Personal Conclusion

[QuestForThe13thNote]

For cars like rolls Royce or jewellery or fine wines is what that is, but hi Fi and consumer electronics has high elasticity of demand and high depreciation so I doubt you could fit it into desirable classes of goods like jewellery or rolls Royce cars.

Price elasticity is a change in price leading to a more than proportionate change in demand, certainly if a £15k hi Fi sound could be achieved for £1k, people wouldn’t pay £15k.

Oh yes they would. If they are not aware of the existance of the £1k system. Or if in being aware they still choose not to buy. Reasons for this include:

they don't like the looks of the £1k system

they don't like the size of the speakers

they prefer to buy their audio equipment brand new from certain dealers

they want minimal buying hassle

they prefer not to plan their holidays around collecting hi-fi bargains from various parts of the UK / Europe / the world

they prefer to buy stuff where they've read 5 star reviews

they have an emotional attachment to one or more brands or one or more genres (technology type) of equipment - eg tonearms with bamboo arm wands.

their wife doesn't like the £1k system

they are not willing to do any DIY

they want a guarantee

they think the £1k system will be unreliable

the £1k system requires more tweaks / attention - eg cartridge or valve replacement

Many of these are quite valid and logical reasons.

It's nice to have a choice.

£15k systems that will do the job of playing music well.

£1k systems that will do the job better, but may have drawbacks in non-sound-quality aspects

£15k systems that will do the job a little bit better than the £1k system and will still have "drawbacks" not associated with the original £15k system

the dealer will no doubt make them aware of the £1k system, were it to work better than a £15k one, because the dealer operates in a market too. I think what you are talking about is consumer preference, which is one thing aside from such things as the single preference of sound quality I could apply to my thinking. What you are talking about is the value people place of things. If you don’t think there is value in big floorstanding speaker boxes because they are ugly, you don’t participate in that market, therfore your decisions don’t determine market price for products in that market of floorstanders. This is the point I think you are missing. One person not deciding to buy a hi Fi with floorstanders doesn’t effect the price of floorstanders because they aren’t participating in the market of floorstanders. My example is someone who has the same type of system ie floorstanders and seperates at £1k and those at £15k, ie same type of hi Fi. Therfore the determination of those participating in that market determines price (as well as supply), and it will very much be that if products at £1k can consistently beat £15k products, on features common to those in that total similar market (eg floorstanders), they will sell for much less. This is very logical and common sense, and takes account of how we know market economics works. This idea a £1k amp works as well as one at £10k with same or similar features is to deny market forces on elastic products that depreciate. Very few would pay £10k for a amp if a £1k one does the job, on the specs needed, as well.

 

[Native_bon]

This hi-fi stuff is mostly pride of ownership. See what I got, it's expensive and it rocks. There are those who just see it as a hobby, and with disposable income will tell you how their systems sound 10x better than yours

The Mr know it all makes you feel you have never heard a good expensive system in your life. Yes these systems may sound better but it's not what it's made out to be.

Even the most expensive of systems may be doing most things very right in terms of presentation of music, but even that may not be to everyones liking.

Then you are next hit with the.... Close as possible to the original recording. Really? It all comes down to believability. I think music is so much fun, and it can be a nightmare if people are made to feel otherwise.

Reasonable well designed hi-fi does not need to be super expensive. There is a difference between getting advice to short list a demo and seeking approval of others before buying. The latter happens so much that people do the same mistakes over and over.

Most probably heard what they liked, but probably are not confident enough to follow through with it.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think a lot of it is down to jealousy in hi Fi. I really couldn’t care if a more expensive system outcompetes mine, because I’m happy with what I have, but I’d tend to believe it would outcompete mine. But it’s a stretch to say on the whole that it wouldn’t, for market reasons I gave above, because that’s to then bring in these human factors. Hi Fi has always had lots of people who have the attitude ‘nothing is better than what I have and for the price’ being adverse to any kind of snobbery. What this really is, is jealousy. If all the people on this website became millionaires they wouldn’t be talking arcam a19s, but very different products. Taste is different to performance at a given price. I think it is often what it’s made out to be, some expensive systems I’ve heard in the 50k bracket are very much better in performance for my tastes compared to £1k system or £10k ststem. This is quite obvious at shows.

