MARANTZ MCR610 power output

[sivakrdy]

It seems a good unit but i am highly suspicious of the power output.

It is rated as max 60W with 10% THD and max 50W with 0.7%.

I am looking to purchase a pair of DALI IKON2MK2 speakers. Will the mcr610 power them well? When i say power them well, i mean to really drive them hard.

The unit is good on paper except on the power values.

 

[matthewpiano]

The MCR-610 is a fantastic little unit with very good sound quality at low to medium levels, but it isn't designed or built to drive anything really hard. If you want ear-cracking levels you need to look elsewhere.

 

[MajorFubar]

The Dalis aren't hugely sensitive but I'd be surprised if the 610 was found lacking unless you're trying to fill the Royal Albert Hall. The amount of bunkum spouted about power output (in general, I don't especially mean here) is amazing. Even a five Watt RMS amp is capable of going uncomfortably loud powering 90dB+ speakers in an average room. The Dalis have a sensitivity of 86dB which means when fed with just 1 Watt of clean power, if you stand a meter from them they'll be about as as loud as standing five meters from a pneumatic drill. But no, the 610 isn't ever going to fool you that you're in a nightclub.

 

[manicm]

The Dalis aren't hugely sensitive but I'd be surprised if the 610 was found lacking unless you're trying to fill the Royal Albert Hall. The amount of bunkum spouted about power output (in general, I don't especially mean here) is amazing. Even a five Watt RMS amp is capable of going uncomfortably loud powering 90dB+ speakers in an average room. The Dalis have a sensitivity of 86dB which means when fed with just 1 Watt of clean power, if you stand a meter from them they'll be about as as loud as standing five meters from a pneumatic drill. But no, the 610 isn't ever going to fool you that you're in a nightclub.

The 610 probably has a real-world rating of about 40w/ch at 8ohms, at realistic distortion levels. I've noticed Marantz are a bit over-optimistic in their paper specs.

 

[davedotco]

The Dalis aren't hugely sensitive but I'd be surprised if the 610 was found lacking unless you're trying to fill the Royal Albert Hall. The amount of bunkum spouted about power output (in general, I don't especially mean here) is amazing. Even a five Watt RMS amp is capable of going uncomfortably loud powering 90dB+ speakers in an average room. The Dalis have a sensitivity of 86dB which means when fed with just 1 Watt of clean power, if you stand a meter from them they'll be about as as loud as standing five meters from a pneumatic drill. But no, the 610 isn't ever going to fool you that you're in a nightclub.

The 610 probably has a real-world rating of about 40w/ch at 8ohms, at realistic distortion levels.

You need to remember that the 610 power supply is rated at 55 watts, even allowing for its excellent efficiancy, you are realistically looking at about 20 watts per channel of sustainable long term power.

Fortunately the ebb and flow of most music will not need anything like that power, so the 610 copes very well in most situations.

However, play heavily compressed, bass heavy music at fairly loud levels into speakers of the sensitivity and complexity of the Ikons and you will soon run out of power.

 

[Cypher]

I would forget the MCR610 and buy the CD5005/PM5005 combo instead. You may not get all the functions but you'll get much better sound. The MCR610 (in my opinion) sounds weak and not convincing at all.

 

[pinballwizard]

I would forget the MCR610 and buy the CD5005/PM5005 combo instead. You may not get all the functions but you'll get much better sound. The MCR610 (in my opinion) sounds weak and not convincing at all.

Of course, you're right but it all boils down to what you're comparing it to. The combo you suggested is bound to sound just as "weak and not convincing" compared to more pricey gear. You seem to forget that many people are not into hi-end at all and just want a reasonably priced good-sounding unit to play music on - something that is easy to use and has more functionality than a standard "CD player/integrated amp" combo. M-CR610 is exactly just that (well, mostly, but that's what upgrades are for, right?) and is seemingly pretty good at what it does.

 

[davedotco]

Another option would be to stick with the 610 and choose a more sensitive speaker than the ikon 2.

Just an example but the Q Acoustics 2050i is an alternative price wise and about 6db more sensitive, the equivilent of using an amplifier that is 4 times as powerful!

Ie if you say the 610 delivers around 40wpc, then with the 2050i it will seem like 160 wpc. There are other examples that are 3db more sensitive or better, depends what is available in your market.

 

[pinballwizard]

Another option would be to stick with the 610 and choose a more sensitive speaker than the ikon 2.

Just an example but the Q Acoustics 2050i is an alternative price wise and about 6db more sensitive, the equivilent of using an amplifier that is 4 times as powerful!

Ie if you say the 610 delivers around 40wpc, then with the 2050i it will seem like 160 wpc. There are other examples that are 3db more sensitive or better, depends what is available in your market.

