MP3 (320 kbps) VS flac/wav

[MajorFubar]

Have a search on the internet and see if you can find theoretical support for your viewpoint.

I don't need to. There is a fledgling-but-growing industry of hi-res downloads, not to mention existing DVD-A and SA-CDs, all of which potentially offer better-than-CD resolution. By your reckoning, all the people who buy those formats are kidding themselves, and all the manufacturers of such technologies know they're a con but hopefully there are enough mugs around to make it pay.

I haven't really heard hi-res formats in any great number, but I remain open minded to their benefits. The fact that I do remain open-minded to ideas is frequently the underlying theme of my posts, quite often in the face of people who say "such and such cannot be so", be it the perceived benefits of specialist cables, hi-res audio-formats or whatever.

To me, the potential benefits of audio sampled in a higher-resolution than 16/44 remains very clear, particularly in the higher frequencies, which I feel have always been CD's weak-point.

 

[Anonymous]

There is a fledgling-but-growing industry of hi-res downloads, not to mention existing DVD-A and SA-CDs, all of which potentially offer better-than-CD resolution. By your reckoning, all the people who buy those formats are kidding themselves, and all the manufacturers of such technologies know they're a con but hopefully there are enough mugs around to make it pay.

In the same vein, you could also argue that there is also a strong industry of opiates. By your reckoning, people who buy such stuff are genuinely better off than those who don't, and the manufacturers/distributors of such are in no way exploiting an uninformed and/or will-challenged audience?

Disclaimer: no offence intended, I'm just pointing out that the argument "it sells, so it must be good" is not an argument at all.

I haven't really heard hi-res formats in any great number, but I remain open minded to their benefits.

As do I. But I choose to remain open to the possibility that those benefits can be achieved by skill instead of technology.

To me, the potential benefits of audio sampled in a higher-resolution than 16/44 remains very clear, particularly in the higher frequencies, which I feel have always been CD's weak-point.

Page 23 of the report addresses exactly your concern: it shows (with a graph) that frequencies near the top end of the spectrum are attenuated (lose energy). This is not because of the sampling rate, but due to the sampling itself. It also explains how A/D converters avoid this problem: upsampling. Quoting:

'such faster sampling is common practice with both AD and DA hardware. Most AD's today are made of two sections: a front end (modulator) and a back end (decimator). The front end operates at very fast rates (typically at 64 -512 times faster then the data output rate).'

'One should not confuse modulator speed or up sampling DA with sample rate, such as in the case of 192KHz for audio. You do not need "more dots" for better accuracy'

If you're only interested in pictures, then take a look at page 24. It shows what happens with a 17kHz sine wave when it's sampled at 44.1kHz. As Dan shows, the digitized version does not look like a sine wave at all. Yet, when passed through a low-pass filter, you magically get the original sine wave back (no, it's not magic, it's math).

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

There are very good reasons to "record" in higher resolution, and that's because of multiple mixes, edits, masters, chopping music around. All this can introduce errors. The higher the resolution, the smaller the errors will be.

The final CD at 16/44.1 gives an "exact" representation of the analogue so long as no frequencies above 20 Khz or so are present. He explained it pretty well.

Imagine it like editing a photograph. A high quality JPEG is undistinguishable from a bitmap on a computer screen, but ideally you "edit" the RAW file and save as JPEG. If you want to edit again, you go back to the RAW (or usually PSD (photoshop)), because all changes to the JPEG are lossy. So the more you edit, and re-edit the more potential errors creep in.

So when you want to make a new mix, master of a recording, you go back to the higher resolution version, do your stuff, and record to CD at 16/44.1

I think your digital photographic analogy doesn't hold ground here. if high quality JPEG is undistinguishable from RAW so why in the 9 hells should we be using RAWs? isn't it better to just have a master in JPEG and work on from there?

likewise with music files. if 16/44.1kHz PCM is the peak of acoustical digitalisation why use masters of higher bitrates?

