Moving to a DAC

[matthewpiano]

The question is, how do I go about 'modernising' the source part of my system, bearing in mind that manageable navigation of a huge number of classical titles (in addition to all the other stuff) is of prime importance (and something that the existing Squeezbox 3 can occasionally hinder), do I:

TBH it will all come down to how you TAG the albums. If you do it well then I cant see an issue with the SB3 and certainly not with the Touch.

How many Clasical CDs do you have? and how/what are you using for taging now? when looking for some music how do you want to search for it?

I'm currently ripping using iTunes (ALAC with error correction switched on). Occasionally there are issues with incorrect or incomplete album info which aren't the Squeezebox's fault. I have been having issues with Squeezebox Server splitting a single disc into two seperate parts but I've just managed to sort that out by changing a couple of settings, so I'm not sure there is too much of an issue now, apart from the small display on the Squeezebox 3 that doesn't show much information at any one time, but the image/artwork display of the Touch would resolve this.

In terms of numbers just over half of my nearly 3,000 discs are classical and the number will only keep growing, although once I'm established with streaming I'm keen to start thinking about lossless (and better) downloads. What I will need to think about then is the best way to back everything up.

 

[matthewpiano]

Right, OK. Still having an issue. I have just ripped a CD of Glenn Gould playing Bach. In iTunes all the tracks are showing under one album, but on Squeezebox Server it is showing two albums with the same title. The first track alone is in one of them, and the rest of the CD is in the other. There is no difference between the two album titles, artist information, date etc. and on my external hard drive the whole album is stored in one folder. This just doesn't make sense and is the sort of thing that might put me off Squeezebox if I can't find a solution...

 

[nads]

iTunes great isnt it.

I don't use it for the SB at all I rip with EAC and TAG with "Media Monkey" so sorry I cant help on that but I think you can sort it by telling iTunes in is not part of a compilation and it then keeps the tracks as one album. I only use iTunes for the phone where I am on shuffle anyway so don't really care.

With the touch I can pic an play any album in its entirety or any composer not had any missing songs etc but like I said I don't use iTunes.

EAC does allow renaming of albums before ripping so if the auto found info is not found or is wrong you can edit it.

Good luck as that is a lot of CDs.

 

[the record spot]

Welcome to one of the major pains in the backside for this kind of thing. I find it too offputting as well, which is another of the bugbears I have with it all. The other point you raise is storage/backup. Not an issue Matt, go to Amazon and get a Western Digital Elements 1 or 2TB external HDD. £50 / £65 respectively. If you want to be super-safe, get two and keep the second backup at a second location. I know guys with massive collections who have several backups (three at least) with one being kept offsite at a relative's! On the other hand, your music is going to be pretty safe.

If you're looking at the Mac Mini, the Apple store will have some refurbished units, so you can save some money, still get a full guarantee and know Apple engineers will have been at it to make sure it's okay, so peace of mind should be good. Roughly £600 or so and you can return.

 

[Rich27]

Matthew, I'd urge you to have a good look at the Emotiva XDA-1, you'll not see too much of it in the mags, or in the shops, but they're a US brand, Item Audio in the UK have them and will send you a loan DAC out to try. £350. If you don't like it, you just pay the shipping. Incidentally, it uses the same DAC as you'll find in the Benchmark - the Analog Devices AD1955. I wouldn't be too put off by the lack of coverage either or that Emotiva aren't a well-known name.

That Emotiva looks like serious vfm, have you heard one? Also not taking the preverbial on UK pricing like other US stuff.

 

[matthewpiano]

I've solved the problem by deleting the Glenn Gould disc and ripping it again, although I'd love to know why it went wrong the first time.

More importantly I've found a useful 'Beginners Guide' to ripping and tagging classical music on the Slimdevices Wiki and I think I'm going to have to review the iTunes situation and rip FLAC using EAC instead, and then use tagging software, particularly with the classical discs. Its going to be a mammoth job, but at least once it's done (and backed up) it's done for good.

Still got some hardware decisions to make but at least I'm getting my head around some of the issues!

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi,

If you are thinking of getting the M1 CLiC later this has its own DAC, or am I missing something here?

Hmmm. So it has! Although I think I'm probably more likely to get the CDT and use something else for streaming. Thanks for pointing it out.

The Audiolab is well worth a listen. I can only gauge it on my source and amp - and it was a fairly brief affair - and I chopped and changed between DB1is and Totem, and it sounded impressive, although if I was to dip my toes in the Audiolab I would be reluctant partner it with MAs and Totems unless I had a good home demo (I know you don't have these monitors, but I'm not familiar with your current speakers).

