Need advice pls - Big speakers for 1000sq ft room!

[Phileas]

The MD of AVI has learnt well from the founders of Naim and Linn no matter what he says about them.

I find most of what you write reasonable and fair so I assume this was meant as a joke? :roll:

 

[spiny norman]

Post deleted: makes no sense after spiny edited.

What, you mean the only ever-so-slightly defamatory

Hmmm, the notes on WHF say that he 'read' English, they don't say whether he took any exams, and whether he passed or failed.

For some reason Geoffrey Archer springs to mind.

?

 

[john dolan]

I guess all these accusations are pretty moot, since nobody can ever prove anything. Indeed, even if one of his 'followers' suddenly were to log in from an IP address emanating from somewhere near Stroud in Gloucestershire, that could always be explained away. On the other hand it might, if I were the suspicious type, or if there was some suggestion of prior form in this regard, make me wonder whether those followers are always who they appear to be.

https://sites.google.com/site/dikdolan/WhatHi-FiSoundandVision-Bestwaytospe.mht

https://sites.google.com/site/dikdolan/WhatHi-FiSoundandVision-Questionrene.mht

santino.b.it is Darren JD its why he got banned from WHF

 

[lindsayt]

You know what: I rephrase my question and drag it on topic! :type:

Does the distance from the speakers to the listening position play a role in determining what speakers you need in a big room, or is it just a question of air volume you need to fill with the speakers' bass output?

BTW, you are a laudable baseball player, Relocated! :cheers:

Yes, because lower frequencies are less directional than upper frequencies. So in the context of a domestic hi-fi, the further you sit from the speakers the more the bass drops off compared to the midrange and treble. Most frequency response measurements are made with the microphone close to the speaker. So, in a big room for a flatter frequency response at the listening position it's desirable to have a frequency response that would measure a bit bass heavy close up.

Of course what you then need to watch out for is that you don't have a room that is rather echoey in the bass region. So if you have a large room with speakers that are full in the bass it's best if it is well furnished, and the speakers properly positioned to cut down on the echoes and to produce a clean sounding bass.

 

[the record spot]

In true AVI ethos, it's important to be balanced and fair.

JC

Shame the same can't be said of the forum moderation, in my experience, JC.

 

[Phileas]

So if you have a large room with speakers that are full in the bass it's best if it is well furnished, and the speakers properly positioned to cut down on the echoes and to produce a clean sounding bass.

Wouldn't it have to be rather large furniture to affect the "echoes" of the lower frequencies?

 

[DocG]

Does the distance from the speakers to the listening position play a role in determining what speakers you need in a big room, or is it just a question of air volume you need to fill with the speakers' bass output?

Yes, because lower frequencies are less directional than upper frequencies. So in the context of a domestic hi-fi, the further you sit from the speakers the more the bass drops off compared to the midrange and treble. Most frequency response measurements are made with the microphone close to the speaker. So, in a big room for a flatter frequency response at the listening position it's desirable to have a frequency response that would measure a bit bass heavy close up.

Of course what you then need to watch out for is that you don't have a room that is rather echoey in the bass region. So if you have a large room with speakers that are full in the bass it's best if it is well furnished, and the speakers properly positioned to cut down on the echoes and to produce a clean sounding bass.

Thanks, lindsayt. So...

- Bass-heavy speakers are preferred if I want to fill a big room with a full sound.

- If in a 75 m2 room my listening chair is 3 m from the speakers (which are 2.5 m apart), then less bass will do - for my ears, in the listening chair.

- It's not a good idea to use Focal Grand Utopia EMs or B&W 801Ds in a 3x 3 m veranda (unless just maybe when combined with an excellent room correction system).

Correct?

 

[BenLaw]

Post deleted: makes no sense after spiny edited.

What, you mean the only ever-so-slightly defamatory

Hmmm, the notes on WHF say that he 'read' English, they don't say whether he took any exams, and whether he passed or failed.

For some reason Geoffrey Archer springs to mind.

?

Indeed. I was pedantically and rather petulantly correcting you to 'Jeffrey Archer' as a commentary on the general pointlessness of your posts. It wasn't worth it then and evidently isn't now either.

 

[spiny norman]

Indeed. I was pedantically and rather petulantly correcting you to 'Jeffrey Archer' as a commentary on the general pointlessness of your posts. It wasn't worth it then and evidently isn't now either.

The academic foot in mouth and misspelling of the good lord's given name were both our Birmingham friend's, not mine, but your attention to his lack of detail is appreciated.

 

[BenLaw]

Double pointless then. And as I was commenting on your post which (as ever) was commenting on AVI perhaps that ought to be quadruple pointless.

