My Demo of AVI ADM 9s and 40s

[CnoEvil]

People frequently do it on the golf forums, and they pass off equipment as incredible, the next big thing, and I know it's not. Some of the manufacturers use their own proprietary technology which is theoretically superior, but which makes no difference to the end result. Loads of people get sucked into the over-enthusiastic reviews, and end up buying stuff which is not *demonstrably* better than what they currently own.

I made a similar observation a while back:
http://www.whathifi.com/forum/off-topic-and-miscellaneous/ring-any-bells

 

[Anonymous]

Max, can you see any similarity between your statement about sales figures and returns and Ashley's statement on same? And can you see any subsequent irony in your subsequent statement about saying things as you see them?

Yes of course, JD, i was quoting Ash when i spoke of sales figures, and yes there was irony in the following post, but as I said I was responding to David, who seems "very interested", I don't know why that is the case, I'm sure people will form their own opinions on that.

Look, I'm not sure how this past animosity between certain forums and people on them started (seems very chicken and egg to me), and yes, I can see how things that were written there would wind people up here and vice versa, but as I understand it, as things are now, I don't think anyone on either forum want's to be bad mouthing or arguing etc, least that's how I see it, including me, I enjoy the banter and company on both forums to be honest

 

[John Duncan]

They didn't like mine, it seems...

 

[bigblue235]

Ah, I didn't notice that thread at the time, Cno. Probably just as well. I'd likely still be typing my reply to it now

It is a bit like whole active thing though, you get people who say "Oh, I'll only use a driver with a Fuikura shaft". As good as those are, they're only one part. A club is the sum of its parts, much like a speaker. Everything has to be factored in. I avoid certain golf manufacturers as well. I'm weird like that

 

[Anonymous]

They didn't like mine, it seems...

Well if it's any consolation, I do

 

[John Duncan]

They didn't like mine, it seems...

Well if it's any consolation, I do

Easy, tiger.

 

[6th.replicant]

Oh, for gawd's sake! Note the first line of the thread's OP:

First off please don't let this descend into an active vs passive fight...

Some people like what they hear when they listen to AVIs, some people do not.

Who gives a damn whether they're steam-powered, passive, active or re-active; sell by the container-load or rickshaw-load; and how, and by whom, they are sold?

File under "petty, tedious and self-rightous" :hand:

 

[Frank Harvey]

Oh, for gawd's sake!

Some people like what they hear when they listen to AVIs, some people do not.

Who gives a damn whether they're steam-powered, passive, active or re-active; sell by the container-load or rickshaw-load; and how, and by whom, they are sold?

File under "petty, tedious and self-rightous" :hand:

The problem is it will never be that simple. Rather than concentrate on how good the speakers might be and using that to fend off the multitudes of competition out there, 'fans' seem to concentrate on the active aspect and ram it home, presumably with the hope of making all passive competition irrelevant with one easy swipe. I applaud their enthusiasm and loyalty, but it all just seems a bit like Project Mayhem (Fight Club reference, for those that don't know) - everyone has their role to play.

 

[bigblue235]

Oh, for gawd's sake! Note the first line of the thread's OP:

First off please don't let this descend into an active vs passive fight...

Some people like what they hear when they listen to AVIs, some people do not.

Who gives a damn whether they're steam-powered, passive, active or re-active; sell by the container-load or rickshaw-load; and how, and by whom, they are sold?

File under "petty, tedious and self-rightous" :hand:

Quite a few people, clearly. Anyway, it's better than Deal or No Deal with Katie Price.

 

[the record spot]

I have absolutely no doubt that for many people, the ADM40s will be excellent. They certainly look it - nice build, lovely wood finish and all. For £3000 I think they're fairly priced.

There may indeed be many technical advantages to actives, but that doesn't automatically mean that their passive counterparts will all instantly sound terrible. I think that's one of the issues I have with the AVI Forum or at least some elements of it anyway.

Equally, I find the obsessing over cables (and the like) and their inflated importance on here as bad.

In the end, you take what you will from both sites and others like it. And then go and listen to some kit and make your own mind up no matter what anyone else says. And if that means you like a pair of passive speakers in preference to actives by anyone never mind AVI, so be it. The choice is right because it's the right one for you.

 

[John Duncan]

That's very public-spirited of you, Max, thanks. Hopefully you didn't indulge in made-up facts in that one. Helpfully, I've found the post which has sales, returns, and patronising of me. So a full house. Http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?pid=55366#p55366

Usual stuff then really! :roll:

John,

In that thread you mentioned that you had some PMC DB1s-aii, are these powered active speakers and are they the ones you currently own? I am just interested, as some PMC TB2S-aii speakers caught my eye, which I believe are active. Have you heard them at all?

Sorry, sometimes I miss the actual questions in the white noise (for which I am equally to blame, admittedly).

To be clear, the DB1-blahs were what I compared the 9.1s to, and which I marginally preferred, albeit at twice the price. I have the passive version, not that one, which is powered passive.

