Musical High End AV Amp Advice!

[admin_exported]

TV: Pioneer 6040

Bluray: Denon 2500

DVD: Arcam DV137

Speakers: B&W 803s/HTM3s/805s

Amp: Onkyo 875

I have recently upgraded my speaker package and now looking for an amp to do justice to the 803's. I have decided to stick to the home cinema amp approach rather than a dedicated hifi amp (so yes - I am not fully doing justice to the 803's!). My budget can go as high as GBP5,000 so, looking at WHF recommendations, there are several options, amongst them the Yamaha DSP-Z11, the Pioneer SC-LX90 and Denon AVC-A1HD. Or anything else for that matter with onboard HD decoding. The requirements are therefore a musical amp but with the "muscle" for HC since most of my usage is for movies. I couldn't find anywhere to properly audition the above (I live in Dubai). Recommendations?

Also, I have been using the Arcam as a CD player but am considering a dedicated player. Is it worth it considering an AV amp and if yes - any suggestions? I assume a high end CD player would be wasted with the HC amp approach?

I thank you in advance for your advice/feedback/views/jokes...!

 

[Gerrardasnails]

wellington:
TV: Pioneer 6040

Bluray: Denon 2500

DVD: Arcam DV137

Speakers: B&W 803s/HTM3s/805s

Amp: Onkyo 875

I have recently upgraded my speaker package and now looking for an amp to do justice to the 803's. I have decided to stick to the home cinema amp approach rather than a dedicated hifi amp (so yes - I am not fully doing justice to the 803's!). My budget can go as high as GBP5,000 so, looking at WHF recommendations, there are several options, amongst them the Yamaha DSP-Z11, the Pioneer SC-LX90 and Denon AVC-A1HD. Or anything else for that matter with onboard HD decoding. The requirements are therefore a musical amp but with the "muscle" for HC since most of my usage is for movies. I couldn't find anywhere to properly audition the above (I live in Dubai). Recommendations?

Also, I have been using the Arcam as a CD player but am considering a dedicated player. Is it worth it considering an AV amp and if yes - any suggestions? I assume a high end CD player would be wasted with the HC amp approach?

I thank you in advance for your advice/feedback/views/jokes...!

You should have a rethink, methinks!

Your bluray player can deal with BD and DVD, so the Arcam should go. This would leave you a cd player, amp and receiver for £5k - rather than the whole lot on a receiver. If you can't audition, I would go for something from the tried and tested big hitters. As for the receiver, the latest from Arcam looks to have all you need but I reckon something like the Denon 3808 would be great and would leave you around £3.5k for stereo amp and cd player which would make such a difference to your overall system.

Any combo of around £1-£1.5k each should sound amazing compared to a £3k plus AV receiver and cd player.

 

[Anonymous]

Gerrardasnails:wellington:
TV: Pioneer 6040

Bluray: Denon 2500

DVD: Arcam DV137

Speakers: B&W 803s/HTM3s/805s

Amp: Onkyo 875

I have recently upgraded my speaker package and now looking for an amp to do justice to the 803's. I have decided to stick to the home cinema amp approach rather than a dedicated hifi amp (so yes - I am not fully doing justice to the 803's!). My budget can go as high as GBP5,000 so, looking at WHF recommendations, there are several options, amongst them the Yamaha DSP-Z11, the Pioneer SC-LX90 and Denon AVC-A1HD. Or anything else for that matter with onboard HD decoding. The requirements are therefore a musical amp but with the "muscle" for HC since most of my usage is for movies. I couldn't find anywhere to properly audition the above (I live in Dubai). Recommendations?

Also, I have been using the Arcam as a CD player but am considering a dedicated player. Is it worth it considering an AV amp and if yes - any suggestions? I assume a high end CD player would be wasted with the HC amp approach?

I thank you in advance for your advice/feedback/views/jokes...!

You should have a rethink, methinks!

