Naim / Focal takeover

[iceman16]

@MrReaper182

Same could be said for Tier 3. Example French Focal buying UK's Hi-Fi pride and joy Naim, KEF and Wharfedale are Chinese owned etc. Even Tier 3 has some punch but you are forgeting the scale of things. You can fit all of UK Hi-Fi industry inside Harman International paper clip expenditures.

But they could'nt buy my local chinese shop as long as i buy my Hot n sour soup!>)

 

[the record spot]

Lot of movement in the audio world just now. Phillips has sold one of their divisions, Woox, to Gibson (of guitars fame) who also recently acquired Onkyo and Teac.

Any link? Thanks.

Here y'go...

http://www.themusicnetwork.com/gibson-acquires-philips-audio-home-entertainment-business/

 

[the record spot]

UK always had one thing in is favor, small brands with top quality Hi-Fi sound.

For example, Sonneteer, and i've never seen no one mention it around this parts...

This place reflects the consumer mass market for the most part. So plenty of the usual brands and less of the less common ones which is a pity as some great gear is overlooked.

 

[Andy Clough]

Everything. Tier 2 and 3 together don't come close to Tier 1 on any aspect.

Interesting. We've been doing a lot of research into the US market recently, talking to CEOs of major companies such as Harman and Lenbrook, the CEA and American distributors/dealers, and they tell us that most US consumers now have a pretty agnostic approach to brands ie they'll just as happily buy products from a European or Japanese make as they will an American one. Same applies in the car market - the likes of BMW, Audi, Mercedes etc do very well Stateside.

 

[Richard Allen]

I think this industry is undergoing a bit of a skakeup at the mo.

On the one hand you have the likes of Focal/Naim with heavy investment as we've just seen and on the other hand you have the likes of me and many many more like me doing what we do. Production and/or lifestyle products and small esoteric or maybe even semi-bespoke build from us tiddlers.

The 'tiddlers' I predict will always make 2 channel gear but it will contract into what I would call a cottage industry or niche. There will always be a market for our goods but the numbers will go to the likes of Focal/Naim who have the resources to build and stockpile their equipment.

I believe that the 2 camps will be those who want good 2 channel hifi and those who want convenience/gadgetry. It's just the way it is. Us 'tiddlers' just don't have the available investment for expansion on that scale. Hence we become niche.

Do I like it??. No. Do I accept it??. I have to. Just the way it is.

 

[matthewpiano]

@MrReaper182

Same could be said for Tier 3. Example French Focal buying UK's Hi-Fi pride and joy Naim, KEF and Wharfedale are Chinese owned etc. Even Tier 3 has some punch but you are forgeting the scale of things. You can fit all of UK Hi-Fi industry inside Harman International paper clip expenditures.

The scale of things has nothing to do with the quality of things. Your 'tiers' are meaningless.

Harman have made some superb equipment over the years but they've also made some very average stuff and I notice they no longer have much of a hi-fi range at all, apart from a couple of stereo receivers. They have ended production of their integrated amps and CD players by the look of things. Much of Harman's scale these days comes from the multiplicity of brands it has swallowed up and big sales of ipod docks, portable and computer audio speakers, and headphones. I also notice that something made you buy a British amplifier rather than an American one...

BTW, I'm not arguing for the superiority of UK hi-fi. I think there is great kit coming from all sorts of countries and the best system I've ever heard was Italian.

 

[spiny norman]

Same applies in the car market - the likes of BMW, Audi, Mercedes etc do very well Stateside.

Which is presumably why there's not a single European-made car in the Top 20 best-sellers in the States.

 

[Andy Clough]

I think this industry is undergoing a bit of a skakeup at the mo.

On the one hand you have the likes of Focal/Naim with heavy investment as we've just seen and on the other hand you have the likes of me and many many more like me doing what we do. Production and/or lifestyle products and small esoteric or maybe even semi-bespoke build from us tiddlers.

The 'tiddlers' I predict will always make 2 channel gear but it will contract into what I would call a cottage industry or niche. There will always be a market for our goods but the numbers will go to the likes of Focal/Naim who have the resources to build and stockpile their equipment.

I believe that the 2 camps will be those who want good 2 channel hifi and those who want convenience/gadgetry. It's just the way it is. Us 'tiddlers' just don't have the available investment for expansion on that scale. Hence we become niche.

Do I like it??. No. Do I accept it??. I have to. Just the way it is.

