OUTRAGEOUS!!

[gpi]

al7478:
gpi:Don't get done get Dom, the little terrier would have a field day. What is a field day btw?

Gor blimey dont mention him to any retailers. He's out to fleece them all, you know.

I wonder how he gets on with his weekly shop. Must be a nightmare for his other half as he won't buy any washing liquid until he's looked in every other supermarket and then haggled with the manager for half an hour. It would be like: 'Right, you buy these in bulk so they must cost you about 10 pence... you are asking me to pay 79 pence... let's split the difference... I'm a happy chappy, you're a happy manager.. bish bosh.. leave it ooout...'

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

gpi:Hmm, I have now crossed Sony off my short list of LCD TVs.

Hard as it is to reply without sounding biased we have had a great deal of very happy customers with Sony products and the faults recorded show no pattern or unusual numbers compared to those of other manufacturers. We have been dealing with Sony for over three years and faulty from new, year 1 and year 2 faults are all in line with expectations. Clearly one bad experience can put people off but Sony is no worse than the next brand in my experience.

 

[fido87456]

Cidershed:A twelve month guarantee is a twelve month guarantee. What's difficult to understand? LOL.

Sorry but thats just flat out wrong (although many retailers will try and fob people off with the same line hoping they will go away/buy a new product or buy overpriced extended guarantees),

As other people have correctly said, the sale of goods act 1979 states that goods must be of satisfactory quality. An £850 tv breaking after 13 months is not satisfactory (and not a judge in the land would disagree) and so the retailer is liable.

Being outside of the standard 1 year guarantee just makes you have to work a bit harder and write some letters to get them to pay for the repairs (depending on the retailer).

 

[bigblue235]

trevor79:I had my Sony PS3 fail when it was 23mths old. Successfully got Currys to give me agreeable compensation for it quoting the EU directive. Here is the link to my posts,hope it is of help. http://community.whathifi.com/forums/post/286493.aspx

No offense intended, but there are one or two innacuracies in that thread. As there are in this

But the EU directive is a bit of a nightmare topic. Based on my (limited!) understanding of it...

The SoGA was amended by statutory instrument to comply with the EU regulations (sale and supply of goods to consumers 2002) which contain the EU directive (1999/44/EC), so it's the SoGA that should be quoted in disputes, not the EU directive.

None of these regulations/acts actually entitle you to what we're used to as a 'warranty', instead you get what the EU term as a 'legal guarantee'. All that this 'legal guarantee' entitles you to is your statutory rights (fitness for purpose, as described, etc.). In the EU, this is for a period of 2 years, so was termed a '2 year guarantee'. Which was maybe slightly misleading

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/mar/25/consumernews.howtocomplain

A spokeswoman for the DTI says: "There is a common misunderstanding that the EU Directive requires a two-year guarantee to be given, but that is not the case."
Government RIA on EC directive 1999/44/ec

It is possible that the harmonisation of all consumer rights onto a two years liability period might perpetuate the myth of a "two years guarantee" that has dogged the Directive.

So, the belief that goods must be supplied with a 2-year warranty is incorrect. Warranties are pretty much unaffected, and they can be as long, or as short, as the manufacturer/retailer decide. There is no obligation for any warranty to be offered at all. The issuing of a 1-year warranty with a product is just the 'done thing', as are common store policies that you can have a refund for faulty goods within 28 days, or a refund within a year. There's no legal basis in these resolutions, they've just become the norm. You don't need a warranty, you have these statutory rights with or without one.

So, when retailers say "you're out of warranty", they're correct, but that doesn't mean you're out of luck. You just need to use the SOGA and your statutory rights. This will likely be more long-winded and difficult than using a warranty, and the resolutions that can be offered can be quite different from a warranty, but the regulations are there to protect both the retailer and the consumer. Despite what many on the net say, there is still an important place for warranties, especially free ones!

And don't even start me on Dom Littlewood. People's Champion? Pffft! Amateur. Have people never shopped in Glasgow? Every second customer is like him, only even more persistent. And marginally more threatening.

 

[Anonymous]

like I said in an earlier post, if no one else who has bought this model has had the same problem, then it will be very difficult to demand full compensation if the warranty has expired ... that goes to prove that the problem is not a design fault

did the OP use a mains power conditioner? ... has the tv been moved and perhaps dropped (even from a low height) when repositioning?) etc etc

If the OP were to take this to court, it will cost him a lot of money, and these are the sort of questions that will be asked ...

