New tidal

[insider9]

I share the sentiments. As to sonic differences in amplification it's important to consider the rest of the system including the room and how it's all setup. That's where many misconceptions arise. It's not so much about methodology but bad testing conditions that many differences may never be noticed.

People usually notice differences in tonality. In most cases room won't affect these as much. But won't notice differences in imaging, soundstage size as often speakers are setup incorrectly and room provides too many reflections. Won't appreciate differences in dynamics and detail as listening levels are low as playing loudly in highly reverberant rooms is generally unpleasant. This is not even mentioning source, source material, or speakers. However it could go some way to explain why the "all amps sound the same" mantra exist.

Of course, I'm yet to mention these that believe that once certain level of performance is achieved there can be no further improvement. But that's a more philosophical argument than a technical one.

So, if you're of a belief that all amps sound the same, ask yourself have you actually allowed for a fair comparison.

 

[emcc_3]

Using a software equaliser to set tone will make everything sound the same. You even acknowledge as much in your statement. This therefore makes your whole experiment redundant.

It's like trying to identify if a substance is an acids or alkali in chemistry using PHs but only after neutralizing all their PHs to PH7 first and then drawing the conclusion acids and alkalis cannot be told apart based on their PH.

 

[woodbino]

Well not really.

What are we trying to achieve here? The 'best' audio quality possible, right? What is best depends on one's own personal tastes, to some degree. We can probably all agree that some really bad systems sound plain rubbish, distorting the sound and introducing artefact.

However most reasonable systems will perform well, but we may prefer the sound of one system to another. Personal taste.

Now if I can make a £150 amp sound the same as a £1500 amp simply by attenuating or accentuating certain frequency bands, then that means both amps perform the same (in that they are not distorting or clipping the sound) but have different setups in their preamplification... but this can simply be levelled out through an equaliser.

This means both amps 'perform' the same. They are not adding interference, aretfact or clipping. The difference is simply in the frequency responses, which are tuneable.

Why would I then buy the £1500 amp when I can just buy the £150 one and turn up the bass a little (or down)??

 

[emcc_3]

I'm glad your happy but your clearly not being remotely objective.

By applying software equalization you are degrading/colouring the quality of feed before it gets into the amp. Therefore you are limiting what the better amps (not always the most expensive) can really do.

This isn't even a controlled experiment but if it makes you happy fine. Just don't try and pass it off as some light bulb moment when it is merely a confirmation of your preconceived predujuice.

If you were more objective you will have realised all you have proved is the limitisation of the software equaliser you are using.

 

[gasolin]

I still miss a button so i can play all videos, like mtv that play videos most of the time, except with tidal it's just by your favorite artist like currently playing videos from ac/dc. If sombody would make that play all wideos button i would be sooo happy

Often theres many live videos on tidal you all have to specific look for on youtube, on tidal you just have to chose from the 100+ videos, going back (minimize) 30 times or so could be a little tiresome, just let me play all the videos and if i don't like the song i will play the next song,video.

What do you still miss?

 

[woodbino]

All an amplifier does is amplify the input signal. That's all it does. As long as they're working within their operating limits, and are not faulty, they'll sound pretty much the same.

 

[emcc_3]

There are different classes of amps: class a, class a/b, class D and class g to just give some examples. Class a and class D sound distinctly different to each other and have different characteristics. These differences are measurable.

Even within the same topologies they are differences. This is because manfacturers tune to highlight different elements in the feed based on their opinion on what constitutes accurate sound. Again these differences are measurable.

I have a Yamaha as500 and Roksan k3, both class a/b amps. I can assure you both sound strikingly different. The Yamaha is more clinical and drier sounding than the K3. The K3 on the other hand has a richer sound.

Think we have hijacked this thread enough now.

 

[woodbino]

Think we have hijacked this thread enough now.

What was this thread about again?!?

 

[emcc_3]

 

[gasolin]

Has anybody noticed that tidal has started to play alot of video's? If you want to play one, it start with the next video after the first has finished and it doesn't have to be a play list, just one of your favorit artist and it will not only play one video.

