Mogami interconnects.

[Al ears]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

I'm afraid then, like many, you came to the wrong forum.... ;-)

First rule of Cable Threads - It's not about what you Want, but it's about what you Need. Second rule of Cable Threads...*unknw*

Quite so. Best not to mention just go buy. ;-)

 

[davedotco]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

There are plenty of different views out there but it is probably a good idea for you to hear all sides of the argument.

I understand entirely if you adopt the view that it is your system, your ears etc but at least understand that subjective assessments of the kind you are trying to evaluate are far from consistent or reliable.

If you here a system or a component that works for you, then it is good practice to buy it if you can, people, particularly enthusiasts, do interact with systems in different ways, which is why auditioning is so important but you need to realise that another persons reaction might be different to you own.

Some people, myself included, feel that by reading too many fora and reviews, it is easy to fall into the dominant 'groupthink' and end up with product that is 'approved' by the group rather than a setup that actually gives you what you want.

 

[andyjm]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

Please accept my apologies, I thought you were looking to improve the sound of your system.

As I pointed out above, starquad cables are designed to be used with balanced equipment, not as single ended interconnects. Differential systems rely on having noise induced in both conductors in a cable equally, which is then cancelled out by the input equipment. The usual way to ensure that noise is induced equally is to twist the two conductors together - hence 'twisted pair', however depending on the pitch of the twist and how close the interference source is to the cable, it is still possible for one conductor to receive more interference than the other. A 'starquad' configuration has four conductors paralleled to form two separate links, this greatly reduces the chance that inteference gets induced into one conductor only.

Given the OP is buying a cable with RCA connectors, it is single ended. I this case, starquad configuration is meaningless, the cable has three conductors too many.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

I'm afraid then, like many, you came to the wrong forum.... ;-)

To be fair some people might be thinking the same thing of your post. All he asked was opinions. He didn’t want people including Daved Otco to subvert it into a thread which this is not.

basically he asked for opinion and you’ve either knowledge of the cable or not, not to take the thread in a different direction. It’s pretty clear that his post consents to the idea cables can give differences, by virtue of asking the question of a different cable.

isnt Common practise on forums to keep the thread on the topic and address the question?, but it seems often on this forum it goes wildly off the topic for the sake of regular chit chat. It shouldn’t really be about people taking it off topic otherwise it gets way to difficult to follow with everyone having their six pennies worth.

 

[Al ears]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

Please accept my apologies, I thought you were looking to improve the sound of your system.

As I pointed out above, starquad cables are designed to be used with balanced equipment, not as single ended interconnects. Differential systems rely on having noise induced in both conductors in a cable equally, which is then cancelled out by the input equipment. The usual way to ensure that noise is induced equally is to twist the two conductors together - hence 'twisted pair', however depending on the pitch of the twist and how close the interference source is to the cable, it is still possible for one conductor to receive more interference than the other. A 'starquad' configuration has four conductors paralleled to form two separate links, this greatly reduces the chance that inteference gets induced into one conductor only.

Given the OP is buying a cable with RCA connectors, it is single ended. I this case, starquad configuration is meaningless, the cable has three conductors too many.

Perhaps that helps the cable 'burn in'.

I thought Russell was the OP....

Oh, I see you were referring to whoever mentioned the starquad cable.....

 

[Gazzip]

So, at the risk of bringing more facts to table rather than discussing how I 'feel' about it, starquad cable only makes sense in a balanced configuration.

For unbalanced interconnects starquad will either be the same, or possibly worse than a simple coaxial screened cable.

Good job I use mine in a fully balanced system then. I buy mine ready terminated.

 

[abacus]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

I'm afraid then, like many, you came to the wrong forum.... ;-)

To be fair some people might be thinking the same thing of your post. All he asked was opinions. He didn’t want people including Daved Otco to subvert it into a thread which this is not.

basically he asked for opinion and you’ve either knowledge of the cable or not, not to take the thread in a different direction. It’s pretty clear that his post consents to the idea cables can give differences, by virtue of asking the question of a different cable.

isnt Common practise on forums to keep the thread on the topic and address the question?, but it seems often on this forum it goes wildly off the topic for the sake of regular chit chat. It shouldn’t really be about people taking it off topic otherwise it gets way to difficult to follow with everyone having their six pennies worth.