Your bluray player can deal with BD and DVD, so the Arcam should go. This would leave you a cd player, amp and receiver for £5k - rather than the whole lot on a receiver. If you can't audition, I would go for something from the tried and tested big hitters. As for the receiver, the latest from Arcam looks to have all you need but I reckon something like the Denon 3808 would be great and would leave you around £3.5k for stereo amp and cd player which would make such a difference to your overall system.

Any combo of around £1-£1.5k each should sound amazing compared to a £3k plus AV receiver and cd player.

Why get a dedicated player when the emphasis lies on home cinema? I'd use the Denon for BD, DVD  nd CD, and spend the whole of your budget on a cracking receiver.

Yes, a stereo combo should sound better but why deal with all the clutter and system matching? I think the OP needs a serious audition, a home one much preferred so he can make his mind up. If I were the OP i'd demo all the amps you listed, and also consider the Marantz MM8003/AV8003, and see what you like best.

All imo ofcourse, if the emphasis were placed on stereo reproduction, then I'd go a different route.

 

[bigblue235]

I think the Arcam AVR600 may be right up your street. I'm eagerly awaiting the reviews, though early feedback from those that have attended demo evenings sounds positive.

The rumoured replacements for the Arcam AV8/P7 may also be of interest, though all they are is rumour at the mo! Can't see Arcam going too long without an HD audio pre/power though.

I'd certainly hang on to your DVD137, I don't think it will do too shabby a job with CD replay, I'd certainly imagine it'd be good enough if your main focus is movies.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Jan Hibma:Gerrardasnails:wellington:
TV: Pioneer 6040

Bluray: Denon 2500

DVD: Arcam DV137

Speakers: B&W 803s/HTM3s/805s

Amp: Onkyo 875

I have recently upgraded my speaker package and now looking for an amp to do justice to the 803's. I have decided to stick to the home cinema amp approach rather than a dedicated hifi amp (so yes - I am not fully doing justice to the 803's!). My budget can go as high as GBP5,000 so, looking at WHF recommendations, there are several options, amongst them the Yamaha DSP-Z11, the Pioneer SC-LX90 and Denon AVC-A1HD. Or anything else for that matter with onboard HD decoding. The requirements are therefore a musical amp but with the "muscle" for HC since most of my usage is for movies. I couldn't find anywhere to properly audition the above (I live in Dubai). Recommendations?

Also, I have been using the Arcam as a CD player but am considering a dedicated player. Is it worth it considering an AV amp and if yes - any suggestions? I assume a high end CD player would be wasted with the HC amp approach?

I thank you in advance for your advice/feedback/views/jokes...!

You should have a rethink, methinks!

Your bluray player can deal with BD and DVD, so the Arcam should go. This would leave you a cd player, amp and receiver for £5k - rather than the whole lot on a receiver. If you can't audition, I would go for something from the tried and tested big hitters. As for the receiver, the latest from Arcam looks to have all you need but I reckon something like the Denon 3808 would be great and would leave you around £3.5k for stereo amp and cd player which would make such a difference to your overall system.

Any combo of around £1-£1.5k each should sound amazing compared to a £3k plus AV receiver and cd player.

Why get a dedicated player when the emphasis lies on home cinema? I'd use the Denon for BD, DVD  nd CD, and spend the whole of your budget on a cracking receiver.

Yes, a stereo combo should sound better but why deal with all the clutter and system matching? I think the OP needs a serious audition, a home one much preferred so he can make his mind up. If I were the OP i'd demo all the amps you listed, and also consider the Marantz MM8003/AV8003, and see what you like best.

All imo ofcourse, if the emphasis were placed on stereo reproduction, then I'd go a different route.

The Denon BD player only has one hdmi output so I don't think cd playback will be that great. He did mention a separate cd player so must be interested in stereo too. Only my opinion also.

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm, I'm having a similar quandary right now - upgrading from my Denon AVR4306 and hoping to get an improvement in stereo performance - going to listen to the Pio SCLX90 next week due to possibility of getting one for a very good price.

One thing I will say is that I have been marginally (not hugely) disappointed with the stereo performance of my 4306 so - along with the fact that Denon are simply far too expensive in Australia - I'm not looking at Denon as a replacement. A shame as the AVC3020 I owned years ago was fantastic - IMO superior to the 4306 I currently own - with a gap of 10 years this just shouldn't happen and is a result of Denon going feature stupid rather than concentrating on sound quality but thats just my opinion.