Does that qualify as the most pointless post of 2013? (He asked rhetorically.)

 

[jcbrum]

Oh, you mean that Jeffrey Archer ?

 

[jcbrum]

I think there is a clear distiction between Andrew Everard and Jeffrey Archer.

Jeffrey Archer writes works of fiction and Andrew Everard writes HiFi reviews.

JC

 

[lindsayt]

Thanks, lindsayt. So...

- Bass-heavy speakers are preferred if I want to fill a big room with a full sound.

- If in a 75 m2 room my listening chair is 3 m from the speakers (which are 2.5 m apart), then less bass will do - for my ears, in the listening chair.

- It's not a good idea to use Focal Grand Utopia EMs or B&W 801Ds in a 3x 3 m veranda (unless just maybe when combined with an excellent room correction system).

Correct?

Less bass is required from the speakers at 3 metres than if you were sitting 6 metres or 8 metres away from them. Also, you can adjust the tonal balance a bit by adjusting the toe-in of your speakers.

The measurements I've seen for the 801D's show that the bass hump is at about the same level as the midrange humps. There's a good chance they'd sound tonally fine in a small room.

 

[relocated]

Or are you going to tell us that Naim/Linn/Cyrus followers are more pertinent.

I actually think the marketing engaged in by the founders of both Linn and Naim did a tremendous amount of damage to the image of the British hi-fi industry in the 1980s and beyond.

It was agressive and belligerent and called into question the very sanity of anyone (journalists, dealers, other manufacturers) who tried to argue against their bullying and hectoring.

It resulted in a hi-fi press that was disproportionately skewed towards Linn/Naim whether in support (mostly), or just because it seemed - because of all the fuss generated over the years - that everything in British hi-fi had become a debate with the philosophies of the two companies involved.

'Camps' and entrenchments followed. Your favourite magazine was either pro-Linn/Naim or against it. Your favourite dealer was either a Linn/Naim dealer (almost to the exclusion of other price equivalent gear) or 'out in the cold'.

It was a con of course, but a bloody good one that persisted for a long time. Two small (but very noisy) companies dominated the scene and had influence way beyond their size in the market.

That was all pre-internet (pre WWW anyway) but the same thing seems to be working here (and on other forums). A small manufacturer of niche hi-fi products getting a disproportionate amount of attention, over many years, and forcing almost every discussion of hi-fi to become a debate about AVI active speakers and the opinions of it's producers.

The MD of AVI has learnt well from the founders of Naim and Linn no matter what he says about them.

Chebby,

If AVI gets " a disproportionate amount of attention", whose fault is that exactly? It isn't the fault of AVI or the people who own and recommend AVI.

Take this thread as an example. Back on page 2, I speculated that if the OP was prepared to be adventurous they might consider going for the ADM 40s. The OP, a couple of posts later and on the same page said that my suggestion would be considered by them.

Cue the usual suspects and where are we now, page 8. I have said so many times what I am going to say again now. If certain people allowed the recommendation of AVI without the seemingly obligatory need to make unfounded and historical accusations THEN AVI WOULD NOT GET THE COLUMN METRES OF EXPOSURE THAT IT DOES. [Oh! JD and Lemon I knew that the caps lock was on, it was intentional].

Certain people need to realise that my posts, in the main, are made to the OP for them to decide if they are relevant. The OPs are invariably new to the forum and are asking for help, so it is irrelevant to them if certain members of this forum have heard the same thing over and over again. The posts are not there to wind you up, they are there to help others. The conduct of some would be bad enough if they actually had advice to give to the OP, but invariably they have no positive contribution, they just wish to carry on with their petty minded anti-AVI campaign.

A year or more ago, the anti-AVI bullying was to some extent successful. I know of people who have abandoned this forum because of the way they were attacked if they ever had the audacity to recommend AVI. This forum is diminished by their abscense but it ain't going to happen with me. Chuck whatever you like at me, it won't matter a jot, it will only allow me to repeat myself when replying to the irrelevant postings of some deluded souls.

Naim and Linn, together with dealers and hifi mags have a lot to answer for, as you rightly say. AVI has nought to do with it. They sell product that delivers disproportunately well to cost. They don't try to sell you needless expensive power supplies, cables, streaming devices, mega-bit DACs or any other angst producing frippery.

Thanks for listening.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Oh dear. How you AVI disciples suffer for your faith!

It would be nice if you all stopped shilling for a bit, people might even take you seriously. Either that, or give WhatHifi some advertising money.

