Monitor Audio Silver 100 (old model)

[insider9]

eBay buyer protection means if you're experiencing issues the buyer will have no choice than to accept a return. They will even have to pay for return postage if the unit is faulty. It may take a while though and some hassle if you come across someone awkward.

I usually buy without warranty as most gear that interests me is from the last century. This particular unit comes with remainder of manufacturer's warranty. I'd check if Arcam transfers their warranty first though.

 

[CnoEvil]

the Cyrus one isn't a clinical amp, but clinical is just another word for detail and that's a good thing particularly with a budget speaker to try and max it out on that as much as possible, where it won't reach same heights on detail as say the pmc already mentioned. But where it scores is in the class d etc.

but Amps like musical fidelity can be just as detailed. Arcam is more of a smooth bassy sound. For your needs and considering your tastes and the issue you mentioned with bass dynamics, I think that's why something like musical fidelity or Cyrus would suit your speaker and tastes. If you've got a speaker which may possibly be a bit lazy on bass, pair it with something that isn't massively bass rich, but is fast and very dynamic with the bass. That tends to be musical fidelity, Cyrus but not arcam or naim etc on the bass front. But anyway with that power the Cyrus one has and its sound its not particularly bass light anyway.

IMO. Your post is full of contradictions....I say that by way of an observation (and possibly having misunderstood what you were trying to say) and not meant to be confrontational.

I assume you think that Cyrus is detailed...so by your definition, it is clinical.

You have also said that Arcam and MF can be just as detailed...so by implication, they would also be clinical.

For me, clinical means very clean and detailed, but sterile and uninvolving....which is how Cyrus can sound, if matched with a speaker that has similar traits. I would match Cyrus with speakers that can sound on the warm/dark side, like Spendor, Kef R Series and Harbeth (which flesh out the sound a bit); while avoiding brands like Focal, Triangle and MA.

Detailed does not necessarily mean clinical....and my AMS35i is a great example of being very detailed, but still very euphonious.

IME. Current Arcams are livelier, with a more controlled bass than they used to.

A system's magic is in the mid range...but it also needs a treble that isn't too strident.

Everything I've said above is subjective...including how I think a system/component sounds, to what adjectives I use to describe it.....and I'm a big advocate of the importance of system synergy and would generally avoid combining components that have similar (strong) traits.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I don't think I contradicted myself. But if I did just to clarify.... What I'm saying is I know Cyrus is a detailed sound (as have been all the way through the range) and so is brands like musical fidelity. But Cyrus is also very dynamic and fast. But naim and arcam are warmer tonally than Cyrus. That's probably why people go with these types of brands, because a lot of tastes in hi fi are in a warm sounding set up that people get used to. My impression is that usually this is the type or sound of budget stuff as well (which I've owned in the past too, lots of it) mainly because the bass is wollier. But it can be wRmer high end stuff too. But the point is it's all about system matching. If you've got a speaker which isn't quite as tight on bass as you'd like it, and is tuned for a bassy sound, as indicated, the last thing you'd want to do is pair it with an amp which has a relatively tonally warmer sound, or isn't maybe as dynamic, as I'd doubt it would bring the best out of those monitor audios.

I'd agree a speaker can sound bad if not matched with correct amp, but I'd beg to differ if you think Cyrus is uninvolving per see as if you listen to the signature stuff it's very good indeed. So is an 8dac.

But it depends on the speaker too and I'd agree with you on matching Cyrus on the kef r series (if something like a 6dac or 8 dac) and possibly harbeth, but harbeth can be quite detailed and very natural already so I'd say it's not a great match. But kef r series not fantastic unto themselves. But with pmc's like mine Cyrus sig stuff works well as pmc's have loads of bass with the transmission line and Cyrus sound compliments them. On spendor some speakers can be a tad bright e.g. A6R with Cyrus, but not D7 which is a warmer spendor. But anyway back to the subject.