Hi, davedotco,

I was thinking about pairing it with Dali Zensor 3 speakers (88 db) - would that be a good choice? Marantz gear is often talked about as being too laid-back which is good for jazz but not good for rock music. Any other highly sensitive speakers that might help compensate for Marantz's lack of oomph and make for a better rock listening?

 

[andyjm]

It seems a good unit but i am highly suspicious of the power output.

It is rated as max 60W with 10% THD and max 50W with 0.7%.

I am looking to purchase a pair of DALI IKON2MK2 speakers. Will the mcr610 power them well? When i say power them well, i mean to really drive them hard.

The unit is good on paper except on the power values.

Power measurement at 10% THD is meaningless, you will have given up long before that at the distorted racket coming out of your speakers. In my book, 0.1% THD+N (total harmonic distortion plus noise) is the threshold for Hifi, anything above that is a public address system.

Comparing power levels at the point the amp crosses the 0.1% threshold is (IMO) a fair way of comparing two amplifiers, given the same frequency input and same load.

 

[rainsoothe]

There's a blog of some guy that tested several speakers for his Marantz MCR 610, among which were the usual suspects: Dali Zensor 1 and 3, Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 and Q Acoustics 2020, and his conclusion was that the Zensor 3 was the best of the bunch. After that, the dealer sugested trying B&W 686 s2, and, for him, it was a revelation.

So you could shortlist the Zensor 3 and the B&W 686 s2. I'm not a fan of the MAs, and I haven't heard the Q Acoustics. Heard Dali Zensor 3 + Marantz PM6005 and it sounded wonderful, and I'm also a fan of B&W speakers, so give that combo a try as well.

goodluck

 

[Craig M.]

The Dalis aren't hugely sensitive but I'd be surprised if the 610 was found lacking unless you're trying to fill the Royal Albert Hall. The amount of bunkum spouted about power output (in general, I don't especially mean here) is amazing. Even a five Watt RMS amp is capable of going uncomfortably loud powering 90dB+ speakers in an average room. The Dalis have a sensitivity of 86dB which means when fed with just 1 Watt of clean power, if you stand a meter from them they'll be about as as loud as standing five meters from a pneumatic drill. But no, the 610 isn't ever going to fool you that you're in a nightclub.

I've just had a look at the Crown amp power calculator, it says that to provide 80db at a listening position 3 metres away and allowing 20db headroom for peaks (something well recorded could easily have over 20db peaks) from a speaker with a sensitivity of 86db, I'd need an amp with 226 watts. Given the op has mentioned driving them really hard, I suppose it's possible they could be listening at even louder levels than that - this site has 80db as the same volume as a ringing phone.

 

[manicm]

There's a blog of some guy that tested several speakers for his Marantz MCR 610, among which were the usual suspects: Dali Zensor 1 and 3, Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 and Q Acoustics 2020, and his conclusion was that the Zensor 3 was the best of the bunch. After that, the dealer sugested trying B&W 686 s2, and, for him, it was a revelation.

So you could shortlist the Zensor 3 and the B&W 686 s2. I'm not a fan of the MAs, and I haven't heard the Q Acoustics. Heard Dali Zensor 3 + Marantz PM6005 and it sounded wonderful, and I'm also a fan of B&W speakers, so give that combo a try as well.

goodluck

In that case forget the 686 S2 and go for the 685 S2 - it's more efficient, in fact, than the smaller brother, and my dealer said the 610/685 are a good match indeed.

 

[rainsoothe]

oh, forgot the "drive them hard" bit. Then back to scratch - what is room size, budget, taste in music and define "drive them hard" a bit please

 

[davedotco]

Another option would be to stick with the 610 and choose a more sensitive speaker than the ikon 2.

Just an example but the Q Acoustics 2050i is an alternative price wise and about 6db more sensitive, the equivilent of using an amplifier that is 4 times as powerful!

Ie if you say the 610 delivers around 40wpc, then with the 2050i it will seem like 160 wpc. There are other examples that are 3db more sensitive or better, depends what is available in your market.

Hi, davedotco,

I was thinking about pairing it with Dali Zensor 3 speakers (88 db) - would that be a good choice? Marantz gear is often talked about as being too laid-back which is good for jazz but not good for rock music. Any other highly sensitive speakers that might help compensate for Marantz's lack of oomph and make for a better rock listening?

Only you can answer this, it is a function of room size, music taste and most importantly the volume levels you want to play at, you seem to suggest that you want to play quite loud.

Look at my post in the 'Loudness Wars' thread for a fuller explanation.