I haven't heard the TB1, though I believe they're a Sound on Sound reference. I suspect they're powered as well but can't be sure; a quick google should clarify.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Marketing spiel is all over this forum in one form or another (not a dig at the forum, just saying), but it's only AVI owners that are accused of "regurgitating it", when the way I see it is they're generally just giving their honest opinions and sometimes trying to explain the technology (often clumsily in my case) behind them.

well Max. I believe honesty of manufacturer's claims are an issue here. like those thousands of happy customers. technically 3000 are thousands but that's not what a common person has in mind when you tell them about thousands of happy customers. marketing hyperbole no1. wouldn't you agree?

another good example could be power rating for the 9s woofer amp. one guy tested voltage rails in AVI's woofer amp and got an RMS result of 36V long term. the power rating on AVI's web site quotes 250W. this is 36^2/ 250 = 5.1 Ohms. this is in fact DC resistance value for the woofer. everything looks OK so far, doesn't it? but firstly you should divide this rating by 2 for RMS rating as a sinewave has crest factor of 3 so you need a 3dB headroom. 3dB louder needs 2 times the power.

and now secondly, DC resistance of a dynamic/ moving coil driver has nothing to do with frequency dependant impedance. which in case of 9s woofer is definite 8 Ohms (the guy measured it too and frequency dependant impedance varies from above 6 Ohms to above 8Ohms. and for the bigger part stays around 8 Ohms). what does it tells us? the amp simply will not be able to put out 250W into that driver's load. what you could more reasonably expect is 36^2/ 8= 162W peak. so RMS rating for 8 Ohm load is 81W. and if you factor in THD, which naturally rises near output limits, you should lower this rating even slightly more. that guy reservedly suggested 75W rating to be in order.

so, what do we have here? from a 250W amp you end up with a 75W amp. and I bet you didn't even know that you had something like Marantz PM 7004 on board, when you thought you had a Krell.

technically you may argue that the manufacturer wasn't wrong to quote 250W for the woofer amp but this is huuugely misleading because the amp will never be able to output this power into this driver.

so this is all about. if you knew more about technical meanders of speaker amp interaction you could be able to filter out marketing hyperbole. I'm not saying I know it all. but I know enough to at least be aware to take with a decent grain of salt everything this Ash is spatting. and you, unfortunately, just repeat after him. (please don't take this remark as an attack. instead think twice if you're going to quote Ash in the future)

 

[steve_1979]

They didn't like mine, it seems...

Well if it's any consolation, I do

Easy, tiger.

Could this be the start of something beautiful?

Calling Drummerman...

 

[Messiah]

To be fair, I don't think this one has descended...yet.

Well it did not take too long did it.

Oh well.

 

[Anonymous]

Marketing spiel is all over this forum in one form or another (not a dig at the forum, just saying), but it's only AVI owners that are accused of "regurgitating it", when the way I see it is they're generally just giving their honest opinions and sometimes trying to explain the technology (often clumsily in my case) behind them.

well Max. I believe honesty of manufacturer's claims are an issue here. like those thousands of happy customers. technically 3000 are thousands but that's not what a common person has in mind when you tell them about thousands of happy customers. marketing hyperbole no1. wouldn't you agree?

another good example could be power rating for the 9s woofer amp. one guy tested voltage rails in AVI's woofer amp and got an RMS result of 36V long term. the power rating on AVI's web site quotes 250W. this is 36^2/ 250 = 5.1 Ohms. this is in fact DC resistance value for the woofer. everything looks OK so far, doesn't it? but firstly you should divide this rating by 2 for RMS rating as a sinewave has crest factor of 3 so you need a 3dB headroom. 3dB louder needs 2 times the power.

and now secondly, DC resistance of a dynamic/ moving coil driver has nothing to do with frequency dependant impedance. which in case of 9s woofer is definite 8 Ohms (the guy measured it too and frequency dependant impedance varies from above 6 Ohms to above 8Ohms. and for the bigger part stays around 8 Ohms). what does it tells us? the amp simply will not be able to put out 250W into that driver's load. what you could more reasonably expect is 36^2/ 8= 162W peak. so RMS rating for 8 Ohm load is 81W. and if you factor in THD, which naturally rises near output limits, you should lower this rating even slightly more. that guy reservedly suggested 75W rating to be in order.

so, what do we have here? from a 250W amp you end up with a 75W amp. and I bet you didn't even know that you had something like Marantz PM 7004 on board, when you thought you had a Krell.

technically you may argue that the manufacturer wasn't wrong to quote 250W for the woofer amp but this is huuugely misleading because the amp will never be able to output this power into this driver.

so this is all about. if you knew more about technical meanders of speaker amp interaction you could be able to filter out marketing hyperbole. I'm not saying I know it all. but I know enough to at least be aware to take with a decent grain of salt everything this Ash is spatting. and you, unfortunately, just repeat after him. (please don't take this remark as an attack. instead think twice if you're going to quote Ash in the future)

None of the above means anything to me, Oldric, as I don't understand any of it. Perhaps you should post it on AVI Forum? I trust Ash and Martin Grinrod's figures, Oldric, they've been queried before by people like yourself on there (was that you??) and satisfactorily explained as far as i can see. Don't take cheap shots on here, go there and do it.