I have a friend who posts here recently bought the Marantz 8003 processor and thinks its the best thing on the planet though he is partnering it with a NAD M25 power amp as he didnt rate the Marantz power amp at all.

The Arcam does indeed look great - the only reason I'm not looking at it is cost in Australia. If you have it available, I seriously doubt any current Denon is going to remotely compare to it for stereo performance.

I'm with Gerrardasnails on the CD player - I'd go for a good dedicated CD player - remember if you hook any player up to your receiver using a digital connection, you opt for using the receivers DAC's rather than the players and I doubt there are any AV receivers out there with DACs to compare to that of a dedicated good quality cd player. There is a startling difference between my Cambridge Audio Azur 740C cd player and playing cd's through my bluray player or xbox. Before I got it I had an older Denon CD player hooked up to the 4306 using the optical connection and it sounded truly awful compared to the 740C connected over analogue. A high end CD player isn't going to be wasted as any source improvement / shortfall will only be amplified - my friend with the Marantz 8003 has a Cyrus CD8SE hooked up to it and tells me it is truly awesome.

I do see where Gerrard is going with the suggestion of new everything for 5k but I'm not sure I'd go that way - just depends what your philosophy and budget is - I favour spending big on each piece and waiting if I have to - so I'd definitely get the best amp I could for the 5k and wait for the other stuff if you can. As I said though, thats just me, perhaps you want it all done and dusted in which case Gerrards' given you a good suggestion for sure.

I feel your pain and am in a similar situation - short of room and don't want the added complexity of adding either a second stereo setup or a stereo power amp etc so I guess we're on the same mission - to find a good musical av amp. I'll post back once I've listened to the Susano and let you know what I think.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you everyone for your kind feedback. Apologies for not having replied earlier...

Gerrardasnails: the reason for keeping the Arcam is that it's multiregion, unlike the Denon. Your point is well taken in terms of a separate amp/cd player combo for stereo. It is something I have struggled with and for reasons of space (mostly) I have decided to go the AV route. And you are right that with an HDMI out, the Denon is "stiff" with stereo to say the least. Out of curiosity: I assume with such a set up I would have to hook up the stereo amp to the AV amp's preouts? I have always wondered in this case what it would do to cohesion when using 5 channels since one would be running the 2 fronts with a different amp than the other channels. Or am I completely off?
Jan: auditioning any of these products efficiently in Dubai is difficult. Not that they are not available but the demo facilities are not readily available and home testing is not customary around here.
Big blue: prior to the Onkyo I used an Arcam AV amp and the difference in stereo reproduction was significant. I will certainly consider the 600.
Damien: we are indeed going through the same issue. I look forward to your further feedback on the Pioneer. Your point on a dedicated CD player is spot-on (and reinforces Gerrardasnails' point on digital only out) - you have convinced me and I will go the dedicated CD player route. The Cyrus is actually at the top of my list but they are not available where I live - it also might be overkill with an AV amp.
Thank you again everyone. If anybody out there has experience with the AV amps mentioned would love to hear from you.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

wellington:
Thank you everyone for your kind feedback. Apologies for not having replied earlier...

Gerrardasnails: the reason for keeping the Arcam is that it's multiregion, unlike the Denon. Your point is well taken in terms of a separate amp/cd player combo for stereo. It is something I have struggled with and for reasons of space (mostly) I have decided to go the AV route. And you are right that with an HDMI out, the Denon is "stiff" with stereo to say the least. Out of curiosity: I assume with such a set up I would have to hook up the stereo amp to the AV amp's preouts? I have always wondered in this case what it would do to cohesion when using 5 channels since one would be running the 2 fronts with a different amp than the other channels. Or am I completely off?
Jan: auditioning any of these products efficiently in Dubai is difficult. Not that they are not available but the demo facilities are not readily available and home testing is not customary around here.
Big blue: prior to the Onkyo I used an Arcam AV amp and the difference in stereo reproduction was significant. I will certainly consider the 600.
Damien: we are indeed going through the same issue. I look forward to your further feedback on the Pioneer. Your point on a dedicated CD player is spot-on (and reinforces Gerrardasnails' point on digital only out) - you have convinced me and I will go the dedicated CD player route. The Cyrus is actually at the top of my list but they are not available where I live - it also might be overkill with an AV amp.
Thank you again everyone. If anybody out there has experience with the AV amps mentioned would love to hear from you.