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

The only plausible reason I've seen to suppose higher samping rate for playback is better quality than 44.1 KHz is the argument that you get all the extra information above 20 KHz, whch although inaudible, can possibly be felt, or that their interaction with lower frequencies can have an affect on harmonics lower down.

Extra bits is irrelevant. The 16 bits gives us a dynamic range of 96 dB, which is far higher than any recording, and in fact if utilised, then played back so we could hear both the quietest AND loudest parts of the music above the noise floor would cause permanent injury to the ears!

I think you're missing the point with CD quality (16 bit resolution) dynamic range. it's true that there isn't, and never will be, a recording utilising its full dynamic range, because if there was it would be pointless. 16 bit -> 96dB dynamic range represents volume level from saturation down to noise flor. I say it'll be pointless to use full dynamic range because you'll most likely not be able to hear any signal below 15dB. still, 96 dB is high enough to acurately capture even full blown symphonic orchestra. however, extra bits of high res files (24 bits -> some 120dB dynamic range) can be usefull to avoid digital clipping so often exploited on many popular recordings. but then again it'll only take loudness war to another level...

 

[Anonymous]

Have a search on the internet and see if you can find theoretical support for your viewpoint.

I don't need to. There is a fledgling-but-growing industry of hi-res downloads, not to mention existing DVD-A and SA-CDs, all of which potentially offer better-than-CD resolution. By your reckoning, all the people who buy those formats are kidding themselves, and all the manufacturers of such technologies know they're a con but hopefully there are enough mugs around to make it pay.

I haven't really heard hi-res formats in any great number, but I remain open minded to their benefits. The fact that I do remain open-minded to ideas is frequently the underlying theme of my posts, quite often in the face of people who say "such and such cannot be so", be it the perceived benefits of specialist cables, hi-res audio-formats or whatever.

To me, the potential benefits of audio sampled in a higher-resolution than 16/44 remains very clear, particularly in the higher frequencies, which I feel have always been CD's weak-point.

Major,

Sampling and digital audio is a technical discipline. There are fundamental theorems that underpin the process. Feeling that something may be so, doesn't make it so, and the lack of theoretical support for an opinion in a technical environment does bring in to question its validity.

There are good technical reasons why hires could sound better - mainly due to allowing designers more freedom on the design of the analogue filter stages after the DAC, but this has nothing to do with the sampling process itself. While I understand it is counterintuitive, sampling at twice the maximum frequency in a band limited system will get 100% of the information. In this case, more is not better.

 

[Anonymous]

I think your digital photographic analogy doesn't hold ground here. if high quality JPEG is undistinguishable from RAW so why in the 9 hells should we be using RAWs? isn't it better to just have a master in JPEG and work on from there?

likewise with music files. if 16/44.1kHz PCM is the peak of acoustical digitalisation why use masters of higher bitrates?

Because once you start editing the JPEG and re-saving you introduce errors (artifacts), that can be avoided if editing the original RAW, or TIFF. Exactly the same as with the music files. It holds perfect ground

It's one reason why I use RAW for all my photography, and the same reason why I rip CDs to FLAC, even though I can't distinguish them from 320 kbps MP3 or AAC.

 

[Anonymous]

"a 24/96 download may well have come from a different master than the 16/44.1 CD"

Very true, a lot of the recent 24/96 downloads appearing on HDtracks originate from SACD and DVDa master sources. In a lot of cases these are not only remasters but remixes where the original multi-tracks have been imported digitally in Pro-tools (at a high sample rate) from which new two channel and 5.1 surround master mixes have been created.

Take for example Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, the standard two channel 24/96 DVDa mix is quite different in parts to the CD version. However the sound quality of 24/96 is superior to CD, and the above techniques combined with the extra resolution on offer do allow the listener a closer insight to the original tracks/recording sessions.

