Opinions Please - is it worth adding a turntable to Denon AVR (4310)

[TOPDIV]

I have a Denon AVR 4310 (which has a phono stage) and i'm in no hurry to get rid of as it serves my tv/film watching needs very well. My speakers are B & W 685's and my room is small (roughly 12ft square sound stage). I have recently added an Auralic Aries Mini streamer to the mix to play hi-res music (rather than c.d's) and to my ear it's a huge step up from playing c.d's. I sometimes listen to music through B&W P7 headphones. I am a long wayt removed from being an audiophile (whatever one may be) but i can tell that listening to my streamer through my avr and headphones is significantly more pleasurable than listening tothe same source file through the same headphones but played on my i phone using a Hi Res app (just so you can get an idea about what 'standard' i expect to enjoy).

On a whim after Christmas i decided to get back into vinyl & bought a very old turntable, a Dual cs 505, which is the same make as my last turntable 25 years ago. I bought some 2nd hand records (as my collection had long since dissapeared) and hey presto, i should have been happily back into vinyl..... except it sounded bloody awful, the amp needed turning up so loud that there was a hum always present & even the cleanest of records sounded like they were covered in fluff and dirt (yet they had been cleaned properly with decent quaility cleaner and cloth & no scratches or fluff were visible). A brand new record was purchased and while that definitely sounded a better (i.e less crackle and pop), the hum remains on quiet sections and it just doesn't sound as i was expecting (although the 'richness' of vinyl is still evident and leaves me wanting more). Note: I should add that it is correctly earthed.

So my question is this - if i am not prepared to change amps and i have no room for a seperate dedicated amp, is there anything i can do to get vinyl to sound as i think it should ot am i expecting far too much ? After finally doing some research i am now seriously considering spending £200 - £300 on a 2nd hand Rega Planar 3 from an auction site and adding a £100 - £150 phono stage, like a Schiit Mani to it (to run with exisiting avr and speakers).

Would you expect a significant upgrade in sound quality, even from older records, over the dual (with no phono stage) or am i just throwing money away ? I've had it suggested to me that unless i buy a dedicated amp (suggested product price £2,800!) and a NEW Rega Planar 3 (£625) that i will not get anything to sound any better than my Auralic Streamer. Does that sound right ??

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long winded post but i always feel it's best to get all the facts down !

 

[davedotco]

There are a number of separate issues here...

Firstly, the hum. Is it present when the stylus is not on the record? Does it vary with the position of the arm and cartridge? As much info as possible is required here.

Secondly, is the cartridge stylus OK? Is it all properly setup? Even a new cartridge incorrectly mounted or poorly setup can exaggerate surface noise or produce distortion if tracking badly.

Thirdly, it is quite common to have to use higher settings on the volume when listening to vinyl, as long as it goes loud enough for your needs then it is fine.

Forthly, surface noise can be an issue and the dirtier the record is the worse it gets. The only really effective record cleaner is the type that vacuums off the liquid after cleaning. Applying even a small amount of liquid with a cloth is usually counter productive, it tends to 'wash' the dirt into the grooves where it tends to stick, making things worse.

And finally, the old Duals, particularly those with the proper wooden plinth, are good players. Personally I never found the Rega 3 to be that much better, but I am talking about comparing new units here, s/hand players can be variable. YMMV on this point.

 

[TOPDIV]

Hi Dave, Thanks for quick reply.

The 'hum' is present all the time,although when the arm is still in place and record not spinning it's not very loud and is almost 'felt' more than heard when using speakers. When using headphones it is more noticable. When the record is playing it is obviously more noticable in quieter sections but is not any louder overall. Were i playing a rock track rather than Barbra Striesand it wouldn't be a massive issue in as much as the music would deafen the hum,but again you are aware of it, and i feels like the 'quality' of the sound would be akin to listening to a (decent) FM radio signal back in the 80's perhaps - if that makes sense ?

I'm afraid i am very ignorant when it comes to turntable/cartridges etc so all i can say is that the cartridge is solidly in place (as is the stylus) althogh what condition the stylus is difficult to say as it's so tiny i'm unable to assess it. It's a Technics U25.

 

[iMark]

According to https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=78682 the U25 has a very low output. That could possibly be an answer to the hum problem. I could be wrong though.

 

[davedotco]

If the cartridge is very low output then that will increase the noise level in pretty much all respects.

Record players really are not plug and play, a little expertese is requred to check them out properly, set them up, then evaluate their performance. It is not difficult but it will take time and effort to aquire the necessary skills.

Buying from a compedent dealer, who can do all this for you, is the easy answer but this is not going to be cheap, a new Planar 3 and cartridge is going to cost £500-ish from a Rega dealer, but at least you can rely on it performing correctly.

 

[TOPDIV]

Thanks for the replies - yes, for someone as ill informed about turntables as myself, much the best idea would be to purchase a new turntable from dealer..... if only i could stretch to the £550+ (which may well need to be several hundred pounds more than that if it turns out i also need a phono pre amp).

I think the suggestion that the current cartridge is possibly causing the problem seems sensible, so maybe the best idea would be to purchase a phono pre amp now (around the £100 - £150 mark) and see how the Dual performs with that - or even see if i can find one to borrow from a dealer perhaps ?

Thanks again

 

[Al ears]

Thanks for the replies - yes, for someone as ill informed about turntables as myself, much the best idea would be to purchase a new turntable from dealer..... if only i could stretch to the £550+ (which may well need to be several hundred pounds more than that if it turns out i also need a phono pre amp).

I think the suggestion that the current cartridge is possibly causing the problem seems sensible, so maybe the best idea would be to purchase a phono pre amp now (around the £100 - £150 mark) and see how the Dual performs with that - or even see if i can find one to borrow from a dealer perhaps ?

Thanks again

It would be cheaper to replace your cartridge with any moving magnet that has an output around 5mV. This should cure volume / noise levels.

 

[iMark]

I agree with Al Ears. Before spending any money on an extra phono cartridge I would try a higher output moving magnet cartridge, like the Ortofon 2M Red. It outputs 5.5 mV, more than twice of what your U25 does.

We use the 2M Red with a Yamaha R-N602. It sounds fine. No need for an extra phono cartridge. I'm sure the phono input in your Denon is very decent too. Denon has always had a very good reputation for internal phono stages and are one of the very few manufacturers who never dropped them from their amps.

 

[TOPDIV]

Once again, thanks for the replies.

Plan of action is now to change the catridge first, as suggested.

I'm pleased to see a positive response about the Denon AVR phono stage as i definitely won't be changing that any time soon, s that's good news - thanks for that.

 

[iMark]

As always with HiFi at some point you come across the law of diminishing returns. In your case a good investment to try out first is to replace the cartridge with a higher output. That will make a real and audible difference. You could even decide to invest in more expensive cartridge, like the Ortofon 2M Blue rather than the Red. (That could even be an upgrade path at a later stage. It's possible to use a Blue replacement stylus in a Red cartridge and get the sound of the Blue.)

If you then like the sound of your record player by using the phono input of your Denon I wouldn't change a thing. Obviously you could opt to buy an external phono amp. But would it sound very much better than the Denon? And how much would you have to spend to get a distinctive and audible improvement?

If you're interested, here's some more discussion about the quality of Denon phono stages in AVRs. http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/do-i-need-a-phono-pre-amp.100662/