I did repuested it or atleast told them about my which of being able to play all video instead of having to go back to watch the next video or just another video.

 

[johnnyboy1950]

Hi gasolin. Talking about amps I note you have the CX60. I ignored the weird review of the CX80 and bought it. Did you have the same dilemma, was it cost or your listening experience or the review that got you to the CX60?

 

[gasolin]

Both the cost and review.

People say or atleast the whthifi review say the CXA80 is more powerfull, not just 20 more watt in 8 ohm, 30 watt in 4 ohm

I felt based on the review and amp of the year 2 times (now it's the Rega Brio) that the CXA60 was the better sounding amp, (couldn't listen to them and not with the emit m10's, i have to long distance to listen to the CXA60/80 and they don't as i already mentioned have the dynaudio emit m10).

The CXA60 was also cheaper with the cp1 phono stage than the CXA80 without the phono stage, even with the cp 1 phonostage and a good quality interconnect from inakustik (premium) it is still cheaper than the CXA80 with no phono stage .

I wouldn't mind more than 2x100 watt in 8ohm but even the yamaha a-s701 has only 2x100 watt in 8ohm, i never felt that the yamaha's came close to the best amps in the different classes something more than a marantz PM6006 but less than a Rega Elex-R.

More than 2x100 watt in 8 ohm i wanted because dynaudio could benefit form having a powerfull amp, also more than 2x100watt would give the amp more power to play loud and clean (not that i have to play extremly loud) but also more power for the bass.

I use 10 db attenuators for my cdplayer and i can adjust the volume,gain from my focusrite soundcard.

Then gain,level is about the same from my pc,cdplayer and turntable, i also have a widdddeeeeeeeeer ranger (volume knob) before the sound is loud (and before theres distortion) meaning when i have it a 12 oclock it's perfectly loud from most song on tidal hifi without any distortion and i hardly ever want to god beyond 12 oclock, instead of having it distort already at 11 oclock ish and only having from about 7-11 oclock to adjust the volume where the sound quickly get's really loud (relative to max power).

With my current upgrade of my speaker cable that changed the balance (fine tune), it now sounds better with a less bright sound characteristic but nowhere near extreme neutral, just a better balanced sound.

 

[insider9]

I use 10 db attenuators for my cdplayer

You do realise this makes the amp work 10 times as hard. Why are you doing it? What output are you getting out of CD Player?

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I use 10 db attenuators for my cdplayer

You do realise this makes the amp work 10 times as hard. Why are you doing it? What output are you getting out of CD Player?

I use -10dB attenuators too...

Not sure of gasolin's reason but mine is to get a more useable sweep on the volume dial, it also has the effect of equalising the cdp and turntable input in relation to volume dial position. Before fitting the attenuators I had a useable range of 07:00-10:00 on the cdp input before it got stupidly loud, this is now 07:00-14:00.

 

[insider9]

Sure that's one way to do it, but 10dB is a lot. And when listening at high volumes on an amp with little power you'd get to clipping really fast.

That's assuming output from your CD player isn't overloading input on your amp. I also attenuate signal due to DSP but usually stick to around 6dB.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Sure that's one way to do it, but 10dB is a lot. And when listening at high volumes on an amp with little power you'd get to clipping really fast.

That's assuming output from your CD player isn't overloading input on your amp. I also attenuate signal due to DSP but usually stick to around 6dB.

Is it not the other way around? I dunno *unknw*

Un-attentuated signal input from my cdp and clipping would manifest itself at around 12:00, with attenuation I can now sweep to 15:00 before the sound approaches hardness. Yes, it has a pants volume pot! Fortunately the Marantz has a very sensitive protection circuit and trips very easily. I seldom play at high levels, max 75dB, which equates to 11 or 12:00 on the volume dial dependent on the DR of the CD.