So if it's agreed the ma's need tightening up in bass, a bit more dynamic prowess, and they aren't going to be huge detail retrievers at the price so extra detail will help, whilst still being quite wArm speakers already (Somebody commented they have added bass in freq response ) my preference would not be the arcam a19 but a Cyrus one. Or a used Cyrus 8dac or something like a rega elex r

I heard these ma speakers in richer sounds or very similar with a Cyrus lyric and they were very good indeed, but the lyric is out of price. But the lyric and Cyrus one are more than a match, and I think the Cyrus one would be better with its amplification than the lyric all in one (less amp for your cash). The one is class d and has impedance matching and I can see that for the load of these speakers it will be more powerful than the arcam, so I'd expect it to handle the dynamics of music probably better. Being a Cyrus too. I had arcam alpha 7 amps and CD player and not nearly as good on dynamics as comparable current price cyrus stuff.

before making any used judgements I'd say to the op, if you want to go that way, take your speakers to a richer sounds and listen to arcam and Cyrus and others etc , then buy a used unit. It shouldn't matter you maybe aren't intending to buy because you are through their doors and you could buy new, depending on the price. If you don't then buy used.

Once you've got the house sound in mind, you can buy the amp brand to suit. But advice no substitute for listening.

Another one to try is the rega elex r being dynamic and rhythmical according to what hi fi, so I'd try that too. Also good power.

A systems majic isn't just in the mid range, it's all over. But I agree it's important. So the qualities of things like detail to make music real and layers in the music stand out, also detail for how much timbre music has, then dynamics (both bass and otherwise) to make the sound get to the note quickly and come down again, also volume shifts within the music track. You could also bring in timing or speed here or call it the same as dynamics. Then there is things like soundstage and stereo imaging. How big an image does the amp and speaker combo provide (soundstage), how does the amp handle shifts (imaging - a good test is money by pink Floyd when the coins and jangling till etc at the start move quickly from one speaker to the other). I'd add midrange prowess in and also another one is the realism of the bass and it's depth. All of these things can be amp dependent.

 

[CnoEvil]

A systems majic isn't just in the mid range, it's all over. But I agree it's important. So the qualities of things like detail to make music real and layers in the music stand out, also detail for how much timbre music has, then dynamics (both bass and otherwise) to make the sound get to the note quickly and come down again, also volume shifts within the music track. You could also bring in timing or speed here or call it the same as dynamics. Then there is things like soundstage and stereo imaging. How big an image does the amp and speaker combo provide (soundstage), how does the amp handle shifts (imaging - a good test is money by pink Floyd when the coins and jangling till etc at the start move quickly from one speaker to the other). I'd add midrange prowess in and also another one is the realism of the bass and it's depth. All of these things can be amp dependent.

To quote J. Gorden Holt - "If the midrange isn't right, nothing else matters."

The human ear is tuned to be most sensitive to the midrange....and this is:

- Where most of the musical energy is.

- Where the lower harmonics of most instruments lie

- Where the texture of most instruments lie.

- The worst place for speaker imperfections.

If the midrange is right, voices sound correct and music sounds natural and involving.

I think that "image" is more to do with the recording itself, combined with the positioning of the speakers and seating position.

The areas you mention all make up a good system, but as J. Gorden Holt says, if the midrange is wrong, the system won't sound right.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I'd agree with you it's bloody important. But my current speakers have improved midrange to my old ones, but my old speakers couldn't be described as being 'not right'. They were still bloody good as they had essential ingredients like dynamics, soundstage, imaging etc. It's all relative on midrange therefore, but the whole package that goes into making a good speaker.

Your analogy is a bit like trying to single out one thing and it's not possible. It would be like saying an f1 car needs wide sticky tyres to go round corners fast for its performance and without that nothing else matters. But ignoring that if you put a Ford Fiesta engine in it, a bigger better performance focus with a better performance engine to the fiesta, would beat the f1 car with Fiesta engine.

This thing about musical energy, what if you listen to the prodigy etc

the image isn't to do just with position, it's the quality of amplification. I could swap my cyrus mono x200s for x powers and the soundstage will shrink. I know because I've had them

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

This Cyrus one sold for £420 a few days ago.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/292220558873

 

[CnoEvil]

I think you can certainly single out the midrange as the single most imprtant factor....as the J Gorden Holt (Stereophile magazine founder and the father of observational audio equipment evaluation) quote shows....so I'm in good company.

I didn't make an analogy, though if I was to make one, it would be like having a 4 cycinder car running on 3.