I see your point about multi region for dvds. My BD player can be made multi regional for dvds and would give you a better dvd picture than the Arcam dvd player - just a thought. As for the pre out question. Yes, that is how it's set up but it's different to how you understand it. Mine is set up this way. The receiver powers all the speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

I am the friend that Damien was talking about. Firstly, wellington, wow, B&W 803S loudspeakers; very nice, indeed.

Unfortunately, it will always be a compromise trying to have a really good 'hybrid' system - good for Home Theatre and good for 2-channel stereo listening.

I have been extremely happy with my Marantz AV8003 Surround Processor/Pre-Amplifier partnered with my NAD M25 7-channel Power Amplifier. I own a Cyrus CD 8 SE CD Player (stunning CD Player) hooked up to the 'AV8003, and stereo play-back is significantly improved (compared to when I had a humble Integra DTR7.8 A/V Receiver serving as a Pre-Amplifier).

There are so many good A/V Receivers/Amplifiers out there, so if a two-box solution is not your cup of tea, I would recommend auditioning either the Pioneer SC-LX90 or the Yamaha RX-Z11 (called the DSP-Z11 in the UK, and presumably some other countries).

Dan.

 

[Anonymous]

gerrard: i am hoping to eventually de-zone my denon. so far have not been successful in finding a solution that doesn't involve shipping my player out of the country! but you're right that the denon is quite the performer with dvds and makes the arcam redundant on that basis. and so far not glitches to report (fingers crossed) with any disc. thank you for your clarification on the preout question. i was indeed off then! it's never been very clear to me how this actually worked beyond the set up.

dan: thank you for your input. i am very happy indeed with the 803s - they are phenomenal with HC but i am getting the very short end of the hifi stick with the arcam and onkyo combo. hence this post. i have actually found a cyrus dealer in dubai and will be able to audition the CD8SE next month when they receive their new shipment. unfortunately auditioning the pioneer and yamaha properly is not in the cards so will pick one relatively "blind".

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

I would pick the Z11 from your list. The Pioneer is very capable but I would worry that it may be too forward with the B&W's. The Z11 has bags of power as well so will control the 803's and sound very good in stereo as well as mulit channel. The Z11 is also very flexible allowing you to easily assign extra power to the fronts or run it as a pre amp to allow bigger power amps at the front, centre or all round.

Nick

 

[Anonymous]

You might be interested about my recent experiences this year on buying my 1st AV system!
I have owned many good quality stereo items over the years (castle, rogers, quad 303/33, Cyrus, audiolab, Marantz MA-6S2 mono's, meridian, thornes 160) and have modified components to wring even more detail / presence out of them!

At 1st I was disappointed (like yourself) with the musicality of the 875 using a seriously upgraded Meridian 207 pre amp/cd player. (So my source was excellent) Also switching between the various settings on the 875 (even the 'direct' mode) music was very 'closed in' lacking in its sound stage and openness.
I knew that the likely effect of this was down to the interaction between the power supply side of the circuitry and the signal side along with the size of the reservoir caps which don't provide enough capacitance to deal with both the power output of the amp or smoothing out of the DC current. Hardly anything off the shelf (at any price) does.
Russ Andrews has for many years been banging on about the importance of
1) A clean mains supply to Hi Fi equipment.

2) The serious amount of reservoir capacitance needed to get real speed, timing, depth out of the music.

Everyone knows that a Hi end Preamp and 2x Mono Blocks is just about unbeatable and gives a musical performance that is stunning.
Well if you get a big Mains transformer with large caps built into it (look on Russ Andrews site) you will get a total transformation out of your 875 and anything else you plug into it!
The Burr Brown op amps sing with total clarity on all settings. No pollution, Mains capacitance feeding a totally smooth power supply through the rectifiers and DC onwards.