 

[Ajani]

OK, maybe NADs has a point. Perhaps it is time to start moving towards storing everything on Hard Drive and streaming it. No disc transport noise, no piles of discs cluttering the lounge (though they would still have to be stored somewhere as I would never let them go), and instant access to my music. I've been listening to the Squeezebox this afternoon and it sounds every bit as good as my CD player.

The question is, how do I go about 'modernising' the source part of my system, bearing in mind that manageable navigation of a huge number of classical titles (in addition to all the other stuff) is of prime importance (and something that the existing Squeezbox 3 can occasionally hinder), do I:

1) Go Mac Mini based (plugged into the TV), with a DAC. How much noise does a Mac Mini emit?? This is a really important consideration as the last thing I want is the wirring of fans during the quiet bits of a Wagner overture!! My other concern is that I'm not sure I want the TV on all the time while I'm listening as apart from anything else it produces a small amount of noise itself.

2) Upgrade to the Squeezebox Touch and aim to squeeze greater performance out of it by adding a really good DAC later. The Spotify support would be very useful and I think the display of album artwork would make navigation of classical recordings much easier.

3) Look at other options for streaming clients. Would something like the M1 CLiC give me discernably better performance? What about the new Cambridge Audio NP30??

What I really don't want is something with storage built-in like the Olive 3HD that doesn't allow use of an external drive to add capacity. I've already got the best part of 3,000 discs and I don't want to be restricted in the future.

I ditched my CDPs years ago in favour of a MAC Mini based music server. I currently use a M-Audio Transit USB (from my Dell laptop) with a Benchmark DAC1 (I also have a Squeezebox 3, Emotiva XDA1 DAC and XPA2 amp as a 2nd system)...

A mac mini is silent (which is why so many audiophiles use them), so it would be a good choice...

 

[Anonymous]

I suggest you ripping with XLD, which supports the latest CD Paranoia engine for bit perfect rips.

Oh, and it also tags your albums and put artwork on them, using the freedb and musicbrainz databases on the 'net.

 

[matthewpiano]

I suggest you ripping with XLD, which supports the latest CD Paranoia engine for bit perfect rips.

Oh, and it also tags your albums and put artwork on them, using the freedb and musicbrainz databases on the 'net.

Thanks. I'll have a look, though I think I have now settled on EAC, ripping FLAC. Everything is working really well this way. Much better than using iTunes.

 

[busb]

Matthew, I'd urge you to have a good look at the Emotiva XDA-1, you'll not see too much of it in the mags, or in the shops, but they're a US brand, Item Audio in the UK have them and will send you a loan DAC out to try. £350. If you don't like it, you just pay the shipping. Incidentally, it uses the same DAC as you'll find in the Benchmark - the Analog Devices AD1955. I wouldn't be too put off by the lack of coverage either or that Emotiva aren't a well-known name.

This is one of the items on my shortlist. If, when my next freelance contract comes up, I'm still looking round for a new amp or DAC or whatever, then the Emotiva will definitely be on my shortlist. Link to the Item Audio page below and Emotiva themselves further down.

http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/emotiva_xda1.html

http://www.emotiva.com/

Hey RS - thanks for highlighting this DAC. On paper, it seems great & has a remote control which is something I want. The ability to audition then return if disappointed for the cost of postage makes it to my shortlist, non-withstanding the comments below:

I own both a Benchmark DAC1 and an Emotiva XDA-1.... I don't recommend the Emotiva... It has lots of features, but the sound is nothing special for the money... Also, I generally don't recommend Emotiva if you are a non-us customer (as I am)...

Ajani - your comments regarding the EMO XDA-1's SQ noted. Could you expand why you don't recommend EMO products outside the USA?

Regards

 

[spockfish]

You should also consider buying a decent NAS from Synology for example. Besides the obvious storage capacity and redundancy it possible to run Squeezebox Server on the NAS. With this and a proper DAC you have a great streaming solution. Keep in mind that a Squeezebox provides way better usability than a DLNA/Upnp based streamer.

Rip tip: use EAC to rip to FLAC and 'Album Art Downloader' for the graphics. The result is excellent and works great for the Squeezebox. Make sure you create proper cue sheets because the Squeezebox is able to read them.

 

[spockfish]

You should also consider buying a decent NAS from Synology for example. Besides the obvious storage capacity and redundancy it possible to run Squeezebox Server on the NAS. With this and a proper DAC you have a great streaming solution. Keep in mind that a Squeezebox provides way better usability than a DLNA/Upnp based streamer.

Rip tip: use EAC to rip to FLAC and 'Album Art Downloader' for the graphics. The result is excellent and works great for the Squeezebox. Make sure you create proper cue sheets because the Squeezebox is able to read them.

