PMC... are they that good?

[plastic penguin]

I wrote:

To which you replied:

To dismiss my post with no is arrogant. I tried to politely explain why older listeners might favour bright speakers, but you arrogantly dismissed my comments without thinking.

I’m not an expert, but unlike you I take into account research by experts. As one ages, ones hearing acuity degrades , and in particular one has lower sensitivity to higher frequencies.

Take a look at this graph:

https://www.thelancet.com/cms/10.1016/j.lanwpc.2021.100131/asset/ae98e797-96ca-49ee-9d7b-4eb92e8ceb0e/main.assets/gr1_lrg.jpg

It comes from this research paper in a medical journal:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwpc/article/PIIS2666-6065%2821%2900040-7/fulltext

The graph shows the average hearing sensitivity as a function of frequency for a range of ages. Note how the hearing sensitivity decreases significantly with age, and that the effect is greatest at higher frequencies. The vertical axis is in dB, a logarithmic scale. 3 dB equates to a doubling of sound pressure, and 10 dB to a subjective doubling of the sound volume. As early as the early fifties, average hearing declines by 10 dB at higher frequencies. In your early sixties, it can be down 30 dB, a huge amount. These are averages, someone with some hearing loss would be worse off, and about one third of people in their sixties have some hearing loss beyond the natural decline.

Hence my statement that I have a suspicion PMC are tuned to suit older listeners. In other words, it isn’t that older listeners prefer bright speakers, rather their hearing is such that for them bright speakers sound neutral. And as noted earlier, PMC are usually very expensive which puts them more in the range of older people with more wealth to their name.

I've not dismissed any of your posts, but as @Al ears said, no speaker company makes a product that age-related. You seem to be hung up on age and hearing. I know young people who suffer tinnitus or wax-filled lugs.

As I suggested in a previous post, go and demo a pair of PMCs. You'll then be better qualified to comment.

 

[Noddy]

Precisely, however I very much doubt any manufacturer voices their speakers for a certain age group.
They either fit into your listening room or they don't, simple as...
if expensive speakers are designed for those that can afford them then I wonder when Magico speakers will become available to me....

Unless you have inside information. and I don’t, the truth is we don’t know how PMC voice their speakers. My guess is that the hippy owner decides on the house sound for non professional speakers, but that’s just a guess.

But whether or not they deliberately voice them for older listeners - and of course you might be right that they don’t - the bright characteristic of the ones I’ve heard probably appeals to older listeners for the reasons I gave.

The person who bought my PMCs commented that they sounded bright when he first heard them. Here’s a review of the Prodigy 5 also showing a bright presentation.

PMC prodigy5

Brytyjska firma PMC opiera swoją renomę i rozpoznawalność na dwóch filarach. Po pierwsze, zajmuje się jednocześnie sprzętem do użytku ...

audio.com.pl

Note that I’m not giving a value judgement, people should simply buy what they enjoy, and tell anyone that disagrees where to go. Personally I prefer bright to the opposite.

 

[Noddy]

I've not dismissed any of your posts, but as @Al ears said, no speaker company makes a product that age-related. You seem to be hung up on age and hearing. I know young people who suffer tinnitus or wax-filled lugs.

As I suggested in a previous post, go and demo a pair of PMCs. You'll then be better qualified to comment.

No Al Ears expressed his opinion, just as I expressed mine.

Since you’ve stated what you claim to be a fact, I’d be really interested to see the proof. It’s always good to learn something new.

 

[plastic penguin]

No Al Ears expressed his opinion, just as I expressed mine.

Since you’ve stated what you claim to be a fact, I’d be really interested to see the proof. It’s always good to learn something new.

My opinion is based on owning a pair, that's the only fact I know about PMCs. Instead of bleating like a child, go and listen to some PMCs. Only then will you agree or disagree with my opinion.

You have no interest in demoing a pair, you're more than happy to tap away, criticising others, like most keyboard warriors.

Joys of the internet.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

My previous pmc twenty 21's were highly detailed and a bit on the lean side of neutral....definitely not bright sounding......it's the first thing I noticed when I got the Neat petite classics home......I still miss that timbre of transmission line bass and glorious detail.....I also like the Neats....is it wrong to like lots of other stuff?