 

[relocated]

Somewhat of a sideway, I know (though less so than the latest 3 pages), but what about the opposite? When is a room too small for speakers with lots of bass? Has that to do with the distance of the speakers to the listening seat, or to the front wall? Or is it just the cubic metres of air that are 'pressurized' by the speakers' bass output?

I'd be very interested in reading thoughts in regard's to this

Hi GSB,

Let's wait until the war is over, and then ask again...

Perhaps I could throw a second curve-ball into this thread and suggest you start a new thread. :O

You know what: I rephrase my question and drag it on topic! :type:

Does the distance from the speakers to the listening position play a role in determining what speakers you need in a big room, or is it just a question of air volume you need to fill with the speakers' bass output?

BTW, you are a laudable baseball player, Relocated! :cheers:

Surprising given that I have only ever been exposed to 'rounders'. I am not suitably qualified to answer your question unfortunately. I could hazard a guess but I prefer facts to speculation.

:cheers:

 

[DocG]

You know what: I rephrase my question and drag it on topic! :type:

Does the distance from the speakers to the listening position play a role in determining what speakers you need in a big room, or is it just a question of air volume you need to fill with the speakers' bass output?

BTW, you are a laudable baseball player, Relocated! :cheers:

Surprising given that I have only ever been exposed to 'rounders'. I am not suitably qualified to answer your question unfortunately. I could hazard a guess but I prefer facts to speculation.

:cheers:

That's fine. Lindsayt answered every aspect of my question.

FWIW, I for one have no problem with your suggesting AVI every once in a while (though I won't buy them; their appearance is not to my taste). :cheers:

 

[hoopsontoast]

Hi,

I'm really struggling with a decision on a speaker upgrade, as for my budget (circa £1500) I simply can't find anything that suits. The issue is that they are located in a 1000 sq ft sitting room with wooden floor and minimal soft furnishings, and I'm struggling to get anything that really fills the space properly with rich deep sound. To increase the challenge, they have to blend in so real wood and not vinyl wrap.

My local dealer told me that i need to at least double my budget, and whilst there maybe some room, 3k is definitely not happening.

Running Roksan K2 int and power amps and roksan cd, project debut turntable.

Was considering b&w cm9, kef r900 or ma gx300 as ex demo's / 2nd hand or sonus faber liuto 2nd hand (but i dont think i can bi-amp the latter). Even with this line up im not convinced that using 6" drivers will move enough air. Even resorted to thinking about Mission MX5 or MX6 just because they're huge (ruled out as they're not wood and rather too brash aesthetically).

Suggestions most welcome, I need to start sleeping and stop this consuming so much time!

To fill that sized space, you will need big drivers I am afraid.

No replacement for displacement!

Something like older 12"-15" tannoys like the Cheviot or Berkley could be worth a look. Maybe the more modern D700 or something as well.
Heard some Snell As and Snell Cs which would do the trick as well, although a lot more difficult to find.

You sometimes see the larger JBLs knocking about, not so familliar with their model numbers though.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Add to that some of the older ATC SCM50A (Non SL) can be had for around £1.5k. Would do the volume needed at the expense of the deepest bass.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

but I prefer facts to speculation.

:cheers:

look who's talking. :rofl:

 

[lindsayt]

If you JCBrum, or anyone else, enjoys the thin and lean sound of ADM 9's which becomes very thin and lean in a large room, and you enjoy the bass transient distortion of AVI ADM 9's then that is your prerogative. But for you to then go into complete denial that these exist, well that to me is just complete marketing poppycock. The sort of marketing poppycock that is annoying and is tantamount to miss-selling the product.

Well lindsayt, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet, and some sort of axe to grind about this.

Your views are your invention, not supported by the reviews of AVI ADM9 speakers from Andrew Everard of Gramophone magazine, and indeed What Hi-Fi magazine who gave them a five star rating.

Frankly, your views are so far removed from reality, as confirmed by the thousands of satisfied users of AVI loudspeakers, many of whom report their findings on various media and websites, as to be the ramblings of deliberate prejudice, and a misguided psychology.

It is ridiculous to suggest that the excellence of AVI loudspeakers is a myth dependent merely on fictitious 'shills'.

Quite frankly, reading your drivel, is a waste of time.

All anyone has to do is simply listen to AVI speakers, and/or speak directly to people who own and use them.

Failing that, buy some and try them. They hold their value very well and re-sell easily. That alone suggests your above assessment is incorrect.

JC

JCBrum, why the very irritating ad hominem attack on myself?

Your post is completely out of order.

I've asked you this before on other threads, which you seem to be ignoring: can you please stop making comments that are personally insulting towarrds me. Also please stop the ad hominem attacks. We are only talking about hi-fi here. For me it's the equivalent of talking about football down the pub with a few mates.