Marantz amp has a fixed input sensitivity of 2mV for phono and 200mV for the other inputs; cd player has an ouput level of 2.4V (1.8V SACD); network player 2.35V.

If you could you suggest another way around this I am all ears *smile*

 

[insider9]

Assume amplifier of 100Wpc and speakers of sensitivity of 90dB/1W/1m. Max SPL from that system would be 110dB at 1m. Assuming un attenuated signal on the input.

If you attenuate 10dB on the input you can only achieve max SPL of 100dB. You are reducing headroom, there's no way around it. It's pretty much an equivalent of using amplifier with 10Wpc. Your 100Wpc amp works as hard as it would amplifying max singal, but outputs far less SPL as a result of the attenuation.

Sure it does give you a more precise movement of the volume pot. But system's max ouput (SPL) is ultimately lower. Amp will clip earlier (at lower volume) even if it shows up as being with pot turned further.

That's why if you attenuate try to do it the least practical amount you can. Some amps have input sensitivity adjustment. Otherwise it's either doing what you're doing, exchanging the pot, or using external pre-amp.

One of the things I really dislike about many amps is the lack of sensitivity of the volume pot. I see it as poor design.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[gasolin]

Sure that's one way to do it, but 10dB is a lot. And when listening at high volumes on an amp with little power you'd get to clipping really fast.

That's assuming output from your CD player isn't overloading input on your amp. I also attenuate signal due to DSP but usually stick to around 6dB.

Is it not the other way around? I dunno *unknw*

Un-attentuated signal input from my cdp and clipping would manifest itself at around 12:00, with attenuation I can now sweep to 15:00 before the sound approaches hardness. Yes, it has a pants volume pot! Fortunately the Marantz has a very sensitive protection circuit and trips very easily. I seldom play at high levels, max 75dB, which equates to 11 or 12:00 on the volume dial dependent on the DR of the CD.

Marantz amp has a fixed input sensitivity of 2mV for phono and 200mV for the other inputs; cd player has an ouput level of 2.4V (1.8V SACD); network player 2.35V.

If you could you suggest another way around this I am all ears *smile*

The same as my previous answer https://youtu.be/JhuWuTDZiuI?t=20m51s

 

[gasolin]

I use 10 db attenuators for my cdplayer

You do realise this makes the amp work 10 times as hard. Why are you doing it? What output are you getting out of CD Player?

I use -10dB attenuators too...

Not sure of gasolin's reason but mine is to get a more useable sweep on the volume dial, it also has the effect of equalising the cdp and turntable input in relation to volume dial position. Before fitting the attenuators I had a useable range of 07:00-10:00 on the cdp input before it got stupidly loud, this is now 07:00-14:00.

You said it yourself

https://youtu.be/JhuWuTDZiuI?t=20m51s

 

[gasolin]

Assume amplifier of 100Wpc and speakers of sensitivity of 90dB/1W/1m. Max SPL from that system would be 110dB at 1m. Assuming un attenuated signal on the input.

If you attenuate 10dB on the input you can only achieve max SPL of 100dB. You are reducing headroom, there's no way around it. It's pretty much an equivalent of using amplifier with 10Wpc. Your 100Wpc amp works as hard as it would amplifying max singal, but outputs far less SPL as a result of the attenuation.

Sure it does give you a more precise movement of the volume pot. But system's max ouput (SPL) is ultimately lower. Amp will clip earlier (at lower volume) even if it shows up as being with pot turned further.

That's why if you attenuate try to do it the least practical amount you can. Some amps have input sensitivity adjustment. Otherwise it's either doing what you're doing, exchanging the pot, or using external pre-amp.

One of the things I really dislike about many amps is the lack of sensitivity of the volume pot. I see it as poor design.

Hope that makes sense.

*biggrin* *biggrin*

I don'get it, when it's already loud at 10 oclock it's just loud at 2-3 oclock with 10 db attenuators, i wouldn't only use 10 watt if the amp was 100watt, you just turn the volume knob more up and *preved* you have 100 watt, that's in no way different listen to a turntable.