 

[Gray]

My previous pmc twenty 21's were highly detailed and a bit on the lean side of neutral....definitely not bright sounding......it's the first thing I noticed when I got the Neat petite classics home......I still miss that timbre of transmission line bass and glorious detail.....I also like the Neats....is it wrong to like lots of other stuff?

Having had the Neat Petite Classic at home to compare with my 21s, I couldn't agree more with that assessment.
To me the PMC is not bright - but compared to some other speakers and especially to listeners with a dislike of open, clear treble, it could easily be described as bright.

All frequencies and all detail need to be properly heard.
A wrong sounding speaker is one that makes an open triangle sound as if it's being grasped between two fingers when struck, some speakers really are that bad.....muted treble - instant no, thank you very much - good only for background music for the 'pipe and slippers' brigade (misguided old and young alike).

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Having had the Neat Petite Classic at home to compare with my 21s, I couldn't agree more with that assessment.
To me the PMC is not bright - but compared to some other speakers and especially to listeners with a dislike of open, clear treble, it could easily be described as bright.

All frequencies and all detail need to be properly heard.
A wrong sounding speaker is one that makes an open triangle sound as if it's being grasped between two fingers when struck, some speakers really are that bad.....muted treble - instant no, thank you very much - good only for background music for the 'pipe and slippers' brigade (misguided old and young alike).

That seas tweeter is/was very very good indeed.....in fact I actually traded in the pmc's for the Neat petite classics.....the pmc's were in excellent condition....the guy's at the shop must have had a good listen to them......I got a txt message from the seller at the shop actually telling me how impressed he was with them......a few months later, said shop were /are selling pmc speakers.

 

[Noddy]

My opinion is based on owning a pair, that's the only fact I know about PMCs. Instead of bleating like a child, go and listen to some PMCs. Only then will you agree or disagree with my opinion.

There’s no need to be offensive.

You have no interest in demoing a pair,

I have said many times in this thread that I owned some PMCs. I’ve demoed numerous examples too.

you're more than happy to tap away, criticising others, like most keyboard warriors.

And yet the person criticising others is you.

 

[Noddy]

To me the PMC is not bright - but compared to some other speakers and especially to listeners with a dislike of open, clear treble, it could easily be described as bright.

And yet objective messurements prove that PMC speakers - or at least those measured - are bright.

All frequencies and all detail need to be properly heard. A wrong sounding speaker is one that makes an open triangle sound as if it's being grasped between two fingers when struck, some speakers really are that bad.....muted treble - instant no, thank you very much - good only for background music for the 'pipe and slippers' brigade (misguided old and young alike).

This sums up the whole problem with most hifi reviews. The author writes some lovely prose extolling the virtues, or otherwise, of the speakers under test, but presents no measurements. Thus the reader is solely dependent on one person’s tastes, and auditory physiology.

Something I do like about Richer Sounds and Sevenoaks is that the staff just tell you to demo the product. I’ve been in shops that gave me sales patter, clearly favouring the more expensive models.

 

[Jasonovich]

That seas tweeter is/was very very good indeed.....in fact I actually traded in the pmc's for the Neat petite classics.....the pmc's were in excellent condition....the guy's at the shop must have had a good listen to them......I got a txt message from the seller at the shop actually telling me how impressed he was with them......a few months later, said shop were /are selling pmc speakers.

The Sea's tweeter I recall buying a pair of those for my DIY two-way cross over speakers. I was using duck dun and feathers stuffed inside polyester pillows for the damping. The extraction of detail from Seas were really good.

 

[twinkletoes]

Its hifi guys take it easy.

The biggest problem I have with PMC is the transmission Line itself. Its doesn't work in all rooms and when it does work it feels a bit lack lustre in my opinion, especially when compared to brands such as Revel (m106) which have an exciting and much stronger presentation. (Which I might add are almost ruler flat with only few small bumps. People really shouldn't sit on this brand and give them a listen.)

Though good the sea's tweeter in these (PMC) comes across even brighter than it otherwise would as the mids I feel are almost none existent and this is the danger of looking at charts they don't tell the whole story.

I was really disappointed with the 20/23's when I had them for extended loan.

Without a doubt one of the worst speakers Ive had in my room along with ATC SMC 19's the reviews just did tally up with my experience at all. And I didn't need measurements to tell me so. Ive listened in many rooms around the house and in other houses and they were just lack lustre.

