Musical fidelity M6i or Naim Nait xs to drive my B&W 683

[BenLaw]

I am giving Pulse X another shot as the founder of Vertere wrote me back an email saying it is impossible the Siltech sounds more transparent with better separation of instruments as in his opinion a system with Siltech cabling has almost not existing timing :shifty:

He's stressing the fact that speakers need to be carefully positioned to hear the full potential of the cable as it will open a big "window". Unfortunately i am a bit limited in space...I have tried to bring the speakers a bit closer giving them more space around. It is indeed a better result as I feel the booming is strongly reduced. I still feel a slightly reduced dynamic compared to the Siltech...and it seems a thin veil has been placed on speakers.

He said he will help me to improve the set-up once is back from a show in Las Vegas...let's see. In the meantime I have emailed Sonus Faber in order to get advice on how is best to position the speakers

Was this Touraj Moghaddam?..........and I take it that you informed them of how the test was going.

I think it is good they care enough to follow up.......and if you can get speaking to him, I would take advantage of it, as like John Carrick, he is very knowledgeable (but quite different). I spent an hour with him, and found it worthwhile.

I have to say.I was also very surprised at your findings, as it didn't match up with what I heard; but felt it wasn't appropriate for me to interfere with your verdict. It's one thing recommending cables, it's another telling you what to think.

If he thinks things aren't right, let him organize the dealer to come and oversee the test (and bring some Cardas with him :shifty

Yes, was him! He wrote this to his manager who was in contact with me. He then forwarded the answer to me.

The Siltech Classic Anniversary 330L speaker cable is in no way has more clarity or separation.In fact the performance of the system with that is almost non existent of timing...This is partly due to incorrect harmonic structure and that in turn will impair ‘clarity’ & spatial definition.I have had quite a few encounters where we have done such experiments and the results have been ALWAYS the same.Their system cannot possibly be revealing enough the way it is setup as they have had to leave the system to get even a reasonably good result!Almost everyone at show here who has been to listen has commented it is by far the best... The cables were almost all new!Even the other manufacturer/designers of the other components (TT, Amp & Speakers) couldn’t believe what was happening with their products.You know, better than probably anyone, how critical it is to set the system up with such a big ‘window’ when you use the Pulse... I can talk with them and probably shine some light on where to focus on their system set-up if they give us more detail- Components in the system- Music used for listening- Description of their findings

Is that last paragraph the email you received? Ie that is what was written by Touraj Moghaddam?

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm moving over here, so as not to disrupt the other thread.

Have you also mooched some Black Ravioli?

 

[Roby]

I'm moving over here, so as not to disrupt the other thread.

Have you also mooched some Black Ravioli?

Not yet, next week. But I got a ps audio power plant 3 for demo

Alex

 

[CnoEvil]

Not yet, next week. But I got a ps audio power plant 3 for demo

Alex

That's probably just as well, as assessing too many things can make it hard to know exactly where the changes are coming from.

You certainly have access to a right little toy shop. :twisted:

 

[Macspur]

:O

Ordered the Siltech G7 Classic anniversary 330 XLR's today and have a dealer coming over next Wed to demo some Siltech power chords and SC's.

From the brief conversation I had today with him, in his opinion, in terms of improving SQ, i.c's and power chords take priority over SC's... interesting.

Mac

Nice move Mac! Can't wait to read your impressions.

What I found out is that in my system the pc made almost no difference behind the amp (probably for other problems with the main as all my equipment is plugged into a commercial power strip) but it made a stunning difference behind the phono stage.

Regarding sc and ic I think they should be heard together as they need to complement themselves. I tried first the sc and the difference was already very meaningful especially at low volume. Then i nstalled the ic and it was another system...

Keep us posted!

Certainly will Alex.

Just hope the I.c's arrive before the guy turns up on Wednesday with the other gear!

Mac

 

[acalex]

Not yet, next week. But I got a ps audio power plant 3 for demo

Alex

That's probably just as well, as assessing too many things can make it hard to know exactly where the changes are coming from.