 

[nads]

Thanks. I'll have a look, though I think I have now settled on EAC, ripping FLAC. Everything is working really well this way. Much better than using iTunes.

just do a few to start with and see how they are. note the setting in the options allow different coding for the tags and also fo the (damn I forget and I need to re install it)...... for checking tags and getting art work I am using Media Monkey but I am sure there are better ways.

Of to down load EAC again and check the settings.

 

[Anonymous]

I just bougt a squeezebox touch and I am quite happy with it.

At girlfriend and neighbour friendly listening levels its performance is really acceptable.

A netbook could also be a feasible music server. They are cheap and powerful enough.

Regards.

 

[matthewpiano]

You should also consider buying a decent NAS from Synology for example. Besides the obvious storage capacity and redundancy it possible to run Squeezebox Server on the NAS. With this and a proper DAC you have a great streaming solution. Keep in mind that a Squeezebox provides way better usability than a DLNA/Upnp based streamer.

Rip tip: use EAC to rip to FLAC and 'Album Art Downloader' for the graphics. The result is excellent and works great for the Squeezebox. Make sure you create proper cue sheets because the Squeezebox is able to read them.

Sorry, what is a 'cue sheet'? Would be grateful if you could explain it a little more. I'm quite new to this side of things.

 

[Ajani]

I own both a Benchmark DAC1 and an Emotiva XDA-1.... I don't recommend the Emotiva... It has lots of features, but the sound is nothing special for the money... Also, I generally don't recommend Emotiva if you are a non-us customer (as I am)...

Ajani - your comments regarding the EMO XDA-1's SQ noted. Could you expand why you don't recommend EMO products outside the USA?

Regards

Shipping and return from/to the US is a pain (especially for EMO amps which are very very heavy).... However, as RS pointed out after my post; in the UK there's a local dealer, so you wouldn't have those issues... So you can always try one for yourself...

 

[spockfish]

Here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cue_sheet_(computing)

But basically it's a (txt) file which describes the layout of the CD. The idea is that you can then rip the CD to one single FLAC file and your music player uses the cue sheet for track details. This solves some difficult issues with track gaps on for example classical CD's. Downside is that not many music players do support cue sheets but the squeezebox does!

Anyway, a decent cue sheet is also necessary for just another thing: with a cue sheet and a set of FLAC (or WAV) files you can recreate an audio CD exactly (with the correct gaps and so on).

I've swithched completely to streaming (my CD63KI eating dust), but it gives me a 'safe' feeling I can recreate basically any audio CD from my FLAC collection.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, what is a 'cue sheet'? Would be grateful if you could explain it a little more. I'm quite new to this side of things.

A cue sheet is basically just a text file describing the cd TOC (table of contents). It contains length and position information for all the tracks, but more importantly it also defines the exact length of the silence between tracks (pregap).

You might use the cue sheet for some purposes:

- if you want to rebuild the original CD from your ripped files. The files contain the audio data, but without the cue sheet you will not know at exactly which position they were on the disc. This won't matter if you take proper care of your originals, and disc authoring programs allow you to select the most common pregap lengths anyway (2s pregap or gapless)

- FLAC has support for embedded cue-sheets. Theoretically, this means that you can rip the entire CD as a single file, and still select individual tracks by using the cue sheet information. Practically, very few players have proper support for embedded cuesheets and the tagging is virtually impossible

I used to keep cue sheets with all my album rips initially, but I have never needed them. A few months ago I removed all lingering cuesheets, haven't missed them yet. If you're curious, let EAC generate a CUE file for you (it's somewhere in the menus), and open it in a text editor.

 

[El Hefe]

Hi matthew,

When I first read your posting, I thought you were only looking at a DAC to compliment your CDP and SB3. But the discussion grew into a whole change of PC-based set up.

I was in the same boat as you, trying to figure out what would be the best way (convenient wise plus high level SQ) to store music and listen to them.

My quest went from Apple Airport Express to QED uPlay to Brik BT Stage. The most convenient for me was in fact the Brik BT Stage, streaming music directly from my iPhone or ipad. SQ however is not the greatest.

Airport Express was definitely giving more SQ pleasure but my wifi connection is not the greatest, hence signal drop outs occurred constantly. Also, I have to have my Mac/PC on all the time to access the music via iTunes.

Then of course I started to have FLAC files that iTunes and iPhone cannot read.

I had a look at SB3 option but unfortunately, Logitech does not sell them officially in Malaysia, hence no warranty nor support if I purchase from outside Malaysia.

Thats when I started thinking. All I wanted is:

1. Storage where I can access my music files without turning on the Mac/PC. ( I bought a WD 1 TB NAS wired into my wifi router)

2. Streamer with no signal dropouts and can handle various types of music files

3. A DAC to ensure the best SQ going out into my system.

And thankfully to Anthony Michaelson, the CLiC is currently providing me with all these.