 

[Anonymous]

I was wondering (if any of you highly technical people are still around on this thread) a couple of unrelated things.

first would the resulting information be exactly the same for a recording originally sampled at 48K (I believe the sample rate of DAC) and later transferred to CD quality. This is assuming that no compression was present on the origianal 48K file). Would there be a slight skewing of the information or would the frequency range simply be narrowed to meet the new format?

Secondly regarding the effect that the higher filtered frequencies above 20k may have on lower harmonics, if a recording was live, would these effects be picked up in the recording and therefore the higher frequences be irrelevent anyway? Or perhaps reflect the space in which the sound was recorded rather than being allowed to be shaped by the listening room? This all seems very complex, i think i will switch from FLAC to MP3 320 after reading throught the posts here.

m

 

[quadpatch]

I don't know for sure what 48k to 44k would do but my guess would be resampling not clamping. For bot of your points I would say just test it for yourself. Get some 48k music and convert it to 44k and do an AB test between them.

Same for FLAC vs MP3 320, convert the MP3s from the FLAC files and compare yourself. You should deffinitely not make up your mind on what other people say, everyone is different. Personally I would never dump FLAC in favour of MP3 320 but my opinion means nothing to you.

 

[landzw]

God some people are so touchy with certain debates, its real simple most people are not going to notice a big difference between flac and mp3 when your playing on a docking station like a bose docking station, or maybe through £50 headphones. of course there will be some difference but nothing to make you think WOW its a no brainer.

No when playing on through a quality system . e.g. dac , amp & speakers you are going to notice the difference in the WOW format.

I can notice the difference on my £400 Yamaha MCR-555 system but doesn't make me thing i should rip all my music to FLAC as i'm limited to my system cabablity's.

So really when someone asks should i rip all my music to lossless or mp3 ( aac ) or what format then you should really be asking what kind of listening your going to be doing and what is your system?

 

[fr0g]

So really when someone asks should i rip all my music to lossless or mp3 ( aac ) or what format then you should really be asking what kind of listening your going to be doing and what is your system?

I think the point is, that 99% of people cannot hear the difference on any system. I certainly can't. I thought I could, but then I did a blind test which proved otherwise.

My main system. ADM9.1T speakers. Very revealing. Can I tell, no.

I have even tried it (briefly) on a system comprising B&W 800D speakers and thousands of pounds worth of Classe amplification. 190 Kbps MP3 sounded stunning.

It's the master, not the codec.

I wouldn't claim nobody can tell, but I have yet to see someone who can, and my default belief is that pretty much nobody can.

Someone saying "I can" isn't good enough for any sort of conclusion, it's heresay...nothing more. Blind ABX test with 20 repetitions, get it right 20 times and then I'll start to change my mind.

Of course though, I would always suggest ripping to FLAC, ALAC or any other lossless format, WAV if you're a masochist. But I am perfectly happy to "listen" to HQ MP3 files.

 

[quadpatch]

God some people are so touchy with certain debates

Who's touchy?

 

[professorhat]

God some people are so touchy with certain debates

Who's touchy?

Clicky

 

[Lee H]

God some people are so touchy with certain debates

Who's touchy?

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Yes, I know, but that's how a mate of mine pronounced it once

 

[landzw]

God some people are so touchy with certain debates

Who's touchy?

Clicky

lol can you get that in mp3 or i guess i would need the flac version ?

Not everyone gets Touchy but you do get the odd one when it goes against the grain.

See for me i have gone back to the cd and have also ripped my cd collection to aac 320kps so when i'm at home or car its the cd and when i'm out and about and down the gym its the aac version.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm going to throw a curve ball in here. Bring back Atrac. Sony's format. I only listen to my MP3 at work and at night in bed at low volume (helps me sleep) and with my Atrac based unit I have music stored at maximum compression for storage as it only has 1gig capacity so music is at 48kbps and to my ears this sounds far better than my Sony NWZX1060 that plays aac and MP3 that I have at 128kbps (i still want a large amount of music on the unit). This annoys me somewhat as the reviews of the NXZX1060 when it was launched said it was the best sounding MP3 by far. Sorry not to me.
Any way I ripped my first CD's into flac tonight, ready for I hope a future streaming addition to my hifi. And even through cheap JVC headphones flac sounds miles better than aac and MP3

That's my rant over.