Newer PMC's I couldn't pass comment.

Just my opinion

 

[DougK1]

And yet objective messurements prove that PMC speakers - or at least those measured - are bright.

This sums up the whole problem with most hifi reviews. The author writes some lovely prose extolling the virtues, or otherwise, of the speakers under test, but presents no measurements. Thus the reader is solely dependent on one person’s tastes, and auditory physiology.

Something I do like about Richer Sounds and Sevenoaks is that the staff just tell you to demo the product. I’ve been in shops that gave me sales patter, clearly favouring the more expensive models.

I've owned PMC's and they never seemed at all bright to me, detailed yes, bright no. The only measurements I trust are the those of my ears when seated in the sweet spot in my listening chair.

 

[Gray]

And yet objective messurements prove that PMC speakers - or at least those measured - are bright.

The majority of those here who've owned PMC are saying that they're not bright.
They've come to that conclusion, not by studying frequency response plots, but by listening.
You can't blame them for using that method 😉

 

[Gray]

...the mids I feel are almost none existent

Most certainly not the case on my PMC.
They don't reproduce the lowest frequencies (what small standmount does?) - but there's nothing else missing.

Importantly, all that they do reproduce is well balanced tonally.
On the other hand, if I was one of those with an aversion to HF - and I do appreciate that some people are virtually allergic to normal treble....then no doubt I would describe them, as tonally bright.

 

[twinkletoes]

Most certainly not the case on my PMC.
They don't reproduce the lowest frequencies (what small standmount does?) - but there's nothing else missing.

Importantly, all that they do reproduce is well balanced tonally.
On the other hand, if I was one of those with an aversion to HF - and I do appreciate that some people are virtually allergic to normal treble....then no doubt I would describe them, as tonally bright.

You're talking to a guy that owns klipsch heritage speakers, the very definition of "bright" to a good few folk so maybe i'm not normal but im certainly not old at 40 years young. Sound sweet as a nut to me.

As I said just my opinion but quite easily the worst speakers (ATC and PMC) i've had in my room. But no, not bright, if anything I found them pretty mellow in that regard.

 

[plastic penguin]

The majority of those here who've owned PMC are saying that they're not bright.
They've come to that conclusion, not by studying frequency response plots, but by listening.
You can't blame them for using that method 😉

How true. I don't care, never have, about graphs, measurements etc etc etc. It's whether they work in your environment and existing kit. That's how I gauge a component

 

[nopiano]

I've owned PMC's and they never seemed at all bright to me, detailed yes, bright no. The only measurements I trust are the those of my ears when seated in the sweet spot in my listening chair.

Interestingly, the typical measured response of PMCs very closely reflects your observations. ‘Bright’ is usually a forward sound around a few kHz, whereas ‘airy’ or ‘detailed’ is higher up the range. It can be quite beguiling, and in a domestic room can allow for the speakers to face straight ahead - like all the best photoshoots show - rather than toed in towards the listener.

These top of the range twenty5 26i are pretty shocking actually. Whole review here, and they are almost ten grand now. Active ATC SCM40 A are considerably better, and cheaper too. All imho, naturally.

Full review here…https://www.hifinews.com/content/pmc-twenty526i-loudspeaker-lab-report

 

[DougK1]

Interestingly, the typical measured response of PMCs very closely reflects your observations. ‘Bright’ is usually a forward sound around a few kHz, whereas ‘airy’ or ‘detailed’ is higher up the range. It can be quite beguiling, and in a domestic room can allow for the speakers to face straight ahead - like all the best photoshoots show - rather than toed in towards the listener.

These top of the range twenty5 26i are pretty shocking actually. Whole review here, and they are almost ten grand now. Active ATC SCM40 A are considerably better, and cheaper too. All imho, naturally.