That would be my 1st purchase, you could well find the 875 then ticks all the boxes for you.

The 2nd one might astound you, it did me. Buy a Sony RVD 970 (250g hard drive) and down load CD's onto it. The sounded identical to the Meridian. You could even buy a outboard Dac if you felt the need.

So to recap my advise is to spend money buying a MCU (housing a large transformer and power caps) which will be a piece of equipment you will use for ever more on everything you buy from now on. Think about laying your music down directly on to a hard drive and consider a outboard DAC.

PS Your B&W 805 speakers should sound wonderful as I think they have Clarity Caps SA in the crossovers, which I have installed in my MA RS8 AV speakers. On par with the modded Rogers now!

 

[Anonymous]

Info off Russ's web site.I myself bought 2 BT MCU's off EBay that are built in a similar way for £40 each! Totally agree with Russ's description on the sound improvements....Amazing.
------------------------
In Russ's quest to extract even more performance from his Hi-Fi system, he's identified a new way of cleaning your mains supply that's even more effective than our Ultra Purifier mains filters.

The new product 'balances' the mains and cleans the mains supply in a completely new way; it's quite capable of lifting the performance of your system to a completely new level.

Inside the Russ Andrews Balanced Mains Unit. At the heart of the Russ Andrews Balanced Mains unit is a massive 3kVA transformer that provides the balanced mains supply.

The transformer is large and very heavy, but there's a good reason for this; to ensure a very low mains impedance. in fact, in some situations it offers a mains supply that's lower than the impedance of the mains supply that it's connected to. We're constantly going on about the importance of low mains impedance, but it's critical to allow your music to sound as full, detailed and dynamic as possible.

But it's the unit's action of 'balancing' the mains supply that gives the biggest improvements. Installed in Russ's system, the first thing we noticed was the lower noise floor. This 'silence' is difficult to describe until you've heard it, but when listening to music or movie soundtracks, it seems to enhance the dynamics. Even the quietest, most tiny details and nuances of the recording are resolved with absolute clarity. And when crescendos reach their peak, they seem louder with no harshness and hardening of the sound.

Because subjectively the noise floor is so low, there's a huge leap in three-dimensionality too. The appearance of air and space around instruments and voices gives a realism to performances that will make you think the performers are there in the space in front of your listening seat.

But with the unit installed, after a period of listening it's the musical message that seems to be enhanced the most. With the unit unplugged, we listened to recordings that, while well recorded and detailed, lacked something; didn't get us excited.

With the Balanced Mains unit installed, there was more drive, more energy in the recordings; they seemed pacier. It was as if the greater resolution helped you feel the beat rather than simply hearing it, and transformed a recording of sounds into a performance. It's this insight into the musicality recorded onto discs that makes the Balanced Mains unit a superb system upgrade.

 

[Anonymous]

You are most welcome, wellington. It is always difficult looking to spending a lot of money on high-end equipment, but not being able to audition or view them.

I am sure that both the Pioneer SC-LX90 'Susano' and Yamaha RX-Z11 are fantastic. In the UK, they retail for the same price, but here in Australia, the Yamaha retails for a lot less, and considering its very good specifications and performance, probably makes it fantastic value here but I am not sure what sort of pricing is available for both models in Dubai.

Even the Cyrus CD 6 SE should prove really fantastic. I ended up choosing the more expensive 8 SE, because of the option to instantly upgrade with a Cyrus PSX-R out-board power supply which would increase resolution.

I actually borrowed one from my usual retailer yesterday and have been ultra impressed, so I might be putting in my order for a PSX-R.

 

[Sc00bied00]

Hi Trevor,

quick question, what did you do with the mains spur to sheild it?

I have a dedicated 60amp circuit with cable rated at same, runs to what I call a Buzz Bar (length of MK trunking with 3 solid copper bars that the 13 amp sockets attach to).I am moving toward a HT system now from a pre amp / pair of monoblocks Auidolab 8000 series, will most likely keep these though, needing a good service I think.