Nick

 

[Anonymous]

It is tricky because FLAC wont play on my itunes which i need for airplay and apple lossless wont play on my blackberry so MP3 plays on all three.

There is probably a difference but i cannot hear it on my setup as by the time i have swapped sources i have forgotten what the previous was like but after listening to the excellent Fake Fish Distribution which is only available on MP3 and getting completely involved in the detail i am thinking it is better to just have the one version of everything that plays universally (ie MP3). Also they are cheaper to buy on Boomkat!

I would still be fascinated if someone actually knows about the 48k to 44k conversion ??

 

[fr0g]

I'm going to throw a curve ball in here. Bring back Atrac. Sony's format. I only listen to my MP3 at work and at night in bed at low volume (helps me sleep) and with my Atrac based unit I have music stored at maximum compression for storage as it only has 1gig capacity so music is at 48kbps and to my ears this sounds far better than my Sony NWZX1060 that plays aac and MP3 that I have at 128kbps (i still want a large amount of music on the unit). This annoys me somewhat as the reviews of the NXZX1060 when it was launched said it was the best sounding MP3 by far. Sorry not to me. Any way I ripped my first CD's into flac tonight, ready for I hope a future streaming addition to my hifi. And even through cheap JVC headphones flac sounds miles better than aac and MP3 That's my rant over. Nick

It's not a curve ball, it's comparing a lossy codec at low bitrate to lossless and declaring the lossless codec is worse. That's like comparing 2 TVs and declaring one as winner after you tested one with Channel 5's SD broadcast and the other with Blueray.

128K is usually quite listenable, but nobody would call it "transparent". Try again at 256K VBR or more.

 

[Anonymous]

I think you misunderstood my rant. I was initially comparing 2 lossy codecs with each other Sony's atrac with MP3.
In my opinion even at It's lowest bitrate atrac is better than MP3 at a higher bitrate.
I don't think either of these formats compare to flac. Like I said I ripped my first few CD's into flac last night and listened to them through cheap JVC headphones and flac sounded miles better than both atrac and MP3.

 

[shafesk]

MP3 at 320 kbps sounds exactly like a WAV or Flac file in my opinion. I tried and tried but could not hear a difference.

Some people here have a different opinion on this ? I'd like to hear it

I agree.

Preaching to the choir here, my system adds up to almost 3000 pounds....I assume its decent right? Am using expensive interconnects, speaker cables, surge protector and a ups. Still, I can hear no difference whatsoever even with well-recorded stuff. Some might disagree and yes I still rip my cds to losless just incase I get a 20000 pound system that will tell the difference

 

[Anonymous]

I think you misunderstood my rant. I was initially comparing 2 lossy codecs with each other Sony's atrac with MP3. In my opinion even at It's lowest bitrate atrac is better than MP3 at a higher bitrate. I don't think either of these formats compare to flac. Like I said I ripped my first few CD's into flac last night and listened to them through cheap JVC headphones and flac sounded miles better than both atrac and MP3.

Sorry 3 lossy codecs, atrac, MP3, and aac.

 

[fr0g]

I think you misunderstood my rant. I was initially comparing 2 lossy codecs with each other Sony's atrac with MP3. In my opinion even at It's lowest bitrate atrac is better than MP3 at a higher bitrate. I don't think either of these formats compare to flac. Like I said I ripped my first few CD's into flac last night and listened to them through cheap JVC headphones and flac sounded miles better than both atrac and MP3.

Sorry 3 lossy codecs, atrac, MP3, and aac.

It isn't the codec.

I have yet to meet anyone who can tell 320 Kpbs MP3 from WAV and prove it. So if a 64K Atrac sounds "better", it possibly sounds "different", as 64K is very low quality, and your preference is a subjective thing. Or it could be a bad rip.