If Sony do fix the prob for no cost, that will be very good service as IMHO they do not have to

I am not a lawyer, but think the OP should try for full compensation, and if that fails, I would not persue the matter further ....

take it on the chin and write it off as a bad experience ... its not worth the hassle

 

[bigboss]

dim_span:

like I said in an earlier post, if no one else who has bought this model has had the same problem, then it will be very difficult to demand full compensation if the warranty has expired ... that goes to prove that the problem is not a design fault

did the OP use a mains power conditioner? ... has the tv been moved and perhaps dropped (even from a low height) when repositioning?) etc etc

If the OP were to take this to court, it will cost him a lot of money, and these are the sort of questions that will be asked ...

If Sony do fix the prob for no cost, that will be very good service as IMHO they do not have to

I am not a lawyer, but think the OP should try for full compensation, and if that fails, I would not persue the matter further ....

take it on the chin and write it off as a bad experience ... its not worth the hassle

Even if no one else has bought the product or has faced a similar problem with the product, you would still expect any TV to run faultlessly for at least 2 years.

The consumer is not required to prove anything (mains conditioner etc.). This is clearly mentioned in the EU law.

It's wasn't difficult at all for me to return my 18-month old Sony laptop when it developed a motherboard problem to Amazon for a full refund.

If the retailer refuses it, just send them a letter as advised in the guardian link I posted earlier. If they still refuse, just open a case in the small claims court online. It only costs £25 & can be opened sitting at home without having to furnish any documents. You don't even need a lawyer. When the retailer receives a court order, the retailer will prefer to settle the dispute without going through expensive legal consultations. I've done it twice before (once against my mortgage adviser & once against my 2nd employer) & have succeeded both times without any hassle.

 

[Anonymous]

bigboss:dim_span:

like I said in an earlier post, if no one else who has bought this model has had the same problem, then it will be very difficult to demand full compensation if the warranty has expired ... that goes to prove that the problem is not a design fault

did the OP use a mains power conditioner? ... has the tv been moved and perhaps dropped (even from a low height) when repositioning?) etc etc

If the OP were to take this to court, it will cost him a lot of money, and these are the sort of questions that will be asked ...

If Sony do fix the prob for no cost, that will be very good service as IMHO they do not have to

I am not a lawyer, but think the OP should try for full compensation, and if that fails, I would not persue the matter further ....

take it on the chin and write it off as a bad experience ... its not worth the hassle

Even if no one else has bought the product or has faced a similar problem with the product, you would still expect any TV to run faultlessly for at least 2 years.

The consumer is not required to prove anything (mains conditioner etc.). This is clearly mentioned in the EU law.

It's wasn't difficult at all for me to return my 18-month old Sony laptop when it developed a motherboard problem to Amazon for a full refund.

If the retailer refuses it, just send them a letter as advised in the guardian link I posted earlier. If they still refuse, just open a case in the small claims court online. It only costs £25 & can be opened sitting at home without having to furnish any documents. you don't even need a lawyer. When the retailer receives a court order, the retailer will prefer to settle the dispute without going through expensive legal consultations. I've done it twice before (once against my mortgage adviser & once against my 2nd employer) & have succeeded both times without any hassle.

just speaking from the heart and giving my opion on the matter ... find it strange that there are hardly any other users with the same problem? ... but wish the OP the best of luck

 

[Anonymous]

Haha Miss Very Annoyed. I've had plenty of things go wrong out of warranty but I take responsibility for the decisions I make and accept agreements I make with people when I buy things. Simple. And I don't go round wishing others misfortune just because they don't have the same opinion as myself. Get a grip.

 

[bigboss]

Cidershed:Haha Miss Very Annoyed. I've had plenty of things go wrong out of warranty but I take responsibility for the decisions I make and accept agreements I make with people when I buy things. Simple. And I don't go round wishing others misfortune just because they don't have the same opinion as myself. Get a grip.

If you choose not to exercise your rights, then....well....it's your choice. Part of the agreement is that you're buying a quality product which should last beyond its warranty period. That's exactly why law is on our side. Otherwise, manufacturers will not concentrate on quality & keep churning out products that won't last much beyond warranty, forcing us to either repair them (profit for the manufacturer) or replace them (again, profit for the manufacturer).

 

[mikey2008]

No Sony Centre people when you need them...