The reason you can single out the mid range, is it's the area in which your ear is most sensitive (800Hz and 3kHz)....which is why mid range coloration jumps out so prominently.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I'd apply this thinking to the two recent speakers I have had. In my previous pmc's the mid range was good but slightly hidden and it seemed masked by lower frequencies. In my current pmc's the midrange is more projected and in your face. The speaker has obviously been tweaked for this.

The previous speaker still did everything the current one does but not quite as well, but would I say it's not as good because I can't hear the mid range frequencies as well, on the issue of the mid range alone. The answer would be no. If the new speaker didn't have the low bass depth and better dynamics (it has over the old one) then maybe my answer would be yes.

So this idea it's the most important can't really ring true. It's always about a package and you can't just pidgeon hole thinking just because it may on the face of it be a good adage and suit a point around main frequencies our ears hear. There is so much to music other than what we hear in mid range, like rhythm and drive and dynamics. So much of what makes a drum beat sound real on a good stereo is how it gets to the crescendo quickly and come off the note quickly in a stop startey way. If you have a speaker and amp that can reveal lots of midrange detail but it doesn't go fast on and off a beat (e.g. Michael Jackson billie Jean) and isn't dynamic it's lost a huge amount of what makes music real. That's before we even get onto stuff like imaging and soundstage and bass depth and realism. How music comes from space around cabinets for example. How can music be great and the bass guitar be real or low cello sound right, if an amp and speakers doesn't do that best possible too.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm not sure we are going to agree.

The reason that good Valve Amps are so realistic and musical, is down to the midrange....even though they often sacrifice the ultimate Bass control of a SS amp.

I'm not saying that the characteristics you list aren't important...but if the system doesn't have accurate midrange, it won't sound natural, no matter how good/quick the bass, or how realistic the imaging/soundstaging.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think I agree with a lot of what you say but I'd just add that it's all a game of relatives in hi fi. There is so much variation on what one does better and another has no such characteristic in the sound at all. But I agree on the principle of the midrange isn't there it reduces the appeal quite a bit. But an over simplification to say it's the most important consideration in sound quality. It's why there are big speakers and small speakers all suiting different needs on soundstage etc.

 

[CnoEvil]

Here is a quote from an article entitled, "The Art of Speaker Design"...

"Where modern systems fall down is midrange performance, which doesn’t lend itself to the computer design tools that are so convenient in the bass and treble range. The sparkle and dynamism of the best classic speakers is in the midrange, the most important, and yet the most challenging, part of the entire spectrum. Progress in the midrange region has been slow for many reasons. The ear reaches its peak sensitivity this region, drivers are operating at the edge of their frequency range, and the designer has to contend with spectral flatness, polar response, IM distortion, impulse response, cabinet energy storage, diffraction, and crossover polar characteristics all at once."

 

[daveyjay]

I understand why a number of you are advising me to seek out a used amp, but, lacking a bit of confidence when it comes to this sort of thing, I'm more inclined to go for new. The Cambridge Audio CXA60 has £80 off online, at the moment. I like the fact that it has a good array of connections (optical in being important for me). Online reviews appear pretty excellent across the board. Does anyone have comments/advice re this amp and pairing it with the MAs? Not enough of an upgrade, perhaps...?

 

[CnoEvil]

I understand why a number of you are advising me to seek out a used amp, but, lacking a bit of confidence when it comes to this sort of thing, I'm more inclined to go for new. The Cambridge Audio CXA60 has £80 off online, at the moment. I like the fact that it has a good array of connections (optical in being important for me). Online reviews appear pretty excellent across the board. Does anyone have comments/advice re this amp and pairing it with the MAs? Not enough of an upgrade, perhaps...?

I can only speak for my taste, but CA + MA would be much too forward and would give me a headache. You might be different though...

First rule of HiFi...don't buy something unheard, just because its on offer.

 

[insider9]

I understand why a number of you are advising me to seek out a used amp, but, lacking a bit of confidence when it comes to this sort of thing, I'm more inclined to go for new. The Cambridge Audio CXA60 has £80 off online, at the moment. I like the fact that it has a good array of connections (optical in being important for me). Online reviews appear pretty excellent across the board. Does anyone have comments/advice re this amp and pairing it with the MAs? Not enough of an upgrade, perhaps...?

I can only speak for my taste, but CA + MA would be much too forward and would give me a headache. You might be different though...