You certainly have access to a right little toy shop. :twisted:

eh eh, you are right... That's why the ps won't be connected before I have assessed the cables first

Yes, now Francis is also an arcam dealer and he's ordering some nice stuff like the AVR360

 

[acalex]

I am giving Pulse X another shot as the founder of Vertere wrote me back an email saying it is impossible the Siltech sounds more transparent with better separation of instruments as in his opinion a system with Siltech cabling has almost not existing timing :shifty:

He's stressing the fact that speakers need to be carefully positioned to hear the full potential of the cable as it will open a big "window". Unfortunately i am a bit limited in space...I have tried to bring the speakers a bit closer giving them more space around. It is indeed a better result as I feel the booming is strongly reduced. I still feel a slightly reduced dynamic compared to the Siltech...and it seems a thin veil has been placed on speakers.

He said he will help me to improve the set-up once is back from a show in Las Vegas...let's see. In the meantime I have emailed Sonus Faber in order to get advice on how is best to position the speakers

Was this Touraj Moghaddam?..........and I take it that you informed them of how the test was going.

I think it is good they care enough to follow up.......and if you can get speaking to him, I would take advantage of it, as like John Carrick, he is very knowledgeable (but quite different). I spent an hour with him, and found it worthwhile.

I have to say.I was also very surprised at your findings, as it didn't match up with what I heard; but felt it wasn't appropriate for me to interfere with your verdict. It's one thing recommending cables, it's another telling you what to think.

If he thinks things aren't right, let him organize the dealer to come and oversee the test (and bring some Cardas with him :shifty

Yes, was him! He wrote this to his manager who was in contact with me. He then forwarded the answer to me.

The Siltech Classic Anniversary 330L speaker cable is in no way has more clarity or separation.In fact the performance of the system with that is almost non existent of timing...This is partly due to incorrect harmonic structure and that in turn will impair ‘clarity’ & spatial definition.I have had quite a few encounters where we have done such experiments and the results have been ALWAYS the same.Their system cannot possibly be revealing enough the way it is setup as they have had to leave the system to get even a reasonably good result!Almost everyone at show here who has been to listen has commented it is by far the best... The cables were almost all new!Even the other manufacturer/designers of the other components (TT, Amp & Speakers) couldn’t believe what was happening with their products.You know, better than probably anyone, how critical it is to set the system up with such a big ‘window’ when you use the Pulse... I can talk with them and probably shine some light on where to focus on their system set-up if they give us more detail- Components in the system- Music used for listening- Description of their findings

Is that last paragraph the email you received? Ie that is what was written by Touraj Moghaddam?

yes, the part I put in bold and italic is Touraj's answer.

 

[CnoEvil]

eh eh, you are right... That's why the ps won't be connected before I have assessed the cables first

Yes, now Francis is also an arcam dealer and he's ordering some nice stuff like the AVR360

Very nice....just be careful what you listen to though. The AVR600 is very, very good......but can be troublesome....though should have been sorted out at this stage.

 

[BenLaw]

I am giving Pulse X another shot as the founder of Vertere wrote me back an email saying it is impossible the Siltech sounds more transparent with better separation of instruments as in his opinion a system with Siltech cabling has almost not existing timing :shifty:

He's stressing the fact that speakers need to be carefully positioned to hear the full potential of the cable as it will open a big "window". Unfortunately i am a bit limited in space...I have tried to bring the speakers a bit closer giving them more space around. It is indeed a better result as I feel the booming is strongly reduced. I still feel a slightly reduced dynamic compared to the Siltech...and it seems a thin veil has been placed on speakers.

He said he will help me to improve the set-up once is back from a show in Las Vegas...let's see. In the meantime I have emailed Sonus Faber in order to get advice on how is best to position the speakers

Was this Touraj Moghaddam?..........and I take it that you informed them of how the test was going.

I think it is good they care enough to follow up.......and if you can get speaking to him, I would take advantage of it, as like John Carrick, he is very knowledgeable (but quite different). I spent an hour with him, and found it worthwhile.