 

[Anonymous]

Cidershed:If you choose not to exercise your rights, then....well....it's your choice. Part of the agreement is that you're buying a quality product which should last beyond its warranty period. That's exactly why law is on our side. Otherwise, manufacturers will not concentrate on quality & keep churning out products that won't last much beyond warranty, forcing us to either repair them (profit for the manufacturer) or replace them (again, profit for the manufacturer).

bigboss ... think you are missing the point .... if it was a design problem, many others would have the same problem? ... so perhaps the item was 'misused' or perhaps a power spike could have caused the prob? ... don't know all the facts, so am speculating

point is that the warranty has expired ... the buyer never opted to take additional warranty coverage so in my opinion, it's tough luck (but as I said, I wish him good luck)

 

[laserman16]

mikey2008:No Sony Centre people when you need them...

Can't quite see what its got to do with any Sony centres at all.

They were not the retailer that the op purchased from.

 

[ElectroMan]

dim_span:
bigboss ... think you are missing the point .... if it was a design problem, many others would have the same problem? ... so perhaps the item was 'misused' or perhaps a power spike could have caused the prob? ... don't know all the facts, so am speculating

point is that the warranty has expired ... the buyer never opted to take additional warranty coverage so in my opinion, it's tough luck (but as I said, I wish him good luck)

I think all this talk about warranties and guarantees misses the point! Manufacturers' warranties always say they do not affect your statutory rights - if anything, they're just an extra, but sometimes used by dealers to get out of their obligations.

What you seem to be saying is that everyone should take out an extended warranty, which is just what the people who sell them want, and what every consumer organization says are a waste of money. Fair enough if you're prepared to pay for the convenience (although I'm sure not all warranty claims are accepted), but if you're not, then the Sale of Goods Act and 'fit for purpose' still apply.

Also, your first paragraph seems to assume that if it's not a design problem, then the item must have been misused in some way.

Er, what about manufacturing faults, parts that fail, etc? These are not the fault of the consumer, and may not be the fault of the manufacturer, but they would be responsible for them.

 

[Anonymous]

ElectroMan:dim_span:

bigboss ... think you are missing the point .... if it was a design problem, many others would have the same problem? ... so perhaps the item was 'misused' or perhaps a power spike could have caused the prob? ... don't know all the facts, so am speculating

point is that the warranty has expired ... the buyer never opted to take additional warranty coverage so in my opinion, it's tough luck (but as I said, I wish him good luck)

I think all this talk about warranties and guarantees misses the point! Manufacturers' warranties always say they do not affect your statutory rights - if anything, they're just an extra, but sometimes used by dealers to get out of their obligations.

What you seem to be saying is that everyone should take out an extended warranty, which is just what the people who sell them want, and what every consumer organization says are a waste of money. Fair enough if you're prepared to pay for the convenience (although I'm sure not all warranty claims are accepted), but if you're not, then the Sale of Goods Act and 'fit for purpose' still apply.

Also, your first paragraph seems to assume that if it's not a design problem, then the item must have been misused in some way.

Er, what about manufacturing faults, parts that fail, etc? These are not the fault of the consumer, and may not be the fault of the manufacturer, but they would be responsible for them.

smile as much as you like ... fact remains ... no one else has the same probs ... buyer had the opportunity to get an extended warranty ... and he took a chance and never ...

the item is malfunctioning ... no one else experiences the same prob ... perhaps a power spike could have cause the prob ... perhaps the item has been misused ... who knows?

I come from an engineering background, ... this is not the old days where an old chinese guy with glasses sits at a workbench with a solder iron ... these items are made to very close tolerances by robots (robotics) ...

so, have had my say, and it's not my problem, but wish the OP the best of luck ...

just not too happy that he tries to slag off the place that he bought the item from on an international forum ... sort of makes me feel that he is looking for 'ammunition' to extort them

 

[ElectroMan]

Hmmm, the robots at Philips must have a lot of off days then! I've mentioned in the past a list of Philips items that have failed on me, and within the last few weeks my Philips DVD recorder has gone on the blink, and a Philips micro Hifi in my bedroom has suddenly decided it will no longer play CDs ...

If there were never any faulty items coming out of the major manufacturers then they wouldn't need to bother with warranties nor have repair centres!

I admit it's a potential problem when somebody slags a store or manufacturer off, when they don't have (or take) a chance to reply.

It will be interesting to hear what happens ...

 

[bigboss]

How do you know no one else has the same problem? Only few people like the OP makes the problem known through a forum. If you check on other forums, this is actually a known issue with Sony.