 

[lindsayt]

the dealer will no doubt make them aware of the £1k system, were it to work better than a £15k one, because the dealer operates in a market too. I think what you are talking about is consumer preference, which is one thing aside from such things as the single preference of sound quality I could apply to my thinking. What you are talking about is the value people place of things. If you don’t think there is value in big floorstanding speaker boxes because they are ugly, you don’t participate in that market, therfore your decisions don’t determine market price for products in that market of floorstanders. This is the point I think you are missing. One person not deciding to buy a hi Fi with floorstanders doesn’t effect the price of floorstanders because they aren’t participating in the market of floorstanders. My example is someone who has the same type of system ie floorstanders and seperates at £1k and those at £15k, ie same type of hi Fi. Therfore the determination of those participating in that market determines price (as well as supply), and it will very much be that if products at £1k can consistently beat £15k products, on features common to those in that total similar market (eg floorstanders), they will sell for much less. This is very logical and common sense, and takes account of how we know market economics works. This idea a £1k amp works as well as one at £10k with same or similar features is to deny market forces on elastic products that depreciate. Very few would pay £10k for a amp if a £1k one does the job, on the specs needed, as well.

If the dealer does not stock the £1k system, they will probably NOT make the customer aware of it. Divide and conquer applies very much to the world of hi-fi.

Please note, I used bold for the most important point in my previous post.

Funny about you mentioning £1k vs £10k amplifiers. Earlier this year I went to a phono stage bake-off featuring stages costing from £200 to £10,000. The £10,000 (new) stage was a fine sounding one. It sounded as good as a £800 (new) one. It got me thinking "When comparing these, is there a single reason I'd pay a penny more for the £10k one over the £800 one?... The answer is No, I can't hear any differences that are worth paying any money for." Therefore the £800 stage was the winner of that bake-off. Equally good and a lot cheaper.

Different designers have different specialities and abilities. Different companies have different cost and pricing structures. Sometimes, a more expensive component (resistor, capacitor, transistor, valve, transformer etc) will not make an amplifier sound better. Pure and simple design can sound better than over-complex, over-engineered design.

And then there was the bake-off that featured £75,000 new speakers. Good sounding and great looking speakers (to my eyes). Similar pattern repeated. But with sonic equalers starting at 1% (used price) of the cost instead of 8%.

AFAIK the £10k phono stage and £75k speakers are both still on the market and still being bought.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

What was the system (speakers and amps) used in the comparison of the two phono stages, and what amps were used in the comparison of the two speakers Lindsayt?

 

[lindsayt]

They were Audio Talk forum bake-offs. Check out the phono stage bake-off and Yorkshire Hi-fi Club threads over there in the Assorted Stuff section.

 

[lpv]

you’re probably not aware there are second hand modern, small systems for £1k that play from 20Hz to 20kHz, sounds same or better than £15k systems, that smell good, look good, don’t hiss, you don’t have to plan holiday to collect it, wife would love the look, you don’t need dealers or hassle and if you insist you can upgrade this or that for little money..

speaking of diy: you could try to eliminate the XVI century smell from your ev sentry churches; but than we cannot forget we’re in england where people put carpets in kitchen and bathrooms

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Reply #56

I think the types of systems at bake offs don’t tend to be the very high end systems at shows, which often sound sublime, that you don’t tend to get in the average audio t or Sevenoaks etc. Very few people can afford the likes of Wilson Benesch discovery speakers etc. So it wouldn’t surprise me if the 10k phono stage would not show its better than with cheaper speakers etc, if it performs really well at its price, do you get the benefit out of it? Ie system integration.

 

[lpv]

glade most probably won’t help

you need more fundamental solution

 

[lindsayt]

you’re probably not aware there are second hand modern, small systems for £1k that play from 20Hz to 20kHz, sounds same or better than £15k systems, that smell good, look good, don’t hiss, you don’t have to plan holiday to collect it, wife would love the look, you don’t need dealers or hassle and if you insist you can upgrade this or that for little money..

I'm fully aware of that.

All you need to do is pick a wholly mediocre £15k system. EG one featuring Wilson Benesch speakers. And then your slightly less mediocre £1k system will sound better.

If on the other hand, the £15k system featured Steve's red and black DIY'd speakers that won the September Audio Talk speaker bake-off, then no, your small £1k system would not stand a chance.

 

[lindsayt]

glade most probably won’t help

you need more fundamental solution

...And lpv. Feel free to make a mature contribution to this thread.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

you’re probably not aware there are second hand modern, small systems for £1k that play from 20Hz to 20kHz, sounds same or better than £15k systems, that smell good, look good, don’t hiss, you don’t have to plan holiday to collect it, wife would love the look, you don’t need dealers or hassle and if you insist you can upgrade this or that for little money..

I'm fully aware of that.

All you need to do is pick a wholly mediocre £15k system. EG one featuring Wilson Benesch speakers. And then your slightly less mediocre £1k system will sound better.

If on the other hand, the £15k system featured Steve's red and black DIY'd speakers that won the September Audio Talk speaker bake-off, then no, your small £1k system would not stand a chance.

sometimes I don’t think people live in the real world on this forum. Wilson Benesch discovery 2 speakers as mediocre. What the what?