So, if you are planning to change your PC-based set up, I would recommend the simple set up above - 1 of NAS, 1 of CLiC and just use your laptop to rip music.

 

[matthewpiano]

Hi El Hefe

Ha ha!! Yes, my thoughts have changed somewhat in the course of this thread. I've been reading some of the thoughts of others, and this month's WHFS&V mag and it got me questioning what it is I've got against the idea of going hard drive/streaming based. Experimenting with some ripping and listening through my Squeezebox (which is actually a 'Classic') has shown me that it can sound every bit as good as CD, and I'm actually enjoying the easy access to my music. I've made noises in the past about wanting the physical media but I'll still be buying CDs, but ripping them instead of playing them in a CD player, and I rarely look at the liner notes after the first listening anyway. I think I'm ready!

The M1 CLiC looks great but it is quite expensive for me, and I'm wondering how much extra it would offer me over a Squeezebox Touch and something like the M1 DAC or the DAC RS recommended. I like the Squeezebox set-up and I could do things more gradually - add a DAC to my existing Squeezebox first and then upgrade to the Touch or vice versa. I'll definitely move from my existing USB HDD to a NAS one. I reckon I could do all of this for substantially less than the price of the CLiC.

 

[nads]

I like the Squeezebox set-up and I could do things more gradually - add a DAC to my existing Squeezebox first and then upgrade to the Touch or vice versa. I'll definitely move from my existing USB HDD to a NAS one. I reckon I could do all of this for substantially less than the price of the CLiC.

SB3 and Dac Magic is as good a sound as the Touch on its own. So if you are going to go for a DAC it has to be better than a Dac Magic which would negate the change to the touch for sound. the Touch costs the same/less than a Dac Magic.

the way I would go if doing it again. is Touch and NAS at the same time or NAS first, yep NAS first. I use Netgear Duo which can be a bit slow running SBS on it. there are others that, I hear run it faster, but I have been very happy with it that I bought a 4 bay Netgear NV+ which is giving me about 5,5Tb of raided space.

Have fun.

 

[matthewpiano]

To be honest nads the desire to upgrade to the Touch is more about the better display and the ability to show album covers. If it gives me an upgrade in sound before adding an external DAC, even better. It does make sense to sort out the NAS and Touch first, as you say.

When you say your NAS is a bit slow running SBS, how does it affect day to day usage? Is it slow to start streaming albums?

Thanks!

 

[El Hefe]

Hi El Hefe

Ha ha!! Yes, my thoughts have changed somewhat in the course of this thread. I've been reading some of the thoughts of others, and this month's WHFS&V mag and it got me questioning what it is I've got against the idea of going hard drive/streaming based. Experimenting with some ripping and listening through my Squeezebox (which is actually a 'Classic') has shown me that it can sound every bit as good as CD, and I'm actually enjoying the easy access to my music. I've made noises in the past about wanting the physical media but I'll still be buying CDs, but ripping them instead of playing them in a CD player, and I rarely look at the liner notes after the first listening anyway. I think I'm ready!

The M1 CLiC looks great but it is quite expensive for me, and I'm wondering how much extra it would offer me over a Squeezebox Touch and something like the M1 DAC or the DAC RS recommended. I like the Squeezebox set-up and I could do things more gradually - add a DAC to my existing Squeezebox first and then upgrade to the Touch or vice versa. I'll definitely move from my existing USB HDD to a NAS one. I reckon I could do all of this for substantially less than the price of the CLiC.

Hi again,

I do believe that if you are satisfied with the SB3, then stick to it for the moment. Invest in a good DAC to get the optimum SQ from the SB3 (as long as your ripped music are all of hi res). I am not sure of the digital output limitation on the SB3, but nevertheless, a DAC like M1 or even DACMagic will upsample it to 192 kHz. You should be able to hear some difference.

Later on when more dough comes in either via Ladbrokes (joking!!!) or hard earned month end salary, then start investing on NAS.

 

[dannycanham]

I couldn't recommend any particular dac atm as there are so many crawling out of the woodwork it's overwhelming. There are alot of good DACs.

On the mac mini side I think they are excellent. Not silent...but quieter than the fans in my humax foxsat, the fan transport and lazer mechanism in my sony blu ray player, quieter than my samsung netbook, the spinning of my 7200 rpm external hard drive and the electricity in my lightbulbs. Wow that thing is quiet for a fan based peice of kit. The newer model has a small fan inside the machine that sucks air around the big rubber base. So no outside fan. A large one piece metal surround everywhere else.

I thought I'd managed quiet with my pc after replacing all the fans with 200rpm fans and installing fanless 5770 graphics cards and an SSD as hard disks are way too noisy, oh and putting acoustic dampening material inside. But you can hear the electrical noise from the motherboard as it is a powerful beast. The mac mini is low power.