I have exercised my right & have succeeded. It would've been easy for the retailer to prove that a power spike or something made my motherboard go bust.

The EU directive DOES NOT mention anywhere within the law about misuse of goods by the consumer.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=en&numdoc=31999L0044&model=guichett

http://www.wak-tt.com/tt/2yearwarranty1.htm

 

[bigblue235]

bigboss:The consumer is not required to prove anything (mains conditioner etc.). This is clearly mentioned in the EU law

That's not quite true

The consumer obviously doesn't need to prove anything about mains conditioners, etc, But they may have to prove why the product is faulty in the first place. The EU directive introduced the 6 month reversed burden of proof. Within 6 months, the goods are presumed to be defective, and it's the retailers duty to show why they're not, or they must offer compensation. After that period this 'burden of proof' is reversed, and if the retailer queries the case, the consumer can fairly be asked to demonstrate why the goods are inherently faulty.

They may not ask you to prove your case (as has happened with your products) but they can, if they so wish. It's quite common to be asked to produce an engineer's report, for instance.

The EU directive DOES NOT mention anywhere within the law about misuse of goods by the consumer.

It doesn't need to. You can only claim if the goods fail to conform to contract. So, if you are responsible for their non-conformity, you don't have a case. It doesn't make reference to goods that won't last for 2 years, either. But again, it doesn't need to, as if a product lasts a fair time and fulfils it's purpose, it has conformed to contract whether or not it's lasted 2 years.

ElectroMan: Fair enough if you're prepared to pay for the convenience (although I'm sure not all warranty claims are accepted), but if you're not, then the Sale of Goods Act and 'fit for purpose' still apply.

Indeed, but there can be some major differences in what you're entitled to in compensation, which is a factor many don't seem to appreciate. The SoGA doesn't really work like a warranty. I don't want to get dragged into yet another warranty debate, but....

IMO warranties still have a place, if chosen wisely. I don't see any point in 1-2 year warranties, but 5 year warranties sometimes work well. A 4.5 year old TV may only be worth £50 compensation under SoGA, but with a warranty, the same TV may be repaired or more likely replaced.

 

[Anonymous]

Cidershed:Haha Miss Very Annoyed. I've had plenty of things go wrong out of warranty but I take responsibility for the decisions I make and accept agreements I make with people when I buy things. Simple. And I don't go round wishing others misfortune just because they don't have the same opinion as myself. Get a grip.

Actually My name on here is very annoyed not "miss very annoyed " so you got that wrong for a start. Hope you will take responsibility for that. But then that is no surprise because your knowledge of consumer law is also wrong.

Personally I think you are a troll. This site is for advice and you give no advice just a rather arrogant gloating at this persons problem. You obviously have nothing constructive to say other than tell us what a genius you are and how you never make any mistakes. Well, good for you, but I don't think many people are that interested in your so called brilliance.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Can everyone please calm down and stop screaming 'troll' every time someone says something with which they don't agree.

This thread heading off the rails at some speed - locking looms...

 

[Anonymous]

bigboss:

I have exercised my right & have succeeded.

Go Tiger Go! ...

we need you in parliment!

like I said, not my prob, .... just gave my opinion

 

[bigboss]

dim_span:

we need you in parliment!

Hmmm........that's an interesting career change for me!

I don't have ducks.....but I have some fishes in my pond.......can I claim expenses on fish food??

I need to know my rights you see.......

 

[Anonymous]

Have been following the thread with some interest.
I am one of the people who have got a successful result off a national retailer by using the EU directive 1994/44/EC.

The difference with this is that the customer doesn't have to provide at his own cost an engineers report (which has to be done with the SoGA.) Furthermore the SoGA is in addition to and NOT instead of the EU directive.

I have copied two posts off my own thread on this matter below.

Re: 2 Year Guarantees on all purchases

Chased Currys up today as I haven't heard anything from them.
Found out by accident that I was given incorrect address details. It was only when I phoned them back asking for a E Mail address that I found I was given a incorrect PO Box No AND Postcode.
It will be interesting to see the response.

Dear Sir/Madam

Further to my letter (3-08-09) I discovered today on phoning that it had not been received, further more two people (Mike Birks and Francis) gave me incorrect address details and confirmed incorrect details to me!
No wonder my letter went astray.

Hence me preferring to now E Mail.