A good point Richard, well made. I suspect you're right. Let's just hope the 'tiddlers' can survive

 

[Andy Clough]

Same applies in the car market - the likes of BMW, Audi, Mercedes etc do very well Stateside.

Which is presumably why there's not a single European-made car in the Top 20 best-sellers in the States.

True, but if you look at the list of fastest-selling cars in the US in December 2013 for example, the list includes Range Rover, Range Rover Sport, BMW X5 and Mercedes-Benx S550. I accept US cars are still hugely popular, but that hasn't stopped European brands making inroads, particularly at the more premium end of the market. My point is that the country of origin/manufacture doesn't necessarily put people off.

 

[spiny norman]

True, but if you look at the list of fastest-selling cars in the US in December 2013 for example, the list includes Range Rover, Range Rover Sport, BMW X5 and Mercedes-Benx S550.

'Includes', yes: but the 2013 sales figures put the BMW in 102nd position, the Range Rover Sport 159th, the S-Class 167th and the Range Rover 172nd.

 

[The_Lhc]

True, but if you look at the list of fastest-selling cars in the US in December 2013 for example, the list includes Range Rover, Range Rover Sport, BMW X5 and Mercedes-Benx S550.

'Includes', yes: but the 2013 sales figures put the BMW in 102nd position, the Range Rover Sport 159th, the S-Class 167th and the Range Rover 172nd.

You do understand they're all hugely expensive cars right? And therefore are never going to top any best-selling list, except perhaps in some Gulf states. America does cheap cars very well, well not in terms of quality, it does that very badly, but in terms of cheap nobody else comes close, that's what Americans with not much money buy but the ones that do have money, don't buy American. Those people don't outnumber the ones with money though. I would have thought that much was obvious.

 

[Richard Allen]

:?

I think this industry is undergoing a bit of a skakeup at the mo.

On the one hand you have the likes of Focal/Naim with heavy investment as we've just seen and on the other hand you have the likes of me and many many more like me doing what we do. Production and/or lifestyle products and small esoteric or maybe even semi-bespoke build from us tiddlers.

The 'tiddlers' I predict will always make 2 channel gear but it will contract into what I would call a cottage industry or niche. There will always be a market for our goods but the numbers will go to the likes of Focal/Naim who have the resources to build and stockpile their equipment.

I believe that the 2 camps will be those who want good 2 channel hifi and those who want convenience/gadgetry. It's just the way it is. Us 'tiddlers' just don't have the available investment for expansion on that scale. Hence we become niche.

Do I like it??. No. Do I accept it??. I have to. Just the way it is.

A good point Richard, well made. I suspect you're right. Let's just hope the 'tiddlers' can survive

We will survive but inevitably our 'niche' products will be at a given price point and usually more than the mainstream. Now, in terms of your magazine and your review relating to price, where will that leave us??. Can we in fact afford to submit kit to you for review that you and I both know will be of excellent quality, sound and build, only to lose out to something made in China that does something similar but at a cheaper price due to your review policy??. We can't. The capital investment in said product can be huge by our standards. I wouldn't submit anything I didn't think was worthy of less than a 5* review only to get a 4 or a 3 due to price against a Chinese whatever. Maybe all niche product should go in the temptations section. :?

 

[andyjm]

I think this industry is undergoing a bit of a skakeup at the mo.

On the one hand you have the likes of Focal/Naim with heavy investment as we've just seen and on the other hand you have the likes of me and many many more like me doing what we do. Production and/or lifestyle products and small esoteric or maybe even semi-bespoke build from us tiddlers.

The 'tiddlers' I predict will always make 2 channel gear but it will contract into what I would call a cottage industry or niche. There will always be a market for our goods but the numbers will go to the likes of Focal/Naim who have the resources to build and stockpile their equipment.

I believe that the 2 camps will be those who want good 2 channel hifi and those who want convenience/gadgetry. It's just the way it is. Us 'tiddlers' just don't have the available investment for expansion on that scale. Hence we become niche.

Do I like it??. No. Do I accept it??. I have to. Just the way it is.

Richard,

A couple of comments:

I am not sure that Focal has had any 'investment' in its business, although additional funds may have been made available as part of the transaction. The owner has sold his majority stake to a private equity group. So the owner has the money, the PE guys have the shares and Focal has a new owner.