Cheers

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,
I used an armoured 40A mains cable run from the consumer unit under the floorboards to a junction box in a joist below where my equipment is. Hardwired into a Tacima block, which feeds the TV off a Classic Powerkord, and 2 MCU's which in turn feed the AV amp, Sub, PS3, Sony RVD with Powerkords.

4core Syarmoured mains cable,6.0sqmm 50mm

Has given a major transformation in the dynamics on the soundtracks on everything that is put through the system.

 

[Anonymous]

High end sound now off a 875, amazing.

(I have owned £6k's worth of Ken Ishiwata Marantz MA6 monoblocks in the past)

Plan B would be to look at Cyrus gear, especially with the PSX units attached.

 

[Sc00bied00]

Hi Trevor,

Thanks for the info, the MCU's are interesting and have noted the discussion regarding these, I wouldn't get away with them in the Liv room though, nowhere to hide em either. Mains supply has alway niggled me especially the fluctuation that can occur, will be something I'll keep note of though.

The MA6's were highly regarded from memory and Ken .... well if you don't know the name what more can I say.

Cheers - sc00bie

 

[Anonymous]

Hi sc00bie,

I fitted my MCU's onto the wall behind the TV/AV stand so they can't be seen except when you look behind all the equipment.

They smooth out all the voltage fluctuations so put out a totally clean and stable mains supply with a mains reservoir capacitance to handle high current demand/peaks off the amps/sub!

You pay a fortune to get a signal path running as clean as this in high end Hi Fi.

 

[Sc00bied00]

From the post, the MCU's are quite bulky? I'm limited on the space due to equipment being in a chimney recess so to put an mcu behind the equip rack would bring it out too far from the wall, then me nads would be in a sling !! I considered the option to take the spur into a box then up to the MCU and run the remaining to another filter and finally to the system but still have the where do I hide it scenario.

The MCU(s) would be an ideal solution just as you have found, I'll just have to be

with envy lol. sc00bie

 

[Anonymous]

If I hadn't bought the MTU's later I would have put them under the floor!
But seeing that I had to plug things into it I sited them in the best place.

However, hearing the dramatic improvement it made I would have put it anywhere (apart from in front of the telly!!!!) ;-)

 

[Sc00bied00]

Maybe I could convince the downstairs neighbour to lower the ceiling- heh he heh

 

[Anonymous]

a belated thank you to all who have provided advice. it has all been very useful.

trevor: i think i understood your various posts (i think!) - i certainly will explore your suggestion on the sony.

dantan: i have ordered the cyrus 8SE and am sure will be impressed.

thank you again to all.

 

[Anonymous]

HI all - said I'd come back, just forgot til' I saw the post back on page one. I ended up buying the SC-LX90 - the sound for stereo use is sublime. I'm using Monitor Audio RS6's bi-amped and it sounds amazing. Even piping digital to the amp rather than using the analogue outputs of my Cambridge 740C blows my Denon AVR4306 to pieces. I highly recommend an audition before you go the separate stereo amp route. Before anyone jumps on me - I'm not saying the result will be better, just a MUCH simpler setup and the LX90 IMO is so good with music that its' at least worth doing a comparison first.

Before someone asks - I'm using a co-ax connection for now until my new cables turn up - my current ones turned out too short as I had to re-site my CD player. I will definitely be going back to analogue when the new cables arrive but have to say that even via a cheap coaxial digital cable, the LX90 is performing masterfully.

Oh, and enjoy that CD8SE - very jealous ; )

 

[Anonymous]

Damien - congratulations on the Pioneer. And thank you for your feedback. I am looking foreward to receiving the Cyrus - should make a world of difference compared to the Arcam. May I ask what cable you are getting?

Nick: forgot to thank you for your input on the Yamaha v Pioneer. My taste in music is varied (isn't it always) but would probably be mostly rock of the classic variety. You point on the 803+Pioneer being perhaps too forward is well taken - although with this type of music one wouldn't necessarily want something too laid back...?