 

[lpv]

it’s a personal conclusion thread *dirol*

 

[lindsayt]

sometimes I don’t think people live in the real world on this forum. Wilson Benesch discovery 2 speakers as mediocre. What the what?

Yes, you have a point there.

Describing them as mediocre is being overly diplomatic. When you consider the retail price, they are tragically poor sounding speakers.

They are the sort of speakers, that if they were a film, Mark Kermode would give them the sort of ranting review that he normally gives to Michael Bay movies.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

It seems to me you have a consideration for and bias against speakers being poor if they have any expense to them. Are you talking about value not expense?

 

[stereoman]

I personally don't see what's the contraversy in your observation. Most people (not in this hobby) can't tell a difference between a plastic 100 quid 5.1 LG setup you get free with your 40"+ TV and a pair of Sonus Fabers costing 5K and up. The main thing is to demonstrate with equal loudness, otherwise louder wins every time.

There's a learning process when you enter this 'sport' of ours. You learn what distortion, sibilance, difference in attack, speed, phase etc. sounds like. You become overly sensitive at very minute differences and you exagerate them (night and day), sometimes finding differences where they don't even exist. The audiophile is a critical aka anal listener. I've been oversensitized and desensitized over how kit sounds multiple cycles through the years. I currently don't care how wire or digital makes a difference, but few years ago I was really interested and experimented with them and heard actual differences.

In the evolutionary process, the overly analytical, paranoid and cautious survived at a higher rate than those who thought the very minute rustling in the grass was probably nothing to worry about. Maybe it was nothing 9/10 times, but that one time mattered who gets to have progeny and who becomes lunch. Now that we don't deal with savana problems, we can excercise our biological features in a hobby. Some do physical sports, some play chess, we get paranoid over wire.

Nicely explained...

 

[lindsayt]

It seems to me you have a consideration for and bias against speakers being poor if they have any expense to them. Are you talking about value not expense?

I'm not sure I fully understand the question you're asking. Feel free to rephrase it.

 

[Vladimir]

It seems to me you have a consideration for and bias against speakers being poor if they have any expense to them. Are you talking about value not expense?

He is a big proponent of high price TOTL hifi kit that require forklifts to move about. I think he is judging them on performance alone. They are small bookshelf speakers after all, regardless of how high premium fit'n'finish they have. IMO they score 10/10 on looks. But... veneer doesn't make music, just enhances the experience a bit.

 

[insider9]

It seems to me you have a consideration for and bias against speakers being poor if they have any expense to them. Are you talking about value not expense?

He is a big proponent of high price TOTL hifi kit that require forklifts to move about. I think he is judging them on performance alone. They are small bookshelf speakers after all, regardless of how high premium fit'n'finish they have. IMO they score 10/10 on looks. But... veneer doesn't make music.

I'm a big fan of sound per pound (both £ and lb)

:biggrin:

 

[Vladimir]

It seems to me you have a consideration for and bias against speakers being poor if they have any expense to them. Are you talking about value not expense?

I'm not sure I fully understand the question you're asking. Feel free to rephrase it.

He's asking if you're Scotish? *biggrin*

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I want to be dead soon.

 

[Vladimir]

I want to be dead soon.

I felt the same after the big sunday lunch. But the nap helped.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’ve got the drugs I need from online, it’s just I’m paranoid about what will happen. I’ve bought 15 grams of powdered Nembutal (sodium pentobarbital) and anti-emetic drugs to stop myself throwing it up. Also testing kit to test its purity. They tell you how to get it in the peaceful pill handbook. I geuss I know there is nobody to really help, this is just vindication of that.

 

[Vladimir]

I’ve got the drugs I need from online, it’s just I’m paranoid about what will happen. I’ve bought 15 grams of powdered Nembutal (sodium pentobarbital) and anti-emetic drugs to stop myself throwing it up. Also testing kit to test its purity. They tell you how to get it in the peaceful pill handbook. I geuss I know there is nobody to really help, this is just vindication of that.

Stupid is what stupid does.

For me life is too precious, I need to live to see the 2020 US elections.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

How not to get upgraditis is the hard part.

Why would you not want to have upgraditis?

Experts say it causes bankruptitis.

it does I’ve been there before by being carried away buying very expensive hifi components and believe me it’s not nice losing everything because you got carried away .

I think of myself as being lucky to have a nice setup again and you have to learn to be content with what you have in the end but it was all saved for which took me ages but worth the effort and at least I learned my lesson and not borrowed the money which is very easy to do as much as I would love to own some Dali epicon 6s I can’t have them unless I save for them so will have to dribble over the pictures instead .