Question New integrated amp suggestions

[OllieC]

I’m looking to upgrade an Arcam SA20 amp. It will be driving a pair of Sonus Faber Lumina 3 floorstanders. Sources are Bluesound Powernode and Rega Planar 3 (I have a separate phono stage).

I want to buy 2nd hand and budget is £800. Thinking perhaps older models of classic amps with a fair bit of grunt.

I basically want an amp that’s going to get the most out of my speakers, which I upgraded after buying the Arcam.

Suggestions please!

 

[matthewpianist]

Your Arcam is a very good amplifier, and it isn't going to be the easiest job in the world to improve on it significantly with an £800 budget, even secondhand.

It would be useful to know more about the areas in which you are hoping to get more from your SFs. Also, when (if) you auditioned the speakers before buying them, what amp was it with?

 

[twinkletoes]

What Mattew said above, but it can be done but the sound will be very different to today's offereings. But as stated you need to figure out what you feel is missing.

anyhow off the top of my head:-

Rotel springs to mind specifically Rotel RB-991 2 Channel Poweramp and ROTEL RC971 PRE AMPLIFIER

but there are many examples of very powerful amps in the rotel range the above is about 50quid over budget.

Then you have NAD THX power amps , NAD 216 THX mix that with a NAD pre or a NAD c320bee and that will be a pretty substantial system. Well under budget.

Even Arcam made pretty monster amps back in the day so may want to start there.

But an often overlooked part of the market are the Uba high-end AVRs from 10-15 years ago that are no good now to the AV crowd but fantastic for stereo use and can be had for an absolute steal. And you'll have all the dac's you can shake a stick at.

For example

Yamaha z11 (pretty expensive still)
Yamaha DSP-AZ1 (on budget)
Arcam
antham

But people are starting to cotton on to the fact these are great amps and prices are creeping up. Food for thought is all.

 

[Horowitz]

Even Arcam made pretty monster amps back in the day so may want to start there.

But an often overlooked part of the market are the Uba high-end AVRs from 10-15 years ago that are no good now to the AV crowd but fantastic for stereo use and can be had for an absolute steal. And you'll have all the dac's you can shake a stick at.

Like the Arcam Solo Movie 5.1 from 2017 - oomph and features to burn, built like a tank and fantastic performance purely as a stereo amp! Should also be £200 or so under budget if you can find one. It garnered 5-star reviews from many respected publications at launch, even at its £2,100 original price. That soon dropped like a stone because the HDMI ports were not 4k compatible for the dedicated Home Cinema crowd. Their loss, my gain!
(If I recall correctly, one particular forum member often relates his 'terrible' experience with one, but mine has been amazing for 5 years now).

 

[OllieC]

Thanks for the responses - some interesting food for thoughts.

In terms of sound improvements I’d like to make- I’d like to get more from the bass output - the SFs are a little light in that area, so an amp that can make the most of the bass.

The sound also gets muddled on busy tracks and it becomes hard to separate the different instruments, as well as place them in the soundstage.

 

[twinkletoes]

Thanks for the responses - some interesting food for thoughts.

In terms of sound improvements I’d like to make- I’d like to get more from the bass output - the SFs are a little light in that area, so an amp that can make the most of the bass.

The sound also gets muddled on busy tracks and it becomes hard to separate the different instruments, as well as place them in the soundstage.

Unfortunately, because you going down the second-hand route these things are going to be hard to test for, one man/womans dynamic and vibrant is another dull and uninspiring

So careful reading is the way. If the SF's seem a little light you need an amp that's really full-bodied Yamaha for example,if there bright you might not like NAD as that can be lively sounding from that time but NAD may be just the thing if your speakers lack sparkle and dynamics though.

SF are made by McIntosh, aren't they? so stands to reason they use their gear to voice their speakers, id read up on the McIntosh sound and see what stands out in those reviews and look for those traits in other brands' reviews. Perhaps look for second-hand McIntosh gear. might be more expensive but I'm sure you can save a little longer.

But you have to remember an amp change is not going to bring night and day differences or even flavour changes that are not noticeable.

If you have a muddled sound stage id suggest you play with your speaker's position and yours. The lightness you hear might be that you sitting in a null. Do they fatten up as you move around the room or closer to them?

Id try all the free things first and make sure you're following the "rules" of speaker placement as best you can.

No amp change or money spent will change the sound of the room.

 

[Al ears]

Unfortunately, because you going down the second-hand route these things are going to be hard to test for, one man/womans dynamic and vibrant is another dull and uninspiring

So careful reading is the way. If the SF's seem a little light you need an amp that's really full-bodied Yamaha for example,if there bright you might not like NAD as that can be lively sounding from that time but NAD may be just the thing if your speakers lack sparkle and dynamics though.

SF are made by McIntosh aren't they? so stans to reason these use their gear to voice their speakers, id read up on the McIntosh sound and see what stands out in those reviews and look for those traits in other brands reviews.

As far as I am aware SF speakers are made in Italy....

 

[matthewpianist]

Here's my suggestions...