The industry consolidation is driven by the technology as much as the market. I agree that small manufacturers don't have the resources to develop highly software intensive products - and these days that pretty much means everything except the most basic analogue amp. I am afraid it is not convenience / gadgetry - it is functionality. It is my firm belief that in the same way that the idea of a car without an engine management system is hardly imaginable now, it wont be long before the idea of passive speakers without DSP active drivers are regarded in the same way.

There may be enough of a niche market to sustain the two channel analogue amp market, but it will be a struggle.

Naim saw the writing on the wall and sold themselves to Focal a couple of years ago. I am sure we will see others go the same way.

 

[Jota180]

I'm thinking Hi-Fi in terms more of stereo not Home Theater and surround.

It could be rubbish. Its just how people outside the UK see it.

Just how many people outside the UK do you know as a matter of interest?

 

[spiny norman]

it wont be long before the idea of passive speakers without DSP active drivers are regarded in the same way.

25 years and counting

 

[Jota180]

Same applies in the car market - the likes of BMW, Audi, Mercedes etc do very well Stateside.

Which is presumably why there's not a single European-made car in the Top 20 best-sellers in the States.

That does not reflect the quality of the cars though. The European cars mentioned are far more advanced than American cars in every way, shape and form. So Vladimir equating big sales with quality is an erroneous way to look at it.

 

[The_Lhc]

I'm thinking Hi-Fi in terms more of stereo not Home Theater and surround.

It could be rubbish. Its just how people outside the UK see it.

Just how many people outside the UK do you know as a matter of interest?

All of them it appears.

 

[Vladimir]

I know you guys are patriots and all that but no need to character assasinate me. My gear is from all Tiers, I don't have country of origin fetish.

When I say Harman International, this is what comes included:

AKG Acoustics - microphone/headphones

Audio Access - A/V controllers

Becker - car infotainment

BSS Audio - signal processing

Crown International - pro amplifiers

dbx Professional Products - signal processors

DigiTech - guitar products

HardWire - guitar pedals

HiQnet - audio digital network, based on Ethernet

harman/kardon - home/car audio

Infinity - home/car speakers

iOnRoad - Personal driving assistance app

JBL - home/car speakers & amplifiers, professional speakers

Lexicon - digital processing

Mark Levinson - home/car audio

Martin Professional - stage and architectural lighting and effects fixtures

Revel - home speakers

Selenium - home, car and professional speakers, amplifiers, sound tables/mixers

Soundcraft - mixing consoles

Studer - mixing consoles

Harman International revenue in 2011 was $3.772 billion, and BOSE had $ 2.28 billion. The biggest UK player B&W, which has Classe and Rotel under its wing, had £135.1 million revenue (in UK terms revenue = turnover). We are really comparing mosquitoes to elephants here.

As for quality UK has dCS, Living Voice and maybe few more Hi-End names. Impossible to count how many the US has. Just open couple of Stereophile mags or check out their RMAF and Las Vegas fests.

Tannoy is Danish, Exposure is Malaysian, KEF, Wharfedale and QUAD are Chinese, Naim is French, Arcam is American... kudos to the ones still holding their own in dire times.

 

[The_Lhc]

Never mind the quality, feel the width eh?

 

[The_Lhc]

Arcam is American...

That's a pretty subtle bit of trolling there, well done! :clap:

 

[Vladimir]

Not trolling. JAM group ownes it, I got the info here on this forum few days ago. http://www.jamindustries.com/markets/consumer-electronics/arcam

 

[chebby]

Not trolling. JAM group ownes it, I got the info here on this forum few days ago. http://www.jamindustries.com/markets/consumer-electronics/arcam

You got it from me. Arcam owner JAM Industries is a Canadian company headqartered in Quebec. Some new Arcam products (A49, C49, P49) are being built in a JAM facility near Rochester in New York State.

 

[Vladimir]

There ya go. Canadian.

Is Cyrus still Brittish owned?

 

[manicm]

Cyrus, Linn and Naim are still manufactured in UK, except of-course the latter's new Muso system which bucks the trend, and will probably start a new one for the company. I expect the next Nait models to be made in China as well, but 5 years is a long time and it may not be that cheap to manufacture in the Far East anymore.

I know some major-brand cosmetics/toiletries are made in the Philippines, how long till electronics commence there?

 

[chebby]

There ya go. Canadian.

Is Cyrus still Brittish owned?

No. Owned by Dah Chong Hong Holdings.