I have to say.I was also very surprised at your findings, as it didn't match up with what I heard; but felt it wasn't appropriate for me to interfere with your verdict. It's one thing recommending cables, it's another telling you what to think.

If he thinks things aren't right, let him organize the dealer to come and oversee the test (and bring some Cardas with him :shifty

Yes, was him! He wrote this to his manager who was in contact with me. He then forwarded the answer to me.

The Siltech Classic Anniversary 330L speaker cable is in no way has more clarity or separation.In fact the performance of the system with that is almost non existent of timing...This is partly due to incorrect harmonic structure and that in turn will impair ‘clarity’ & spatial definition.I have had quite a few encounters where we have done such experiments and the results have been ALWAYS the same.Their system cannot possibly be revealing enough the way it is setup as they have had to leave the system to get even a reasonably good result!Almost everyone at show here who has been to listen has commented it is by far the best... The cables were almost all new!Even the other manufacturer/designers of the other components (TT, Amp & Speakers) couldn’t believe what was happening with their products.You know, better than probably anyone, how critical it is to set the system up with such a big ‘window’ when you use the Pulse... I can talk with them and probably shine some light on where to focus on their system set-up if they give us more detail- Components in the system- Music used for listening- Description of their findings

Is that last paragraph the email you received? Ie that is what was written by Touraj Moghaddam?

yes, the part I put in bold and italic is Touraj's answer.

I don't understand what 'Their system cannot possibly be revealing enough the way it is setup as they have had to leave the system to get even a reasonably good result!' means, does that make sense to you?

 

[acalex]

I don't understand what 'Their system cannot possibly be revealing enough the way it is setup as they have had to leave the system to get even a reasonably good result!' means, does that make sense to you?

To be honest, the all answer is not very clear and this part is indeed the worst. I guess he was writing quickly on some kind of device from an hi-fi show, so not time to be more accurate..

 

[BenLaw]

I don't understand what 'Their system cannot possibly be revealing enough the way it is setup as they have had to leave the system to get even a reasonably good result!' means, does that make sense to you?

To be honest, the all answer is not very clear and this part is indeed the worst. I guess he was writing quickly on some kind of device from an hi-fi show, so not time to be more accurate..

I'm glad it's not just me then! The word 'unintelligible' sprang to mind.

Even so, it seems pretty poor form to slag off a rival manufacturer's product in such a blatant way. I have no idea what 'incorrect harmonic structure' could possibly mean, but my understanding of cable belief was that cables would be system dependent? (Like in the blind test Cno linked to.) So I assume you must all disagree with him when he says 'results are always the same', the siltech 'in no way has more clarity or separation' and it is 'almost non existent of timing'?

 

[acalex]

I don't understand what 'Their system cannot possibly be revealing enough the way it is setup as they have had to leave the system to get even a reasonably good result!' means, does that make sense to you?

To be honest, the all answer is not very clear and this part is indeed the worst. I guess he was writing quickly on some kind of device from an hi-fi show, so not time to be more accurate..

I'm glad it's not just me then! The word 'unintelligible' sprang to mind.

Even so, it seems pretty poor form to slag off a rival manufacturer's product in such a blatant way. I have no idea what 'incorrect harmonic structure' could possibly mean, but my understanding of cable belief was that cables would be system dependent? (Like in the blind test Cno linked to.) So I assume you must all disagree with him when he says 'results are always the same', the siltech 'in no way has more clarity or separation' and it is 'almost non existent of timing'?

It is indeed quite poor reaction and that would be enough usually to make we walk away as I don't like this form of marketing. He probably didn't mean to send this email to me as this part was the content of a mail forwarded to me by his operational manager.

But they allowed to keep me the cables a bit more so I kept an open mind and re-connected the cable. I did also a little bit of speaker re-positioning but unfortunately the space around the living room is very limited.

Lets see how it goes and if they get I touch again next week as promised. For now I have tellurium q ultra black at home to try.