Full review here…https://www.hifinews.com/content/pmc-twenty526i-loudspeaker-lab-report

View attachment 7865

I don't do charts because I don't really understand them, but I do understand my ears I must say of all the speakers I have owned I have never liked on axis positioning, either straight ahead or max 10 degrees of toe-in. My listening position is far from ideal as I have a wall directly behind me...we have to live within the constraints of our rooms

 

[Noddy]

The majority of those here who've owned PMC are saying that they're not bright.
They've come to that conclusion, not by studying frequency response plots, but by listening.
You can't blame them for using that method 😉

A few people here are saying they are not bright, I find them bright, and one person says they lack in the mids, and to be fair that’s a good description as they have a bass peak, and peak in the highs too. I found my PMCs bright, but also boomy which is explained by that bass peak, presumably an ATL artifact. If you Google you will find countless people describing PMC speakers as bright, which is supported by the frequency response curves. Also the frequency response curves are extremely erratic, deviating massively from a flat horizontal line, indicating that they are strongly voiced, and most certainly not neutral. If people like a strong voicing that’s fine, and different voicings can suit different genres of music. And of course we have to throw in age related changes in hearing.

People will buy what they like, and manufacturers will produce according to demand or go bust. And of course there is the issue of the music press and marketing, but that’s a big rabbit hole.

 

[Gray]

A few people here are saying they are not bright, I find them bright, and one person says they lack in the mids, and to be fair that’s a good description as they have a bass peak, and peak in the highs too. I found my PMCs bright, but also boomy which is explained by that bass peak, presumably an ATL artifact. If you Google you will find countless people describing PMC speakers as bright, which is supported by the frequency response curves. Also the frequency response curves are extremely erratic, deviating massively from a flat horizontal line, indicating that they are strongly voiced, and most certainly not neutral. If people like a strong voicing that’s fine, and different voicings can suit different genres of music. And of course we have to throw in age related changes in hearing.

People will buy what they like, and manufacturers will produce according to demand or go bust. And of course there is the issue of the music press and marketing, but that’s a big rabbit hole.

I know Peter Thomas says he uses speech as an important part of testing - I listen to quite a bit of that - and I've found my PMC to be natural in that respect.

I think the bottom line here is obviously that one man's natural is another man's too bright. Applies just as much to headphones where treble is a real problem to many - the same treble no issue whatsoever to just as many.

I reckon a solution to prevent you making any future buying mistakes Noddy - to avoid you buying another 'failed design':

Checkout the frequency response plots before doing any listening 👍

 

[Noddy]

I reckon a solution to prevent you making any future buying mistakes Noddy - to avoid you buying another 'failed design':

Checkout the frequency response plots before doing any listening 👍

I don’t think I’ve ever used the term ‘failed design’. By all accounts PMC are doing just fine, and their speakers appeal to a large number of people with the wherewithal to buy them, so I’d say that they are successful designs by the metrics that count most for the company,.

My previous bad buying decisions were due to assuming that reviews were credible and reliable, whereas most are no more than opinion disguised as fact. And the marketing behind hifi is decidedly dishonest in my opinion, but then again the shiny suited marketing weasels get away with as much as they legally can when selling any product. It’s just a shame that reviewers aren’t more aware of the factors involved in hifi. They come across as little children in a sweetie shop, which in a way is what they are. Not a bad job if you can swing it.

 

[Gray]

I don’t think I’ve ever used the term ‘failed design’.

Not you Noddy, that was the specific verdict of Amir at ASR - a technically knowledgeable man, regarded as God by many of his disciples, not least on his forum.

Final words on the subject from me:
I've owned several (too many) of the well known and loved English loudspeaker brands - but, more importantly, I've had a fair bit of involvement with the live sound of every type of band and the odd orchestra - no speaker is ever going to do full justice to live sound - but I wish I'd have found such a 'failed design' as my PMCs years ago.

If the God comes up with another one, please let me know 😉

 

[Al ears]

Not you Noddy, that was the specific verdict of Amir at ASR - a technically knowledgeable man, regarded as God by many of his disciples, not least on his forum.

Final words on the subject from me:
I've owned several (too many) of the well known and loved English loudspeaker brands - but, more importantly, I've had a fair bit of involvement with the live sound of every type of band and the odd orchestra - no speaker is ever going to do full justice to live sound - but I wish I'd have found such a 'failed design' as my PMCs years ago.

If the God comes up with another one, please let me know 😉

Perhaps God is deaf?

 

[Gray]

Perhaps God is deaf?

😆
(Well his opinion works for me! - and don't say I'm deaf).

 

[Al ears]

😆
(Well his opinion works for me! - and don't say I'm deaf).

Pardon?