 

[matthewpiano]

I enjoyed having the MCR610 here and there are times when I still miss it. It is easy to over-state the difference between the 610 and most budget seperates and in most cases I would probably choose the 610. It is a brilliantly executed little box with a very complete set of features and very enjoyable musical sound. It won't power a room to party levels, no matter what the speakers, but for normal listening it is hard to fault IMO.

 

[davedotco]

I enjoyed having the MCR610 here and there are times when I still miss it. It is easy to over-state the difference between the 610 and most budget seperates and in most cases I would probably choose the 610. It is a brilliantly executed little box with a very complete set of features and very enjoyable musical sound. It won't power a room to party levels, no matter what the speakers, but for normal listening it is hard to fault IMO.

All very true, just avoid 'difficult', low sensitivity speakers and silly volumes and you will be fine.

On the other hand, a pair of these on the end of your 610 will make your party go with a bang.

 

[MajorFubar]

I've just had a look at the Crown amp power calculator, it says that to provide 80db at a listening position 3 metres away and allowing 20db headroom for peaks (something well recorded could easily have over 20db peaks) from a speaker with a sensitivity of 86db, I'd need an amp with 226 watts. Given the op has mentioned driving them really hard, I suppose it's possible they could be listening at even louder levels than that - this site has 80db as the same volume as a ringing phone.

Hands up I don't profess to know or fully understand the maths of it as much as I probably should, but I do know that if 80dB is the same volume as a ringing phone then I think we can sensibly agree that you don't need 200+ Watts to achieve it.

Really I don't know what night-clubs some of you guys have as listening rooms. Sitting about 13 feet from my speakers in my 15'x12' room, my old long-departed 25WRMS Cyrus One amp could very easily go loud enough to eventually cause serious hearing damage or bring the cops round, whichever occurred first.

 

[Craig M.]

I've just had a look at the Crown amp power calculator, it says that to provide 80db at a listening position 3 metres away and allowing 20db headroom for peaks (something well recorded could easily have over 20db peaks) from a speaker with a sensitivity of 86db, I'd need an amp with 226 watts. Given the op has mentioned driving them really hard, I suppose it's possible they could be listening at even louder levels than that - this site has 80db as the same volume as a ringing phone.

Hands up I don't profess to know or fully understand the maths of it as much as I probably should, but I do know that if 80dB is the same volume as a ringing phone then I think we can sensibly agree that you don't need 200+ Watts to achieve it.

You're right, you only need 2 watts to achieve 80db in the example I gave, but if you want the peaks (of 100db in the example I gave) to be unclipped - 226 watts. That doesn't mean you'd need an amp rated at 226 watts continuously, just one that could provide that in bursts. Some amps are rated low but have massive peak output capability (cno's AMS35 springs to mind), but I wouldn't be suprised if most amps would need a continuous rating of about 150 watts to be able to push peaks of 200+ watts. Obviously, getting speakers with a higher sensitivity is another way of cracking the same nut.

 

[MajorFubar]

Some amps are rated low but have massive peak output capability

Yep there's where the truth is: it's not really about Watts; as I've always said it's about having the clean current and driving ability. It's a little bit akin to engine power in a car. Those who really know what they're talking about rave less about BHP figures and more about torque.

 

[chebby]

I've just had a look at the Crown amp power calculator, it says that to provide 80db at a listening position 3 metres away and allowing 20db headroom for peaks (something well recorded could easily have over 20db peaks) from a speaker with a sensitivity of 86db, I'd need an amp with 226 watts. Given the op has mentioned driving them really hard, I suppose it's possible they could be listening at even louder levels than that - this site has 80db as the same volume as a ringing phone.

My listening position is more like 2.5 metres (about 8ft across the width of a 14.5ft x 21.5ft room) and my speakers are 89dB.

I have allowed 15dB 'headroom' on 80dB * at the listeners position and found that the calculator says my M-CR603 needs to produce 25 Watts.

I suppose it all depends on how loud you expect to listen your music. An 85dB (continuous) level is on the threshold of being too loud (without ear protection) in the workplace and 100dB peaks would be ridiculous in our living-room.

* This is still a tad louder than I listen to in reality. I have done some (not very scientific) measurements with the SPL meter on my iPhone and found that peaks tend to be more like 85 - 88dB at most.

 

[sivakrdy]

People i went ahed with the order. Got the MCR610 quickly, but has to wait for the IKONS!. I connected the MCR610 to my old sony speakers (that came bundled with the HIFI system) with a cheap speaker wire, and the results are good. The loudness is enough to make the nighbours complain. The music quality is suprisingly good.

Will be receiveing the IKONS this month end, as per DALI distributor. Will reply when i receive them.