Vladimir said:
I think what people are prepared to pay dictates prices in the determination of market price, otherwise people don’t pay, it doesn’t reach that price. In goods where the price exceeeds the cost of goods by some margin, in premium goods, it’s ever more important. But I don’t think people quite realise what goes into a business selling to a niche premium market. It will cost. Just like staying in a premium inn versus a bespoke hotel.
i don’t think £15k gets you mediocrity. It’s roughly what my system cost and I definetely define it above average quality for a hi Fi of any type, judging on what I’ve owned in the past all the way down to £300 set ups. Mediocre is all the hi Fi iPod docks and all in one cheapy hi Fi systems sold in curry’s etc.
We all live in this crazy price fallacy. Imagine yourselves this. You've won an amp worth of 25.000 Pounds. You put it on your system, thinking, God it sounds great but wait a sec 25 Grand ? I'll sell them on and buy an Accuphase for 5.000 with about 20 Grand in pocket. It will be also great and sound great. The price increase has nothing to do with quality as such but with possibility of buying / selling only a few pieces to people who want to have a uniqe thing so that they know other ones won't buy them unless they are rich enough. Mind, that 80% of all HiFi systems should be about 50% cheaper than they really are.
I know I have not discovered anything new...
I know I have not discovered anything new...
For cars like rolls Royce or jewellery or fine wines is what that is, but hi Fi and consumer electronics has high elasticity of demand and high depreciation so I doubt you could fit it into desirable classes of goods like jewellery or rolls Royce cars.
Price elasticity is a change in price leading to a more than proportionate change in demand, certainly if a £15k hi Fi sound could be achieved for £1k, people wouldn’t pay £15k.
Price elasticity is a change in price leading to a more than proportionate change in demand, certainly if a £15k hi Fi sound could be achieved for £1k, people wouldn’t pay £15k.
And to newlash09 - hearing is adaptable only for a certain period of listening. You, in other words, "impose your brain to listen as if you wished to listen". This way you can fool your brain into thinking that it sounds (starts to sound) great. Make a nice 3 day pause in listening, come back to it and you'll see it sounds as crap as before...If not - then it is a right system and you have not strained your brain into liking it. Happens very rarely unfortunately. The one more thing is acoustical trimming. I.E. we all have our special sound predilaction and once we put the system into a new room , house etc. this sound comes different because we are not actually able to trim our systems to the point we like the sound. Mind please, that this is much better with expensive loudspeakers etc. where almost all of them has special tweeter, bass, mid sensitivity inbuilt adjustments where ordinary speakers lack them (?) Have no clue why....on the other hand all actives have them too. Why do they get rid of them in passive speakers ? German make Nubert is a mid range level for every pocket and they imply treble boost adjustments into almost every passive speaker of theirs.
stereoman said:
the price increase has to do with perceived quality of the buyer otherwise a number of people in the market wouldn’t swap from the accuphase to what they perceive to be better, to lead to that higher market price of another good. Absolutely. Rolls Royce cars don’t sell for £10k but ford fiestas do.
What you are describing stereoman is a common perception in hi Fi, that quality stops at a particular brand, in the eye of the beholder. There are very human reasons why we think this. I could hypothetically think nothing beats what I’ve got in my Hi Fi, but live with a system which is very good in a different price brakcet, maybe £50k, id not be able to say to you it’s not better, until I’ve lived with it or heard it for some time and have reserved judgement, that if I had the money, Id then be able to form a judgement on if i keep it and it’s a worthwhile purchase. I suspect I’d be saying it is worth it, but is it value? But value changes as ones affordability is higher. To someone who owns a Ford Focus rs and earns £40k a year versus someone who owns a Ferrari and earns £1millon a year, we clearly see value is totally different. The focus owner will say that the Ferrari isn’t worth it, but put them in with a million salary, where they might then go for their car? This same thing perpetuates attitudinally in hi Fi.
newlash09
Well-known member
I have heard a active setup of yamaha's hsr12's. And those don't compare in anway to my setup in price. Even my dac is more expensive than a pair of them. But they really blew everything off the street. I don't believe in defending the kit I have. Things are what they are. So I don't necessarily think that we have to believe that a particular A being cheaper than a particular B is inferior.