You obviously haven’t been on many forums over the years, (And I don’t mean just Hi-Fi) as there are very few where the threads don’t drift off the original topic. (Just like when you talk to friends or down the pub, when you start off on one subject and finish on something completely different.

Bill

 

[Gazzip]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

I'm afraid then, like many, you came to the wrong forum.... ;-)

To be fair some people might be thinking the same thing of your post. All he asked was opinions. He didn’t want people including Daved Otco to subvert it into a thread which this is not.

basically he asked for opinion and you’ve either knowledge of the cable or not, not to take the thread in a different direction. It’s pretty clear that his post consents to the idea cables can give differences, by virtue of asking the question of a different cable.

isnt Common practise on forums to keep the thread on the topic and address the question?, but it seems often on this forum it goes wildly off the topic for the sake of regular chit chat. It shouldn’t really be about people taking it off topic otherwise it gets way to difficult to follow with everyone having their six pennies worth.

You obviously haven’t been on many forums over the years, (And I don’t mean just Hi-Fi) as there are very few where the threads don’t drift off the original topic. (Just like when you talk to friends or down the pub, when you start off on one subject and finish on something completely different.

Bill

...or in the car park picking up your teeth.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

I'm afraid then, like many, you came to the wrong forum.... ;-)

To be fair some people might be thinking the same thing of your post. All he asked was opinions. He didn’t want people including Daved Otco to subvert it into a thread which this is not.

basically he asked for opinion and you’ve either knowledge of the cable or not, not to take the thread in a different direction. It’s pretty clear that his post consents to the idea cables can give differences, by virtue of asking the question of a different cable.

isnt Common practise on forums to keep the thread on the topic and address the question?, but it seems often on this forum it goes wildly off the topic for the sake of regular chit chat. It shouldn’t really be about people taking it off topic otherwise it gets way to difficult to follow with everyone having their six pennies worth.

You obviously haven’t been on many forums over the years, (And I don’t mean just Hi-Fi) as there are very few where the threads don’t drift off the original topic. (Just like when you talk to friends or down the pub, when you start off on one subject and finish on something completely different.

Bill

the point is a forum thread is not a discussion down the pub which goes off in different directions but one which succinctly deals with the question, and the rules of many forums are to keep it on thread, unlike for the sake of derailing it again. The point is they would like a question answered, you answer it as do others. If you start going off in different directions people loose interest, people don’t contribute, and the op tunes out.

 

[Gazzip]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

I'm afraid then, like many, you came to the wrong forum.... ;-)

To be fair some people might be thinking the same thing of your post. All he asked was opinions. He didn’t want people including Daved Otco to subvert it into a thread which this is not.

basically he asked for opinion and you’ve either knowledge of the cable or not, not to take the thread in a different direction. It’s pretty clear that his post consents to the idea cables can give differences, by virtue of asking the question of a different cable.

isnt Common practise on forums to keep the thread on the topic and address the question?, but it seems often on this forum it goes wildly off the topic for the sake of regular chit chat. It shouldn’t really be about people taking it off topic otherwise it gets way to difficult to follow with everyone having their six pennies worth.

You obviously haven’t been on many forums over the years, (And I don’t mean just Hi-Fi) as there are very few where the threads don’t drift off the original topic. (Just like when you talk to friends or down the pub, when you start off on one subject and finish on something completely different.

Bill

the point is a forum thread is not a discussion down the pub which goes off in different directions but one which succinctly deals with the question, and the rules of many forums are to keep it on thread, unlike for the sake of derailing it again. The point is they would like a question answered, you answer it as do others. If you start going off in different directions people loose interest, people don’t contribute, and the op tunes out.