First rule of HiFi...don't buy something unheard, just because its on offer.

+1

I'd avoid Cambridge Audio, budget Marantz. And if you're unable to listen with your speakers and/or in your room and you're not 100% sure how to achieve the sound you want it's best to minimise the risk.

OP, I appreciate you may feel spending £400 on a second hand amp is crazy. I used to think that too not so long ago.

Why not get a cheaper amp circa £100 second hand and see if you're comfortable and see enough improvement?

Try a NAD C320BEE or a C350 if you want more detail. If you decide you're not happy you'll sell at a minimum loss or if you're you're lucky might make a small profit. Depreciation on these units is almost non existent when looking at shortens space of time. In fact some units gone up in price in the last year.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

No I'd say Cambridge audio would be good with your speakers as it would give the injection of detail you need and quite dynamic amps too. I'd try and go for the cxa-80 if you really like its sound and with a discount for say a dealer ex demo I reckon it would be possible to get nearer £500. But the same for the Cyrus one which I think will be better.

another option in buying used is to take out cheap insurance to cover any repairs or check the warranty is transferable. You can also do things like get the manufacturer to check from the serial number what age the unit is. I've done this with Cyrus before. Also some manufacturers have standard service pricing. So Cyrus charge £250 I think for a service in case something does go wrong. They put the whole thing back as it should sound for the same price, no matter the components needed. Helps if the unit does go wrong and they don't charge more or the same price as new, which is often the case with manufacturers who don't have low standard service pricing, forcing the customer to buy new again. But this is all a worry I wouldn't concern yourself with as most hi fi is so reliable nowadays. So long as it's young in age it should last very well. Do things like make sure you get the sales receipt from the seller with date if a used amp, so you know its age, and don't buy if you have no idea of age and thus possible use. If it's young, isn't scratched up indicating it's been looked after, you hear it working - chances are you can get a very good deal. It is possible to get it sounding just right if you put the effort in.

I wouldn't do that nad thing. It's splitting hairs probably for you as to whether it's better than current modern Amps and considering you have a budget in mind, and I doubt it is better and even if it is, it's probably old and needs a tune and if old, could go wrong. Also why bother to take the chance to send it back if no good. Could be a right Polava. You just want an amp it sounds that is good, and have done with it.

But id definetely mirror the comments about listening first. What's the richer sounds nearest to you? I'd go in an have a listen to that ca, a Cyrus one and some other amps. Pick some warmer amps too and then make a comparison, richer sounds should help with that.

 

[daveyjay]

It's the connectivity of the used amps that also concerns me. I'm after something with at least one optical in.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

How come - Cd transport ? DVD player etc?

 

[daveyjay]

I use the Marantz for movie sound - optical out on Sony TV - (stereo, of course) as well as music and am looking to use any new amp in the same way. I always thought optical is the best connection to use, if available. Am I wrong in thinking this?

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

if you went for one of the decent amps mentioned, even if they have no digital inputs, I'm very sure they would be, being more a pure amplifier and nothing else and a higher price to your marantz, producing better sound via analogue connections. Depends if your tv has analogue outs too? I really wouldn't worry as it will be just as good if you can connect up by analogue. But for future proofing it could be a consideration, but for me I'd go for out and out sound quality.

are you keeping the marantz or is the trade in factored into what you can spend etc? Potentially you could use out from the marantz into a pure analogue amp, assuming you keep the marantz and it has those connections. Cheers.

 

[daveyjay]

Food for thought, Quest. Thank you.

 

[grimharry]

Also depends which has the better dac marantz amp or Sony tv

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

My point was not on it's own it isn't. A dac is only so important as it's amplification and the speakers, and in my experience even if the tv has a cheap dac, the benefits from much better amplification will outweigh the advantage to send an optical out to a hi fi dac.

 

[grimharry]

I always thought improved quality of amp and speakers tend to highlight a poor quality source

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I'd agree but if you had say £500 speakers, £500 amp, and a £500 CD player, I'd much rather spend £200 on a decent CD player and put the £300 towards speakers for sq improvements. You'd go from say £500 monitor audios to £800 kef ls50, a big jump up. Amps and speakers do more pound for pound to improve sound quality.

 

[grimharry]

That not what I replied