 

[BenLaw]

I think we've discussed your room setup and acoustics before, and I know you're not keen on my words of caution re cables, but IMO it would be sensible to sort out positioning and any room treatment that might be possible (even if both of these are limited) before you spend large sums of money on fancy tone controls which may not have an appropriate effect when you change some of these things in future.

Anyway, I'll leave it there for now

 

[Macspur]

I don't understand what 'Their system cannot possibly be revealing enough the way it is setup as they have had to leave the system to get even a reasonably good result!' means, does that make sense to you?

To be honest, the all answer is not very clear and this part is indeed the worst. I guess he was writing quickly on some kind of device from an hi-fi show, so not time to be more accurate..

I'm glad it's not just me then! The word 'unintelligible' sprang to mind.

Even so, it seems pretty poor form to slag off a rival manufacturer's product in such a blatant way. I have no idea what 'incorrect harmonic structure' could possibly mean, but my understanding of cable belief was that cables would be system dependent? (Like in the blind test Cno linked to.) So I assume you must all disagree with him when he says 'results are always the same', the siltech 'in no way has more clarity or separation' and it is 'almost non existent of timing'?

Must admit, was a bit uncomfortable myself when I read that... anyone who slights another manufacturer like that, I would personally have question marks against!

Mac

 

[CnoEvil]

When I met Touraj, he was knowledgeable and interesting but quite forthright.....but he certainly didn't slag off the opposition, as imo he felt his product could stand on its own merit - and from what I heard, he was right.

I am not really trying to defend what he said, but like a few leading lights in the industry, he can probably come across as a little arrogant (Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note springs to mind). IMO. This springs from a feeling that they are right, and like some great surgeons, are brilliant but a bit blunt.

I also would be surprised if that email was ever meant for a potential customer's eyes, as it was his thoughts about the situation to his agent.

I have a strong suspicion that he knows exactly what he is talking about (even if we don't), and it will be worth seeing if he comes up with something insightful.

At the end of the day, you have other great cables to fall back on, so you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

 

[BenLaw]

When I met Touraj, he was knowledgeable and interesting but quite forthright.....but he certainly didn't slag off the opposition, as imo he felt his product could stand on its own merit - and from what I heard, he was right.

I am not really trying to defend what he said, but like a few leading lights in the industry, he can probably come across as a little arrogant (Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note springs to mind). IMO. This springs from a feeling that they are right, and like some great surgeons, are brilliant but a bit blunt.

I also would be surprised if that email was ever meant for a potential customer's eyes, as it was his thoughts about the situation to his agent.

I have a strong suspicion that he knows exactly what he is talking about (even if we don't), and it will be worth seeing if he comes up with something insightful.

At the end of the day, you have other great cables to fall back on, so you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

So if he knows exactly what he is talking about and is therefore right, it means there are very severe problems with Alex's setup such that a cable that could not possibly beat the vertere is somehow sounding better. Would you therefore agree now is not the time to be spending so much money on cables before these deep seated problems are rectified?

 

[CnoEvil]

So if he knows exactly what he is talking about and is therefore right, it means there are very severe problems with Alex's setup such that a cable that could not possibly beat the vertere is somehow sounding better. Would you therefore agree now is not the time to be spending so much money on cables before these deep seated problems are rectified?

Yes and no........which is a very Cno answer! :shifty:

If Alex lived in his final house and was prepared to turn the sitting room into a "dedicated listening space", complete with bass traps and acoustic panels, then that is a sensible way to go....sometimes you just have to make the best of what you've got, or allowed to do.

It is possible that some cables work better in less than ideal situations and so are a better compromise. So in this case I think it is worth letting this one play out, in case TM can come up with something that greatly helps.

I still think it is still possible to pick the cable that has the right mixture of performance and VFM......and things will only get better when the room acoustics are able to be sorted out.

FWIW. I think it is a good thing to have a voice of reason advising caution.....though Alex and Rob are listening to a big range of stuff at different prices, that they are giving themselves the best chance of getting it right.