I agree with you’re sentiments, but ATEOTD it’s a free world and peeps should be allowed to say whatever they want on a forum.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

It’s not an issue about not being able to say what you want, for there is always the opportunity in the right place, but not going off on a tangent in a thread as how the hell can anyone else follow, if 5 people go in 5 directions.

 

[CnoEvil]

It’s not an issue about not being able to say what you want, for there is always the opportunity in the right place, but not going off on a tangent in a thread as how the hell can anyone else follow, if 5 people go in 5 directions.

Half the Forum are Gullible Audiophools, who don't understand placebo, so hear stuff that isn't there; and half the forum know better, but are deaf (so can't hear the stuff that isn't there) - Cable threads are their chance to argue.

What's not to like! *dirol*

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

The ones who go on about audiophools that don’t understand placebo, implying they know of others experiences are the worst ones. Goes into arrogance sometimes, for me. I believe people who come from a position of experience, that people’s experiences are different and that under different circumstances and experiences there is always scope for coming to different conclusions. More balanced. Alas fickle nature of hi Fi.

 

[Gazzip]

The ones who go on about audiophools that don’t understand placebo, implying they know of others experiences are the worst ones. Goes into arrogance sometimes, for me. I believe people who come from a position of experience, that people’s experiences are different and that under different circumstances and experiences there is always scope for coming to different conclusions. More balanced. Alas fickle nature of hi Fi.

As someone who has a good deal of equipment and listening experience I completely agree with you. However, there is a great deal to be learned from some of the members who take a more scientific standpoint on this forum. You say tangent I say balance.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I tend to think the more you use science the more you go away from what your gut and ears tells you and the ability to predict in hi Fi is nigh on impossible sometimes, into this mix. So it’s just a big academic exercise nobody can solve, not least mainly amateur hi Fi people.

if you are more inclined to believe only what you can measure it’s almost an unwitting conduit for discounting your own observations sometimes. That’s a danger.

 

[nopiano]

I tend to think the more you use science the more you go away from what your gut and ears tells you and the ability to predict in hi Fi is nigh on impossible sometimes, into this mix. So it’s just a big academic exercise nobody can solve, not least mainly amateur hi Fi people.

if you are more inclined to believe only what you can measure it’s almost an unwitting conduit for discounting your own observations sometimes. That’s a danger.

I think the equal, or probably greater danger is being persuaded that you hear a difference that doesn't exist. Those with a deeper grasp of this than I will probably say the science of placebo, misdirection and other artefacts, along with the brain's poor audio memory means we're somewhat exposed when it comes to making rational judgements on matter of things audio and hifi.

I find most satisfaction from equipment and accessories that display competence in technical matters as well as sounding reminiscent of live music to my ears.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

That’s the arrogant argument as it comes from the perspective of an unknown of another’s experience but a belief someone else knows my experience, which they don’t. Different speakers with different amps, with differing quality, with different sources of different quality, with a different acoustic environment with differences in age, hearing quite possibly. My 12 year old niece probably hears more than me.

But I’m surprised if you are on the cable dissenter side and if I’ve got it right you are thinking cables make no difference to sq, with your atc scm40’s. if you are running £2k amps on £4K speakers I’d say that probably why you might not get big discernible differences with cables, if that’s your view, as you would do with say £7k plus quality of amplification.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

Took.him for a walk and he ran away because I never burnt him in for 3 days first.

 

[Gray]

Thankyou. Yes, opinions from other owners of Mogami ICs was all I required, not self-righteous rants.

As I pointed out above, starquad cables are designed to be used with balanced equipment, not as single ended interconnects. Differential systems rely on having noise induced in both conductors in a cable equally, which is then cancelled out by the input equipment. The usual way to ensure that noise is induced equally is to twist the two conductors together - hence 'twisted pair'

Indeed, it's the (balanced) equipment, not the twisting that does the noise removal.

What about the theory (rightly or wrongly) that the inductive effects of twisting (counter-flowing conductors) has benefit with regard to RF noise cancellation? (Certainly suggested with some fancy weaves) Or is the induction negligible / non-existent?

