Mains Power Cables - Give me your theories.

[jaxwired]

I'm not a believer in these products. However, I like to keep an open mind. The only case I can see being made for them is when you have a power conditioner and you use them between the power conditioner and your Hi Fi equipment. In this one case, it could make sense to have a better shielded cable to prevent the noise that was filtered by the power conditioner from re-entering the system.

But most people who buy these mains power cords, are plugging them into the wall from their equipment. My problem with this is, all you are doing with a power cord is extending your 100 meters of cable in your wall another meter to your equipment. So what you end up with is 100 meters of cheap electrical wiring in your walls, followed by 1 meter of quality oxygen free shielded cable. The cable does not remove noise that is already there, it just preserves the integrity of the current for that last 1 meter. So at best, what you get is exactly what is coming out of the wall.

Is the theory that a lot of noise is introduced into your electical current during the last 1 meter, before it gets to your equipment because of cheap cables supplied with the electonics? What's introducing all this noise? Your equipment?

Finally, I know the standard answer is "why not buy one and try it, you can get your money back if you don't like it". It's a good answer and it's true, but I'd prefer to have a rational explanation even if I "think" I can hear an improvement.

 

[Anonymous]

I have threeÿ

An Isotek elite connected to the CD player

An RA Classic to the Preamp

and a Kettle Lead to the Power Amp.

after listening to the same CD three times at midnight, i swapped em all around and in the above confiuguration, i get more sparkle and blackness.

Its a marked improvement.

1930's semi with tired wiring.

;-)ÿ

ÿ

ÿÿ

ÿ ÿ

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

My own view is that it's not about protecting the mains supply from picking up noise at all. It's about preventing mains cables from emitting noise, thereby protecting the much more delicate signals travelling along interconnect cables from interference. I'd always advise someone considering upgrading their mains cables to spend a pound or two on some cable ties first. Just keeping mains and signal cables apart can achieve some of the same benefits.

 

[Anonymous]

wont try wont buy so i suppose i will never know
i just cant bring myself to think that a power cord will make any difference to
a hifi or any system,
my thoughts are the only persons that are convinced of superior sound and vision ,
are the manufactuer and the retailers that sell these products
and there bank manager,
who in there right mind would buy these, there must be a lot of people that have more money than sense imo..

 

[Trefor Patten]

I stand to be corrected as I am no physicist, but my understanding is this: From the sub-station all the way to your mains socket are lengths of copper wire with the occasional metal joint (solder, brass screw, etc). Along with the power which is a function of voltage and current there is 'noise' which comes from all kinds of sources. When you are using this power to heat a kettle element, or light a bulb the noise is entirely unimportant, but not when you are using the power for music (or for that matter, pictures, computing etc).

The 'last metre of cable' uses various tricks of wiring geometry to cancel out the effect of this noise e.g. by arranging for an equal-but-opposite magnetic field to cancel out the noise which is present. The reason why this is important is to prevent the circuitry from having to work too hard at rejecting 'information' which has nothing to do with the accurate playback of music.

A good analogy here would be a water filter. Water is treated before going into the mains and is plenty good enough to drink. It is harmless, contains no bacteria etc. However, you may take the water from the tap and filter it before drinking it because the filter makes the water taste 'purer'. As with music, some people may feel the filtered water is not sufficiently different to warrant the cost of a filter. Others may feel that having drunk filtered water they could never go back to drinking water out of a tap.

Whatever the physics taking place in that 'last metre of cable' the effect is audible and usually perceived as better. Much the same as filtered water is perceived as more satisfactory to drink, even though the change has been made right at the end of the water's journey.

I can vouch for the efficacy of both water filters and specialist mains leads, having tried both, I know I prefer to listen to music and drink water (or tea or coffee) with them rather than without them.ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

I prefer to drink filtered water in tea because the water doesn't have bits floating on top of it. It doesn't taste any different though and a quick google will provide plenty of evidence no one can tell the difference.

I have bought cables/interconnects/speaker wire for more than I should. I think I've been gullible though. It really is only my own opinion but after 15 or so years of listening to good hi fi seperates I tend to agree that power cables, interconnects and speaker wire don't make a jot of difference and people convince themselves they do because they want to believe it so much. I say that as someone who has wanted to believe. I actually still wouldnt swap the audioquest/van den hull/NVA interconnects I have because I am not entirely convinced for some reason. Just saying deep down I don't think I hear any difference.

The biggest change I ever noticed that wasn't a change to the seperates themselves was speaker stands for my Linn Kans. I was geniunely suprised how much of a difference they made.

I know one thing for sure. If 20 of us got together and a third party bought 3 interconnects, £5, £50, and £500 and used them in the same system with same music and we had to bet our life savings on the results my money would for sure be on the fact no one could accurately tell the difference.

 

[Anonymous]

Trefor, your first paragraph is spot on. However, while there's an industry based on your other points, the reality is that a one or two meter cable isn't going to do much.