Roksan Caspian
Musical Fidelity M6i
Audiolab 8300
Rega Elex-R

 

[Jasonovich]

If I were to sell my Adam T5V amplified monitors, I would definitely try to get hold of the budget range Hegel integrated amps, such as the Hegel H95. Unfortunately this costs £1500, quite significantly more than your budget.
Still, a good second hand or ex-demonstration might be worth seeking, these Norwegian amps are so good.

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks for the responses - some interesting food for thoughts.

In terms of sound improvements I’d like to make- I’d like to get more from the bass output - the SFs are a little light in that area, so an amp that can make the most of the bass.

The sound also gets muddled on busy tracks and it becomes hard to separate the different instruments, as well as place them in the soundstage.

I know one of our current member @nopiano had very good results with Sonus Faber and Primare i32. This one is a little over budget from a dealer, and they operate a 30 days return. I purchased a CDP from them and they are good to deal with.

PRIMARE I32 INTEGRATED AMPLIFER - BOXED (Kent) | eBay

PRIMARE I32 INTEGRATED AMPLIFIER 120 WPC EXCELLENT CONDITION REMOTE MANUAL BOXED 2015.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[OllieC]

I know one of our current member @nopiano had very good results with Sonus Faber and Primare i32. This one is a little over budget from a dealer, and they operate a 30 days return. I purchased a CDP from them and they are good to deal with.

PRIMARE I32 INTEGRATED AMPLIFER - BOXED (Kent) | eBay

PRIMARE I32 INTEGRATED AMPLIFIER 120 WPC EXCELLENT CONDITION REMOTE MANUAL BOXED 2015.

www.ebay.co.uk

Thanks - do you know which SF speakers? Is there a thread on this?

 

[Al ears]

Thanks - do you know which SF speakers? Is there a thread on this?

@nopiano currently has Sonus faber Guarneri Memento speakers but those are not the ones he had with the Primare amp they were some floorstanders the name of which currently escapes me, possibly Grand Pianos.

 

[JDL]

I’m looking to upgrade an Arcam SA20 amp. It will be driving a pair of Sonus Faber Lumina 3 floorstanders. Sources are Bluesound Powernode and Rega Planar 3 (I have a separate phono stage).

I want to buy 2nd hand and budget is £800. Thinking perhaps older models of classic amps with a fair bit of grunt.

I basically want an amp that’s going to get the most out of my speakers, which I upgraded after buying the Arcam.

Suggestions please!

Marantz PM16 perhaps, or a more modern suggestion might be Marantz PM 8600. A 90s amp and a much more modern one. Both beautifully built, both highly regarded, both traditional no fuss reliable, great sounding amps. Personally my belief is that for the money you can't go wrong with Marantz integrated amplifiers, Just a suggestion. I've been through two amps a Marantz PM 7200, which was a lovely sounding and reliable amp. I recently bought a Marantz PM8500 which is also very good. Both the models I've suggested are pricier than I can afford but I would have one or other if I could afford it.

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks - do you know which SF speakers? Is there a thread on this?

Sure there is a thread somewhere. Might be worth checking the 'Search' section and put in his username in. Like Al ears I can't recall what model it was.

That said, as the seller is offering a 30 days returns it should be worth a punt.

 

[Al ears]

Sure there is a thread somewhere. Might be worth checking the 'Search' section and put in his username in. Like Al ears I can't recall what model it was.

That said, as the seller is offering a 30 days returns it should be worth a punt.

Pretty certain now that it was SF Grand Piano floorstanders(original not the Domus version) and were originally driven by a Krell integrated amp.

 

[nopiano]

@nopiano currently has Sonus faber Guarneri Memento speakers but those are not the ones he had with the Primare amp they were some floorstanders the name of which currently escapes me, possibly Grand Pianos.

That’s it, the Sf Concerto Grand Piano. They dated from 1997 and around the time I bought the I32 I also got new ATC SCM40 speakers - that was 2017. ( I still have the Primare amp, though not currently in use as I wanted to try class A with a Pass Labs amp)

I don’t know the Lumina 3 from a listening perspective, but I’ve seen that series in several dealers and at shows.

Here is a review, and you’ll see it has plenty of power!

 

[rainsoothe]

Hi. I think you might have a pretty severe case of system mis-match. The Arcam is "forgiving" sounding, and so are the Sonus Fabers. Moreso, even the Bluesound is not e hyper-detailed machine. I, for one, would stick with the speakers, and demo them with one of the amps the others suggested, but my go-to would be the new Rega Elex mk4 or, fore more muscle, a Naim Nait XS3. But whatever it is you demo, it must do fast bass.

Also, just to double-check, are you using a Bluesound POWERnode or just the node? Because the Powernode has an integrated amplifier, so you're basically wasting half of that machine, and you might be better off selling it or trading it in to bridge the gap to a better amplifier, and replace it with a Node or whatever. If you DO end up upgrading your amp, an upgrade to your source might be in order too.