 

[Overdose]

I have the passive version, not that one, which is powered passive. I haven't heard the TB1, though I believe they're a Sound on Sound reference. I suspect they're powered as well but can't be sure; a quick google should clarify.

OK, thanks. The SOS review states that they are 'activated', which seems to be PMC for powered with passive crossover, no bad thing in itself.

Its these or the Event Opals so far though, unless some very well price used ATC actives come across the radar.

(This by the way, is the active speaker equivalence of upgraditis. It does exist. )

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

None of the above means anything to me, Oldric, as I don't understand any of it. Perhaps you should post it on AVI Forum? I trust Ash and Martin Grinrod's figures, Oldric, they've been queried before by people like yourself on there (was that you??) and satisfactorily explained as far as i can see. Don't take cheap shots on here, go there and do it.

no, it wasn't me. I read it in one of andyg's long threads. very interesting stuff and this power rating popped up as a by-topic.

I don't want to prove anything on HDD forum. what purpose would it serve. besides I'd have to have AVI speakers and measuring equipment to prove anything. and I don't have neither.

 

[Dave_]

(This by the way, is the active speaker equivalence of upgraditis. It does exist. )

Was it ever in any doubt?

Even AVI cant cure it, it seems

 

[Anonymous]

None of the above means anything to me, Oldric, as I don't understand any of it. Perhaps you should post it on AVI Forum? I trust Ash and Martin Grinrod's figures, Oldric, they've been queried before by people like yourself on there (was that you??) and satisfactorily explained as far as i can see. Don't take cheap shots on here, go there and do it.

no, it wasn't me. I read it in one of andyg's long threads. very interesting stuff and this power rating popped up as a by-topic.

I don't want to prove anything on HDD forum. what purpose would it serve. besides I'd have to have AVI speakers and measuring equipment to prove anything. and I don't have neither.

Well don't you think it a little unfair to be making disparaging statements on here, without proof? Go there and do it, you'll meet your technical match and then some. Trust me.

 

[atticus]

Oh, for gawd's sake! Note the first line of the thread's OP:

First off please don't let this descend into an active vs passive fight...

Some people like what they hear when they listen to AVIs, some people do not.

Who gives a damn whether they're steam-powered, passive, active or re-active; sell by the container-load or rickshaw-load; and how, and by whom, they are sold?

File under "petty, tedious and self-rightous" :hand:

Doubleplusgood!

 

[the record spot]

.

 

[Ajani]

How many more people have to comment on how good the ADMs are for all the haters to stop?

I don't really get it. If someone told me there was a set of speakers on the market that sounded better than most kit costing many times the price then I would want to hear them. Instead people seem to dismiss the many claims without having listened to them. (I appreciate there are a couple of you that have heard them and don't like them and fair enough).

Whatever claims are made by the manufacturer surely the testimonies of the many people that have heard them carry some weight? Certainly from once very respected members such as Iggle?

Why does every AVI thread have to descend into a battle between those that have heard them and praise them and those that have not heard them and feel the need to dismiss the 'wild claims'.

Those that have heard them feel strongly about them for a very good reason. Those that have not heard them should perhaps arrange a demo and see what all the fuss is about of refrain from these threads.

The problem faced by AVI (much like Audio Note and several other brands) is that they started (and continue to) hate on just about everything else. Rather than just introducing a high quality product at a reasonable price, they had to diss all the passive designs around, diss the review mags, diss the persons who buy such passive designs and read those mags, etc...

If you want the hating to stop, then you need to go the AVI forums and convince Ash, etc to tone it down. Otherwise AVI will always be met negatively.

 

[BenLaw]

None of the above means anything to me, Oldric, as I don't understand any of it. Perhaps you should post it on AVI Forum? I trust Ash and Martin Grinrod's figures, Oldric, they've been queried before by people like yourself on there (was that you??) and satisfactorily explained as far as i can see. Don't take cheap shots on here, go there and do it.

no, it wasn't me. I read it in one of andyg's long threads. very interesting stuff and this power rating popped up as a by-topic.

I don't want to prove anything on HDD forum. what purpose would it serve. besides I'd have to have AVI speakers and measuring equipment to prove anything. and I don't have neither.

Well don't you think it a little unfair to be making disparaging statements on here, without proof? Go there and do it, you'll meet your technical match and then some. Trust me.

So, only positive things should be posted on WHF about AVI? I don't understand this logic.

 

[Phileas]

To be fair, I don't think this one has descended...yet.

Well it did not take too long did it.

Oh well.

 

[bigblue235]

Well don't you think it a little unfair to be making disparaging statements on here, without proof? Go there and do it, you'll meet your technical match and then some. Trust me.

So, you're allowed to make dozens of gushingly positive posts, based purely on repeating their marketing and your subjective opinion, but any negative statements have to be put before the board of AVI? Jesus Wept.

But, actually, you might be onto something. Maybe all these posts should be over there. Deal?