 

[acalex]

Thanks for your interest guys...as Cno said correctly I am renting do there is NO WAY I can make any permanent modification to the living room where the system sits. Not any chance either to change the way the furniture is placed as there are a few constraints which won't allow moving stuff in a different way they are now (L-shaped sofa, entrance door, huge windows etc etc).

What I am doing already is removing all reflective surfaces (mirror, glasses) replacing them with wood if possible. The mirror that was hanging behind the sofa will be replaced by a 120x80 canvas which I will fill with absorbing material on the back (kind of foam). The glass table has been replaced with a massive wooden one, the cheapo Ikea bookshelf will be also replaced by a wooden one. Curtains are already present and quite thick, also the floor has a big carpte. I am trying to convince my OH to put another carpet just in front of the system...is a work in progress

Now speakers positioning, unfortunately speakers have not many cm on both sided to play with...so I will be obliged to play with some Acoustica Applicata and isolation platforms. That's the max I can do.

Now back to the cable business, I am absolutely not trying to control the tone of my system but, on the other hand, I am trying to get cables which are the most transparent possible with the best image and detail given the money I want to spend (which compared to the whole cost of the system is a very balanced amount IMO).

 

[CnoEvil]

Now back to the cable business, I am absolutely not trying to control the tone of my system but, on the other hand, I am trying to get cables which are the most transparent possible with the best image and detail given the money I want to spend (which compared to the whole cost of the system is a very balanced amount IMO).

Did you get the TQ power cords as well?

Now, it will be good to get feed back on (pros and cons):

- TQ vs Siltech

- Ultra Black vs Graphite....is Graphite worth the difference

- Graphite I/C with Ultra Black S/C worth doing

- Effect TQ has on the two different systems ie. does it work with one better than the other

 

[CnoEvil]

oke: :quest:

 

[acalex]

Not much time to listen today as I had to do some works to make things nicer...almost done.

Enjoying tonight a lit bit of vinlys...and must say since the beginning I prefer the UltraBlack to the Vertere. More transparent and more detailed...at least for now

 

[Macspur]

Not much time to listen today as I had to do some works to make things nicer...almost done.

Enjoying tonight a lit bit of vinlys...and must say since the beginning I prefer the UltraBlack to the Vertere. More transparent and more detailed...at least for now

and compared to Siltech?

Mac

 

[Roby]

Wel what to say first of all my impression is that the graphite's are incredibly close to those 330l my feeling is that the siltech are a little lighter a bit more agile...but tqg are really exceptional

but the difference are hard to spot but to the tq are not better or worse than the Siltech's just slightly different but costing a little less than double the price of a pair of 330L

vfm is Shute for Siltech's at the same price would be almost impossible to make a choice

will try to expand a little later (not using an IPad)

 

[CnoEvil]

Wel what to say first of all my impression is that the graphite's are incredibly close to those 330l my feeling is that the siltech are a little lighter a bit more agile...but tqg are really exceptional

but the difference are hard to spot but to the tq are not better or worse than the Siltech's just slightly different but costing a little less than double the price of a pair of 330L

vfm is Shute for Siltech's at the same price would be almost impossible to make a choice

will try to expand a little later (not using an IPad)

Look forward to it.

- Does that mean the Siltech 330i is better than the Ultra Black?

 

[acalex]

Wel what to say first of all my impression is that the graphite's are incredibly close to those 330l my feeling is that the siltech are a little lighter a bit more agile...but tqg are really exceptional

but the difference are hard to spot but to the tq are not better or worse than the Siltech's just slightly different but costing a little less than double the price of a pair of 330L

vfm is Shute for Siltech's at the same price would be almost impossible to make a choice

will try to expand a little later (not using an IPad)

Look forward to it.

- Does that mean the Siltech 330i is better than the Ultra Black?

I have the UB at home as Rob took the graphite

I must say these cables are exceptional, very detailed and transparent...imo quite better than the Vertere I unplugged. The UB give a neat image...I think the 330L are still slight better in terms of musicality. I will keep playing the UB for another couple of days before switching to the Siltech again.

I am also now using the PS Audio Power Plant 3...