Out of the amps suggested above, if it was me, I'd skip on anything "relaxed" sounding, like a Marantz. Yamaha amps aren't doing it for me either, they can sound rather thin imo. Stuff I'd check out (besides the afforementioned Rega and Naim) would be the Roksan Caspian M2 (even the Kandy K3), any Hegel, the Primare, Leema, Musical Fidelity, that kind of stuff.

Good luck!

 

[OllieC]

Thanks for all the responses. I think I’ll need to increase my budget to £1k and so shortlist now includes:

Musical Fidelity M6i
Primare i32
Musical Fidelity A5

The first two have listings that accept returns on eBay so will start there.

 

[matthewpianist]

I think that's a good shortlist. I've never heard a Primare amp, but the comments and reviews I've read are all positive.

Musical Fidelity make outstanding amplifiers, and even their entry-level M2si is superb - I regularly regret selling mine, though the Audiolab is excellent.

 

[OllieC]

Another angle on this… not sure I really need an integrated amp. I have a separate streamer with DAC and a separate phono stage.

Thoughts on separate pre and power amps as an alternative?

 

[Al ears]

Another angle on this… not sure I really need an integrated amp. I have a separate streamer with DAC and a separate phono stage.

Thoughts on separate pre and power amps as an alternative?

Not good idea, they tend to be much more expensive than an equivalent power integrated.
You can, of course, find integrated amps without DACs or phono stages

 

[Jasonovich]

Not good idea, they tend to be much more expensive than an equivalent power integrated.
You can, of course, find integrated amps without DACs or phono stages

I would say if you were starting from scratch, I would seriously consider the most excellent HEGEL H190.

DISCLAIMER: I accept what I say is pointless but take it as future window shopping and a bit of fun.

H190 is an Integrated amp, DAC and Streamer. It even has a headphone socket. All you need really are speakers, talk about small carbon foot print!

You would require a separate phono preamp I think, if you wished to add a turntable.

TECHNICAL DETAILS​

• Power output 2 x 150W in 8 Ohms, 2 x 250W in 4 Ohms
• Minimum load 2 ohms
• Analog Inputs 1 x balanced (XLR), 2 x unbalanced (RCA)
• Digital Inputs 1 x coaxial S/PDIF, 3 x optical S/PDIF, 1 x USB, 1 x Network
• Line level Output 1 x unbalanced fixed (RCA), 1 x unbalanced variable (RCA)
• Frequency response 5Hz-100kHz
• Signal-to-noise ratio More than 100dB
• Crosstalk Less than -100dB
• Distortion Less than 0.01% @ 25W 8 Ohms 1kHz
• Intermodulation Less than 0.01% (19kHz + 20kHz)
• Damping factor More than 4000
• Dimensions 12cm x 43cm x 41cm (HxWxD), 19kg shipment weight
• Dimensions (US) 7.72” x 16.93” x 16.15” (HxWxD), 41.89lbs shipment weight

 

[Al ears]

I would say if you were starting from scratch, I would seriously consider the most excellent HEGEL H190.

DISCLAIMER: I accept what I say is pointless but take it as future window shopping and a bit of fun.

H190 is an Integrated amp, DAC and Streamer. It even has a headphone socket. All you need really are speakers, talk about small carbon foot print!

You would require a separate phono preamp I think, if you wished to add a turntable.

TECHNICAL DETAILS​

• Power output 2 x 150W in 8 Ohms, 2 x 250W in 4 Ohms
• Minimum load 2 ohms
• Analog Inputs 1 x balanced (XLR), 2 x unbalanced (RCA)
• Digital Inputs 1 x coaxial S/PDIF, 3 x optical S/PDIF, 1 x USB, 1 x Network
• Line level Output 1 x unbalanced fixed (RCA), 1 x unbalanced variable (RCA)
• Frequency response 5Hz-100kHz
• Signal-to-noise ratio More than 100dB
• Crosstalk Less than -100dB
• Distortion Less than 0.01% @ 25W 8 Ohms 1kHz
• Intermodulation Less than 0.01% (19kHz + 20kHz)
• Damping factor More than 4000
• Dimensions 12cm x 43cm x 41cm (HxWxD), 19kg shipment weight
• Dimensions (US) 7.72” x 16.93” x 16.15” (HxWxD), 41.89lbs shipment weight

View attachment 5001

nice plug but I think you missed the point entirely....
Why exactly do you think he needs this?

 

[Jasonovich]

nice plug but I think you missed the point entirely....
Why exactly do you think he needs this?

I know, may I be excused now. 😊

Seriously though, I was just putting out there for anyone, who might want to start from scratch.

OP already stated he has a separate Streamer and DAC and a budget of £800.
Something I thought I share.

 

[hifi]

I’m looking to upgrade an Arcam SA20 amp. It will be driving a pair of Sonus Faber Lumina 3 floorstanders. Sources are Bluesound Powernode and Rega Planar 3 (I have a separate phono stage).

I want to buy 2nd hand and budget is £800. Thinking perhaps older models of classic amps with a fair bit of grunt.

I basically want an amp that’s going to get the most out of my speakers, which I upgraded after buying the Arcam.

Suggestions please!

What type of music do you listen too Genre ? i would go power amp too drive those beasts .