newlash09
Well-known member
There will be exceptions but on the whole I doubt that, if you lived with them for a while.
id also be the last person to defend the kit I have, if something of similar quality could be consistently achieved more cheaply. But often it’s possible to say something Sounds as good as ones system or better for same price, for instance at a show, but I’d be careful as the tests needs to be done a to b where it becomes very obvious - at home.
at the cyrus event last week they demoed a stereo 200 and mono x300 power amps. To me it sounded different but not massively different to start with. But get it back home it’s a different story. Your acoustic environment, speakers, sources, cables, you’ll pick everything out. I thought my power amps were on par to much cheaper amps in the range, when in the shop, but get them home, totally different.
id also be the last person to defend the kit I have, if something of similar quality could be consistently achieved more cheaply. But often it’s possible to say something Sounds as good as ones system or better for same price, for instance at a show, but I’d be careful as the tests needs to be done a to b where it becomes very obvious - at home.
at the cyrus event last week they demoed a stereo 200 and mono x300 power amps. To me it sounded different but not massively different to start with. But get it back home it’s a different story. Your acoustic environment, speakers, sources, cables, you’ll pick everything out. I thought my power amps were on par to much cheaper amps in the range, when in the shop, but get them home, totally different.
QuestForThe13thNote said:
I believe you have a really nice sounding setup - being a Cyrus fan myself I'm pretty sure. But the thing is - Cyrus has a very adequate price relation to their products, Accuphase as well. But come on, a 25K amp for example. I'm sure the difference between Accuphase E260 and this crazy priced amp will be in 0,1%. They sure won't be using any NASA components - Accuphase already use very good quality circuit boards and other components...So again, a price pumping on purpose so that you can have something what other do not have - and it won't be much about the sound. To come back to what I earlier said, have you noticed some HiFi shops discounts ? Look how much really the products worthy are and what Original Price was :
For example guys...even if used...
http://www.centralaudio.co.uk/index.php?page=products&id=9799
I don’t think cyrus would be able to survive if they didn’t charge such prices. It’s very much a function of the fact you are paying for very good quality sound, well beyond the mass market offerings. As such the demand is low and supply low, so price must be high. Simple economics. Not many people buy these amplifiers in the scheme of things, also with brands of a similar market like naim and arcam as well.
I doubt that on such an amp ie 0.1 But I agree with you that law of diminishing returns always comes in so a 10 k amp is never 10times better than a 1k one. So you often tend to get less value as price increases but that’s often the case with lots of things eg like cars. But you can easily buy amps at £10k that sound better than £5k ones, for that matter, £20k better than £10k ones.
those prices are used items, and they will always do that if they are not shifting. I suspect they’ve probably hiked them high to start with.
I doubt that on such an amp ie 0.1 But I agree with you that law of diminishing returns always comes in so a 10 k amp is never 10times better than a 1k one. So you often tend to get less value as price increases but that’s often the case with lots of things eg like cars. But you can easily buy amps at £10k that sound better than £5k ones, for that matter, £20k better than £10k ones.
those prices are used items, and they will always do that if they are not shifting. I suspect they’ve probably hiked them high to start with.
newlash09
Well-known member
I always think the effects of hi Fi can be subtle on first occasion of listening, external to normal environment, and without much playing time, but when you get used to it in your own environment, it’s a totally different kettle of fish. That’s why you can hear amps in dealers with the speakers you own and not think much difference, but get them home it’s different. Also at shows you can hear all the speakers, some of which are cheaper, and think they seem to sound better than my set up, but do they really? What’s it like if you got them home. There is also an element of making a comparison and reference point. If you compare two systems at home, you can make a direct comparative judgement, but at a show or in a dealer in a different acoustic environment you have not much of a reference to compare becaus your system is not sitting there with the same room layout, at your disposal. I think this is a very important point and it’s why I’ve often thought that something sounds similar or comparable in a dealer, but not so at home. Throw into the bargain unfamiliar speakers as well, even more of this can happen. This is why I think it’s possible to think something very much cheaper can be better, but hi Fi is a fickle thing and comparative judgements need to be done properly. I think there is also an element of hearing bing not the best sense compared to our visual acuity. If you compared a 560 tv with a 1080 One it’s, a much more obvious comparative judgement, and less so with drawing disparities with hi Fi and hearing.