Your argument that AVI ADM 9's don't have a relatively thin and lean sound - especially in a very large room - because they received a good review from Andrew Everard and a 5 star What hi-fi rating and have "thousands of satisfied users" is a complete non-sequitor.

The vast majority of speakers awarded 5 star ratings by What hi-fi will have a relatively thin and lean bass in a 1000sq ft room (relative to the actual recording). The vast majority of them will also have relatively high levels of bass transient distortion. 2 wrongs don't make a right. 140 wrongs don't make a right. The same thing will apply to the majority of speakers given good reviews by Mr Everard.

As for the non sequitor of the "thousands if satisfied users". Well there's lots of precedents for this. For example Linn sold thousands of Kan speakers to satisfied customers. That doesn't stop the Kans from sounding thin and lean.

As for your claim that my views are my invention: you have not responded to my post where I quoted the bass extension figure given by AVI on their website for the ADM 9's and a corresponding chart from a 3rd party source on the frequency ranges of various instruments. There can be absolutely no invention on my part there. It seems that you have decided to ignore this and instead launch a deflective ad hominem attack on myself.

And at least we agree on one thing - sort of. All anyone has to do is to listen to AVI speakers. But I would also recommend that they listen to the sort of speakers I recommended in my first post in this thread - ideally in the same room at the same volume with the same peice of music, one pair of speakers and then the other. I think that that will tell them far more about AVI speakers than 1000 posts on this forum.

 

[relocated]

Hi,

I'm really struggling with a decision on a speaker upgrade, as for my budget (circa £1500) I simply can't find anything that suits. The issue is that they are located in a 1000 sq ft sitting room with wooden floor and minimal soft furnishings, and I'm struggling to get anything that really fills the space properly with rich deep sound. To increase the challenge, they have to blend in so real wood and not vinyl wrap.

My local dealer told me that i need to at least double my budget, and whilst there maybe some room, 3k is definitely not happening.

Running Roksan K2 int and power amps and roksan cd, project debut turntable.

Was considering b&w cm9, kef r900 or ma gx300 as ex demo's / 2nd hand or sonus faber liuto 2nd hand (but i dont think i can bi-amp the latter). Even with this line up im not convinced that using 6" drivers will move enough air. Even resorted to thinking about Mission MX5 or MX6 just because they're huge (ruled out as they're not wood and rather too brash aesthetically).

Suggestions most welcome, I need to start sleeping and stop this consuming so much time!

To fill that sized space, you will need big drivers I am afraid.

No replacement for displacement!

Something like older 12"-15" tannoys like the Cheviot or Berkley could be worth a look. Maybe the more modern D700 or something as well.
Heard some Snell As and Snell Cs which would do the trick as well, although a lot more difficult to find.

You sometimes see the larger JBLs knocking about, not so familliar with their model numbers though.

I'm not given to specifically condemning peoples recommendations, but, you can forget about Tannoy Cheviot or Berkleys. They will certainly make a lot of noise with very little watts but up against modern high quality speakers, absolutely no way.

My comment comes from ownership of Berkleys for many years and I chose those over the Cheviots. So sorry Hoops you are way off there.

 

[andyc333]

Hello

I have a 800sq ft lounge, with 25ft vaulted ceiling ( i live in a converted Wesleyan Church)

I have brough the following which fill the room amazingly

Rel Center Speaker

Dali Suites 3.5 Front Speakers

Dali Suites 2.8 Rear Speakers

B&W 603'S Rear/Rear Speakers

Yamaha 2020 Aventage AVR 9.2 120W per channel 1260W

Arcam FMJ BDP

Hi,

I'm really struggling with a decision on a speaker upgrade, as for my budget (circa £1500) I simply can't find anything that suits. The issue is that they are located in a 1000 sq ft sitting room with wooden floor and minimal soft furnishings, and I'm struggling to get anything that really fills the space properly with rich deep sound. To increase the challenge, they have to blend in so real wood and not vinyl wrap.

My local dealer told me that i need to at least double my budget, and whilst there maybe some room, 3k is definitely not happening.

Running Roksan K2 int and power amps and roksan cd, project debut turntable.

Was considering b&w cm9, kef r900 or ma gx300 as ex demo's / 2nd hand or sonus faber liuto 2nd hand (but i dont think i can bi-amp the latter). Even with this line up im not convinced that using 6" drivers will move enough air. Even resorted to thinking about Mission MX5 or MX6 just because they're huge (ruled out as they're not wood and rather too brash aesthetically).

Suggestions most welcome, I need to start sleeping and stop this consuming so much time!