 

[russell salter]

A HOLES

 

[nopiano]

That’s the arrogant argument as it comes from the perspective of an unknown of another’s experience but a belief someone else knows my experience, which they don’t. Different speakers with different amps, with differing quality, with different sources of different quality, with a different acoustic environment with differences in age, hearing quite possibly. My 12 year old niece probably hears more than me.

But I’m surprised if you are on the cable dissenter side and if I’ve got it right you are thinking cables make no difference to sq, with your atc scm40’s. if you are running £2k amps on £4K speakers I’d say that probably why you might not get big discernible differences with cables, if that’s your view, as you would do with say £7k plus quality of amplification.

I have used audio quality cables ever since QED came up with their 79 strand, so I'm certainly not what I'd call a dissenter, but I'm more sceptical than I once was. To get what you call a 'big discernable difference" I would be concerned something was amiss with any cable, whose purpose after all to to neither add nor subtract anything. Slight improvements in detail or control is more feasible to my way of thinking.

I know you tend to believe only the most expensive amplifiers can reveal such differences, so you might be surprised to know I used to demonstrate cables and support platforms with the budget NAD3020 amp. I think it cost about £79 at the time.

Ultimately, it's what individuals discern that matters, though increasingly I believe our senses are easily fooled.

 

[davedotco]

I see that the english language is being changed as we speak. It appears that anyone can have an opinion as long as it agrees with or is part of the groupthink.

Express a view that is outside of this and you are "arrogant" or perhaps worse.

 

[CnoEvil]

Express a view that is outside of this and you are "arrogant" or perhaps worse.

As I see it, it's not what is expressed that is arrogant - but how it's expressed.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

There are no group thinks but individual opinions making up collectives, both for an against. But nobody should tell you that you definitely can’t hear any change.

It’s a bit like buying a sports car and your neighbour buying a car of a similar sports car type but different make, and the neighbour telling you that your car doesn’t corner as well with no real explainable reason, or reasons hard to predict, and with the neighbour not ever having driven your car.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

That’s the arrogant argument as it comes from the perspective of an unknown of another’s experience but a belief someone else knows my experience, which they don’t. Different speakers with different amps, with differing quality, with different sources of different quality, with a different acoustic environment with differences in age, hearing quite possibly. My 12 year old niece probably hears more than me.

But I’m surprised if you are on the cable dissenter side and if I’ve got it right you are thinking cables make no difference to sq, with your atc scm40’s. if you are running £2k amps on £4K speakers I’d say that probably why you might not get big discernible differences with cables, if that’s your view, as you would do with say £7k plus quality of amplification.

I have used audio quality cables ever since QED came up with their 79 strand, so I'm certainly not what I'd call a dissenter, but I'm more sceptical than I once was. To get what you call a 'big discernable difference" I would be concerned something was amiss with any cable, whose purpose after all to to neither add nor subtract anything. Slight improvements in detail or control is more feasible to my way of thinking.

I know you tend to believe only the most expensive amplifiers can reveal such differences, so you might be surprised to know I used to demonstrate cables and support platforms with the budget NAD3020 amp. I think it cost about £79 at the time.

Ultimately, it's what individuals discern that matters, though increasingly I believe our senses are easily fooled.

id probably say your way of thinking fits into mine on cables that they are often slight, with a preface that there are ones that have stood out more than slight - from badly performing to the best performing cables. I don’t believe that only the most expensive amps can reveal differences in cables- that it’s possible to hear such differences with budget amps too, but it tends to be that as the quality of amps goes up and they become more musical and revealing, which is not always related to price but is generally so, the greater the marked differences in cables in that system.

That accounts why people who own budget gear are more likely to say cables make no differences whatsoever, compared to someone who has say top naim or Bryston kit with pmcs or atcs etc. It relates to experience. This is surely all just common sense. It’s a bit like using slight differences in fuel in a Ford Fiesta will make no difference but on a f1 car, could give marked changes in performance.