newlash09
Well-known member
QuestForThe13thNote said:
This is so called - initial instant impression. This is what sellers make money on. Right. I have worked on this. Really when you (for example) go to a demo room in a HiFi shop or to a HiFi show you get impressed instantly thinking - wow ! This is dangerous. I have taken a different approach and it really works. When I'm supposed to go to a show or demo a new pair of speakers or any component - I take it easily and take it for granted it is only an average piece of stuff. It really works. Your impressions will be stabilised in no time and everything much more poised what will give you a much better judgment. Anyway mind that almost any shop uses tricks to improve the sound. Hidden acoustic panels, special positioning etc. Have you noticed how many show rooms have acoustic panels on the walls ?
Vladimir said:
I think this is an interesting thought.
It also has me wondering, how often people could put together their system for the same budget, but get much more enjoyment out of it with different components ie. Brands that they didn't/couldn't get to hear, or weren't even aware of....and yes I know you can't put together a system of brands that you don't know about. *unknw* *biggrin*
insider9
Well-known member
Good point. Most are comfortable within what they know well. People don't challenge their beliefs as often as they could and stick to familiar brands/concepts. It's not a criticism just an observation. And there's no better way of doing it just preferences. But I think people would be surprised what's out there if they stepped out of their comfort zone.
I embrace the obscure and different. It's a lot of fun. I never look for an end but embrace the journey. I like the fact we can achieve similar results with different gear. The most I've learned about what I like was by buying things I didn't understand or thought I wouldn't like with traits I didn’t think were important to me.
But I also want to go through the usual suspects. Including Cyrus, I'm yet to own. In a demo I didn't get what Cyrus was about but neither did I with Roksan. Only after I've bought Roksan amp (your fault Vlad) I understood what it was that people enjoy about their sound. This is what Quest was alluding to and I completely agree. To fully understand a bit of kit you usually need weeks/months in a familiar setting not hours in an unfamiliar environment.
I embrace the obscure and different. It's a lot of fun. I never look for an end but embrace the journey. I like the fact we can achieve similar results with different gear. The most I've learned about what I like was by buying things I didn't understand or thought I wouldn't like with traits I didn’t think were important to me.
But I also want to go through the usual suspects. Including Cyrus, I'm yet to own. In a demo I didn't get what Cyrus was about but neither did I with Roksan. Only after I've bought Roksan amp (your fault Vlad) I understood what it was that people enjoy about their sound. This is what Quest was alluding to and I completely agree. To fully understand a bit of kit you usually need weeks/months in a familiar setting not hours in an unfamiliar environment.
insider9
Well-known member
insider9 said:Why would you not want to have upgraditis?Vladimir said:
Experts say it causes bankruptitis.
Oh yes they would. If they are not aware of the existance of the £1k system. Or if in being aware they still choose not to buy. Reasons for this include:QuestForThe13thNote said:
they don't like the looks of the £1k system
they don't like the size of the speakers
they prefer to buy their audio equipment brand new from certain dealers
they want minimal buying hassle
they prefer not to plan their holidays around collecting hi-fi bargains from various parts of the UK / Europe / the world
they prefer to buy stuff where they've read 5 star reviews
they have an emotional attachment to one or more brands or one or more genres (technology type) of equipment - eg tonearms with bamboo arm wands.
their wife doesn't like the £1k system
they are not willing to do any DIY
they want a guarantee
they think the £1k system will be unreliable
the £1k system requires more tweaks / attention - eg cartridge or valve replacement
Many of these are quite valid and logical reasons.
It's nice to have a choice.
£15k systems that will do the job of playing music well.
£1k systems that will do the job better, but may have drawbacks in non-sound-quality aspects
£15k systems that will do the job a little bit better than the £1k system and will still have "drawbacks" not associated with the original £15k system
insider9
Well-known member
Great post LindsayT! Vlad I like having controlled upgraditis going second hand and as above it does not lead to bunkruptitis. But it does lead to learn-a-lot-itis
Also hi Fi products in consumer electronics are not price inelastic ie lowering price has an inverse relationship to demand.
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