 

[jaxwired]

Trefor Patten:

I stand to be corrected as I am no physicist, but my understanding is this: From the sub-station all the way to your mains socket are lengths of copper wire with the occasional metal joint (solder, brass screw, etc). Along with the power which is a function of voltage and current there is 'noise' which comes from all kinds of sources. When you are using this power to heat a kettle element, or light a bulb the noise is entirely unimportant, but not when you are using the power for music (or for that matter, pictures, computing etc).

The 'last metre of cable' uses various tricks of wiring geometry to cancel out the effect of this noise e.g. by arranging for an equal-but-opposite magnetic field to cancel out the noise which is present. The reason why this is important is to prevent the circuitry from having to work too hard at rejecting 'information' which has nothing to do with the accurate playback of music.

A good analogy here would be a water filter. Water is treated before going into the mains and is plenty good enough to drink. It is harmless, contains no bacteria etc. However, you may take the water from the tap and filter it before drinking it because the filter makes the water taste 'purer'. As with music, some people may feel the filtered water is not sufficiently different to warrant the cost of a filter. Others may feel that having drunk filtered water they could never go back to drinking water out of a tap.

Whatever the physics taking place in that 'last metre of cable' the effect is audible and usually perceived as better. Much the same as filtered water is perceived as more satisfactory to drink, even though the change has been made right at the end of the water's journey.

I can vouch for the efficacy of both water filters and specialist mains leads, having tried both, I know I prefer to listen to music and drink water (or tea or coffee) with them rather than without them.

Seems to me, what you have described is a power conditioner, not a power cord. A power cord cannot filter out the noise. It can only conduct what it receives. It can degrade the signal or maintain it, but since it is passive, it cannot improve it (or filter it). At least that's what makes sense to me.

 

[jaxwired]

beaverme:

Hi,

My own view is that it's not about protecting the mains supply from picking up noise at all. It's about preventing mains cables from emitting noise, thereby protecting the much more delicate signals travelling along interconnect cables from interference. I'd always advise someone considering upgrading their mains cables to spend a pound or two on some cable ties first. Just keeping mains and signal cables apart can achieve some of the same benefits.

Great theory. This may or may not be true, but at least it makes sense. BTW, I do separate the power cords from the other cables. Power down one leg of the rack, everything else on the other. Cable ties it is...

 

[Anonymous]

I can tell you from an electronic engineering point of view you are wasting your money if you buy after market mains cables.

The instantaneous power for the amplifier stage is delivered from the input capacitors, not the mains cable. If you want to delve down into the infintesimally smaller theortical benefits of an expensive cable then you will be dissapointed to find that the expensive cables will actually transmit more noise from the ring main to your amplifer. (A cheaper cable using thinner conductors will have a greater inductance and resistance and will provide some slight decoupling from the mains noise, although this will probably not be noticeable in real life)
[EDITED BY MODS- HOUSE RULES]

 

[crusaderlord]

the fact remains that many people do hear a difference and WHF fully support the fact that specialist mains cables do make a difference and recommend them.

given we buy the magazines and consider their advice valuable on many hi-fi separates products and have faith in their ability to say which are good and which are not i think its a stretch to then say that WHF dont know what they are talking about in terms of main leads.

i believe they can make a difference - how much difference is only going to be determined by me testing them in my system and so i am going to take one of the 60 day trials and see for myself.

 

[Wightknight]

I am impressed by the way that Clare, Andrew and other WHFSV staff use the forum and take so much time responding to the questions raised and opinions aired. I am also amazed at how thick-skinned they are when so many comments, by implication, accuse them of being part of the "great snake oil conspiracy." It seems that never a week goes by without someone rubbishing products that have been positively reviewed in the magazine, whether it be HDMI leads or mains conditioning products.

I buy the magazine because I trust the rigour of the testing processes and I trust the integrity of the editorial. I don't have ready access to good hi-fi shops and I don't have the time to audition and compare products before I buy them. This means that I often have to buy products from Internet retailers on the strength of the reviews I have read in this magazine. I have always found that recommended products deliver as described in the reviews and that upgrade products give me an improvement in the sound/picture as promised.

The majority of people who use this forum do so to draw on the collective wisdom of the magazine staff and knowledgeable forumites. I am disappointed by the comments of those who then seek to undermine all of this experience and distract those who are looking for guidance and information. If you don't trust the magazine, why do you use the forum?

 

[Anonymous]

I was just looking on this site this morning and thought that the site hadn't seen a power cable debate in a few days, then this afternoon there it is!!

All i know is my whole system down to the sub is powered by clearer audio power cables! Can i see/hear the difference? yes i can!!

Are they all made to measure the exact size req? yes they are!!

Do i sleep better because of this? yes i do!!

It's always in the ear's/eyes of the owner that makes the difference! not the ongoing forum links on this site going over and over again the same subject!!

i've spent almost £500 on clearer power cables, and would i spend the same again for piece of mind and for the difference's i've seen and heard! yes i would!!

Why spend lots of cash on audio and digital leads and live with some crappy power cable hanging out the back of your kit?!

I know i've done all i can within budget to produce the best sound and picture possible! i'm not thinking that my system if below par! i know that to my own personal standard it's the best i can get it, and it's an awesome sound and show!!

To all the non believer's, try it and see?