 

[Anonymous]

I think you misunderstood my rant. I was initially comparing 2 lossy codecs with each other Sony's atrac with MP3. In my opinion even at It's lowest bitrate atrac is better than MP3 at a higher bitrate. I don't think either of these formats compare to flac. Like I said I ripped my first few CD's into flac last night and listened to them through cheap JVC headphones and flac sounded miles better than both atrac and MP3.

Sorry 3 lossy codecs, atrac, MP3, and aac.

It isn't the codec.

I have yet to meet anyone who can tell 320 Kpbs MP3 from WAV and prove it. So if a 64K Atrac sounds "better", it possibly sounds "different", as 64K is very low quality, and your preference is a subjective thing. Or it could be a bad rip.

I think your probably right on that one. I only have MP3 and aac at 128kbps(for storage capacity) I have never heard files at 256 or 320. I presume if I had atrac at the higher bit rate and compared it to MP3 or aac at those rates the difference would be negligible. And maybe Sony's old players were geared to get the best out of atrac as it was there format. I just wish the current crop of Sony's were still compatible with it as well as aac and MP3. It was clearly a market led decision by Sony to ditch atrac in favour of the other two formats. I'm going to compare the formats at the higher bit rates as I have a little bit of space left on my old atrac unit and shed loads left on my NWZX1060. I might redo all my music at the higher bit rate I think 200+ cds at 320kbps will fit on a 32gig MP3 player. And Sony how about making your MP3 players flac compatible the Media Go software can rip to and play flac.

 

[manicm]

I think you misunderstood my rant. I was initially comparing 2 lossy codecs with each other Sony's atrac with MP3. In my opinion even at It's lowest bitrate atrac is better than MP3 at a higher bitrate. I don't think either of these formats compare to flac. Like I said I ripped my first few CD's into flac last night and listened to them through cheap JVC headphones and flac sounded miles better than both atrac and MP3.

Sorry 3 lossy codecs, atrac, MP3, and aac.

It isn't the codec.

I have yet to meet anyone who can tell 320 Kpbs MP3 from WAV and prove it. So if a 64K Atrac sounds "better", it possibly sounds "different", as 64K is very low quality, and your preference is a subjective thing. Or it could be a bad rip.

You have yet to meet anyone who can't tell? You need to get out more.

 

[fr0g]

I think you misunderstood my rant. I was initially comparing 2 lossy codecs with each other Sony's atrac with MP3. In my opinion even at It's lowest bitrate atrac is better than MP3 at a higher bitrate. I don't think either of these formats compare to flac. Like I said I ripped my first few CD's into flac last night and listened to them through cheap JVC headphones and flac sounded miles better than both atrac and MP3.

Sorry 3 lossy codecs, atrac, MP3, and aac.

It isn't the codec.

I have yet to meet anyone who can tell 320 Kpbs MP3 from WAV and prove it. So if a 64K Atrac sounds "better", it possibly sounds "different", as 64K is very low quality, and your preference is a subjective thing. Or it could be a bad rip.

I think your probably right on that one. I only have MP3 and aac at 128kbps(for storage capacity) I have never heard files at 256 or 320. I presume if I had atrac at the higher bit rate and compared it to MP3 or aac at those rates the difference would be negligible. And maybe Sony's old players were geared to get the best out of atrac as it was there format. I just wish the current crop of Sony's were still compatible with it as well as aac and MP3. It was clearly a market led decision by Sony to ditch atrac in favour of the other two formats. I'm going to compare the formats at the higher bit rates as I have a little bit of space left on my old atrac unit and shed loads left on my NWZX1060. I might redo all my music at the higher bit rate I think 200+ cds at 320kbps will fit on a 32gig MP3 player. And Sony how about making your MP3 players flac compatible the Media Go software can rip to and play flac.

Don't rip to 320, it isn't worth it. Rip to around 220 VBR. At that bitrate I doubt very much you could tell the difference. In fact I would put money on it.