My Sony PS3 receipt (187818) is dated 02/08/07 and I expected a quality item costing £424 to be reliable and in full working order for many years. The laser failing within two years is not acceptable.
Previous contact with Sony service and under advisement done a full reset to the machine has not fixed the problem of Blue ray films freezing just after starting up. Sony have told me the Blue Ray Laser is defective and it cannot be repaired and given me a Ref 1514439.
This has been excepted by yourselves as proof of defect and should be found on your recorded notes.

EC directive 1994/44/EC creates a minimum period of two years in which a faulty product can be returned with no onus of prove on the consumer. I expect you to accept your liability as the retailer and either replace or refund me my costs.

The Daily Mail and Guardian have recently run stories on this and retailers like Tescos, John Lewis are applying the EU directive.

In light of the misdirection given to me I look forward to a speedy response.

Yours faithfully

Posted on Tue, Sep 15 2009, 10:47 AM
296304

Re: 2 Year Guarantees on all purchases
Got a result!

Had no response to my letter and last two E Mails so yesterday went into my local Currys and spoke to the manager.

Took with me all my copies and explained the situation and disapointment in having no reponse at all. He was aware of the EC directive and said he would take the matter up and get back to me ASAP.

In less than 2 hours got a phone call from someone senior at customer services, who had managed to find my letter sent along with my E Mails.
We talked and came to an agreement which I am happy with and will be receiving Gift vouchers for an amount I have been asked to keep confidential.

Well done Currys........we got there in the end!

 

[bigblue235]

Hi, Trevor. As I said earlier, there were one or two innacuracies in your thread. I'm not picking holes here, just clarifying things

trevor79:Have been following the thread with some interest. I am one of the people who have got a successful result off a national retailer by using the EU directive 1994/44/EC.

The EC directive is 1999/44/EC. You don't really need to know that anyway, or quote it. There's really nothing special or new about it, despite what some self-proclaimed consumer guardians make out. Our SoGA was amended back in 2003 to comply with the EU regulations (Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002) which the 1999 directive formed part of. So, you just need to refer to the SoGA.

The difference with this is that the customer doesn't have to provide at his own cost an engineers report (which has to be done with the SoGA.)

EC directive 1994/44/EC creates a minimum period of two years in which a faulty product can be returned with no onus of prove on the consumer. I expect you to accept your liability as the retailer and either replace or refund me my costs.

That's incorrect, I'm afraid. The period in which you can return a product with no 'burden of proof' is within the first 6 months according to the EU directive, and in this regard it's precisely the same as the SoGA, for the simple reason that we didn't have this law in the UK until the EU regs were added to our legislation. Within 6 months the retailer must accept goods are inherently faulty, unless he can demonstrate otherwise. After 6 months, reversed burden of proof, consumer may have to demonstrate why the goods are inherently faulty.

The consumer doesn't have the right to automatically expect a remedy, based purely on having a faulty product, at anytime outwith those initial 6 months. This is due to the fact that not every faulty product is the result of faulty manufacture. It could be faulty due to mis-use, wear and tear, having fulfilled it's expected lifespan, and so on.

So, there has to be an inherent fault in the product, and as such, until this is proven, the retailer have the right to request some form of evidence to support your claim. This is where the engineers report is commonly brought in, as it is one way of proving the nature of the fault. If the report suggests an inherent fault, you can proceed, and you can also insist on being compensated for the cost of obtaining a report, as the consumer should incur no cost in the process of returing faulty goods (this goes right down to the little things, such as the cost of the petrol used in driving to the store!).

Furthermore the SoGA is in addition to and NOT instead of the EU directive.

No, the EC directive is part of the SoGA, as amended. As such, the SoGA obviously provides far more cover to the consumer than the EU directive on it's own.

 

[Anonymous]

Good on you trevor! i had a PS3 that broke after two years, contacted sony only to be told that the best they could was to supply a recon PS3 for £128 with only 3 months warranty.

I decided to buy a new PS3 in the end, wish now i took it further now.

 

[gpi]

TheHomeCinemaCentre:
gpi:Hmm, I have now crossed Sony off my short list of LCD TVs.

Hard as it is to reply without sounding biased we have had a great deal of very happy customers with Sony products and the faults recorded show no pattern or unusual numbers compared to those of other manufacturers. We have been dealing with Sony for over three years and faulty from new, year 1 and year 2 faults are all in line with expectations. Clearly one bad experience can put people off but Sony is no worse than the next brand in my experience.

Fair point, thanks.