PS, i've a QED qunduit 6 way mains block filtering the power before hitting the kit and a clearer audio power cable running it!!

 

[Anonymous]

What Hi Fi magazine is an entertaining read and it offers the views of four experienced listeners who get to listen to a lot of equipment and so I'm interested in what they have to say. That's it. The idea that by questioning the worthiness of mains cables you're somehow being disloyal to the great leaders is a little alarmist to say the least. Like the magazine editors I'm also a sane person with a brain of my own and when I know that a website with thousands of headphone users think the headphone amplifiers recommended by What Hi Fi are the worst in their class for the money I'm also interested in what they have to say. Its just another source of information and advice, no more no less.

 

[Anonymous]

Catcher:
What Hi Fi magazine is an entertaining read and it offers the views of four experienced listeners who get to listen to a lot of equipment and so I'm interested in what they have to say. That's it. The idea that by questioning the worthiness of mains cables you're somehow being disloyal to the great leaders is a little alarmist to say the least. Like the magazine editors I'm also a sane person with a brain of my own andÿ when I know that a website with thousands of headphone users think the headphone amplifiers recommended by What Hi Fi are the worst in their class for the money I'm also interested in what they have to say. Its just another source of information and advice, no more no less.

Very well put!ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Fwiw I am sceptical of the power lead tweak. Until I am in a position to A/B switch test, I'll remain so. I will also raise a Roger Moore type eye-brow at those who claim to notice difference in the absence of blind switch testing - i.e. with a reference CD or whatever.

 

[ElectroMan]

I'm sceptical about mains cables and conditioners, because I don't understand the science and I'm not sure anybody else does!

I'm also sceptical because some of these items are ludicrously expensive, leading, I think, to claims of 'snake oil'.

Still, if they work for you, then fine.

 

[JoelSim]

There are many people here who have heard tremendous differences with cables.

A couple of weeks ago I swapped a vdh d102 III for a Chord Chameleon and was stunned with the completely different sound it produced. Far far more bassy.

Likewise I put a Nordost Shiva mains in last week in place of a Merlin Tarantula and there was far more airiness in vocals especially.

Up to you guys whether you agree, but to my ears I do.

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

I am with jaxwired about the logic of putting a mains conditioner between the mains and the individual components, before worrying about individual power cables (which can of course also be used to make doubly sure). I could be wrong but I am going to put my money where my (logical) mouth is and I am investing in a mains conditioner block to see for myself

 

[Anonymous]

AKL:
I am with jaxwired about the logic of putting a mains conditioner between the mains and the individual components, before worrying about individual power cables (which can of course also be used to make doubly sure). I could be wrong but I am going to put my money where my (logical) mouth is and I am investing in a mains conditioner block to see for myself

Yes I agree, start from the beginning and work down the chain.

 

[idc]

wilderbeast: I can tell you from an electronic engineering point of view you are wasting your money if you buy after market mains cables.

The instantaneous power for the amplifier stage is delivered from the input capacitors, not the mains cable. If you want to delve down into the infintesimally smaller theortical benefits of an expensive cable then you will be dissapointed to find that the expensive cables will actually transmit more noise from the ring main to your amplifer. (A cheaper cable using thinner conductors will have a greater inductance and resistance and will provide some slight decoupling from the mains noise, although this will probably not be noticeable in real life)

This is the first technical refute of the difference a mains cable makes that makes sense to me. My upgraded power cable had no effect on my amp. But it did improve the sound on my CDP.

wilderbeast: I There was an extensive study over a period of several months where expensive cables and a bog standard kettle lead were blind tested by numerous volunteers and the end result was that no one could spot the cheap cable.

From what I have read all forms of testing be they blind or not are only an indication, none proves definitely that cables do, do not make a difference.

 

[JoelSim]

Each to his/her own. But my new Nordost made a difference and I'm therefore looking for 2 new ones for my amps. Think I've just agreed a £300 deal for a pair of nice ones second hand.

ÿ

 

[Clare Newsome]

Catcher:
What Hi Fi magazine is an entertaining read and it offers the views of four experienced listeners

More than that - where do you get the '4' figure from?

Catcher:

and when I know that a website with thousands of headphone users think the headphone amplifiers recommended by What Hi Fi are the worst in their class for the money I'm also interested in what they have to say.

Do tell more? Very interested

 

[Gwyndy]

Clare Newsome:Catcher:
What Hi Fi magazine is an entertaining read and it offers the views of four experienced listeners

More than that - where do you get the '4' figure from?

Catcher:

and when I know that a website with thousands of headphone users think the headphone amplifiers recommended by What Hi Fi are the worst in their class for the money I'm also interested in what they have to say.

Do tell more? Very interested

Me too, I've got a Sugden Headmaster, I tested various ones in stores before ending up agreeing with What Hi-Fi and buying it, I'm so impressed that I've now bought an Ampmaster as well and it's forming the basis of my second system. Just need the ight speakers now. I'd love to know who thinks that it may be worse "in their class for the money", and what they think is better.

 

[idc]

Me too, I've got a Musical Fidelity XcanV2, still going strong after 6 years and many hours of listening pleasure.