Max voulume 60 watt in 8 ohm or 90 watt in 4 ohm doesn't happen at 5 oclock (max travel of my voulme knob), it would happen alot before 12 oclock from a cdplayer and guess what, with a 10db attenuator it happens about as fast,early as my turntable.

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html

 

[insider9]

Assume amplifier of 100Wpc and speakers of sensitivity of 90dB/1W/1m. Max SPL from that system would be 110dB at 1m. Assuming un attenuated signal on the input.

If you attenuate 10dB on the input you can only achieve max SPL of 100dB. You are reducing headroom, there's no way around it. It's pretty much an equivalent of using amplifier with 10Wpc. Your 100Wpc amp works as hard as it would amplifying max singal, but outputs far less SPL as a result of the attenuation.

Sure it does give you a more precise movement of the volume pot. But system's max ouput (SPL) is ultimately lower. Amp will clip earlier (at lower volume) even if it shows up as being with pot turned further.

That's why if you attenuate try to do it the least practical amount you can. Some amps have input sensitivity adjustment. Otherwise it's either doing what you're doing, exchanging the pot, or using external pre-amp. 

One of the things I really dislike about many amps is the lack of sensitivity of the volume pot. I see it as poor design.

Hope that makes sense.

*biggrin* *biggrin*

I don'get it, when it's already loud at 10 oclock it's just loud at 2-3 oclock with 10 db attenuators, i wouldn't only use 10 watt if the amp was 100watt, you just turn the volume knob more up and *preved* you have 100 watt, that's in no way different listen to a turntable.

Max voulume 60 watt in 8 ohm or 90 watt in 4 ohm doesn't happen at 5 oclock (max travel of my voulme knob), it would happen alot before 12 oclock from a cdplayer and guess what, with a 10db attenuator it happens about as fast,early as my turntable.

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html

 

You clearly misunderstood my point. Oh well.

 

[gasolin]

Assume amplifier of 100Wpc and speakers of sensitivity of 90dB/1W/1m. Max SPL from that system would be 110dB at 1m. Assuming un attenuated signal on the input.

If you attenuate 10dB on the input you can only achieve max SPL of 100dB. You are reducing headroom, there's no way around it. It's pretty much an equivalent of using amplifier with 10Wpc. Your 100Wpc amp works as hard as it would amplifying max singal, but outputs far less SPL as a result of the attenuation.

Sure it does give you a more precise movement of the volume pot. But system's max ouput (SPL) is ultimately lower. Amp will clip earlier (at lower volume) even if it shows up as being with pot turned further.

That's why if you attenuate try to do it the least practical amount you can. Some amps have input sensitivity adjustment. Otherwise it's either doing what you're doing, exchanging the pot, or using external pre-amp.

One of the things I really dislike about many amps is the lack of sensitivity of the volume pot. I see it as poor design.

Hope that makes sense.

https://youtu.be/_ACzGXYpxsA?t=5m21s

 

[gasolin]

Sure that's one way to do it, but 10dB is a lot. And when listening at high volumes on an amp with little power you'd get to clipping really fast.

That's assuming output from your CD player isn't overloading input on your amp. I also attenuate signal due to DSP but usually stick to around 6dB.

NO the amp distorts when it just reaches above max power, when it happens (volume knob) depends on how loud the music your listening to is recorded, sometimes it happens early sometimes it happens later, but on a normal amp most people have, Marnatz,nad,denon, Pioneer,Cambridge audio,rega you name it it will happens around 10-11 oclock if you don't use some sort of attenuator for your cdplayer,pc where most turntables don't distort even at 12oclcok and sound more natural do to no overload of the input signal like with a cdplayer.

 

[insider9]

Which amp will play louder?

1) 100Wpc attenuated at input by 10dB

2) 20Wpc fed signal with no attenuation

Forget preamp stage. Question just about power amps.

 

[insider9]

NO the amp distorts when it just reaches above max power,

No, amplifier distortion exist at ANY volume.