if you have say a £10 extension lead and decide to stick a £40 Merlin Tarantula MK6 mains lead into that extension....would you still gain the benefits as described in the review what-hifi have given...or is it simply defeating the purpose of buying an expensive mains cable?
Mains Cable confusion?
- Thread starter vpacalypse
- Start date
Good question. The benefit of a good (shielded) mains cable is to ensure there isn't RFI interference picked up between wall outlet and equipment. Thus using a good mains cable will always help. However, a great mains cable won't make as much of a difference (all things being equal) as using one with a proper mains filter.
Think of it this way - if you filter the quality of the mains at source and then use a good mains cable between this and your system, the mains cable is feeding the "good" power supply to your system with minimum of interference rather than simply feeding the "normal" power supply as best you can. It still helps but its always worth considering a proper filter as well - Black Rhodium make a good filtered mains extension block though it is a little more expensive.
Think of it this way - if you filter the quality of the mains at source and then use a good mains cable between this and your system, the mains cable is feeding the "good" power supply to your system with minimum of interference rather than simply feeding the "normal" power supply as best you can. It still helps but its always worth considering a proper filter as well - Black Rhodium make a good filtered mains extension block though it is a little more expensive.
cstanwhf
Well-known member
So using something like a Tacima CS929 and a Merlin Tarantula MK6 together should produce a better result than just using either the Tacima or Merlin alone, right?
idc
Well-known member
Audiophile mains cables have no proven effect on hifi systems, particularly because of the mains filtering with components. A rejection of RFI means better sound claim by Russ Andrews, has recently been the subject of an ASA ruling that they cannot claim such due to the lack of evidence. So I would say do not bother with the Merlin.
As for mains filters, they can reduce background noise or hiss, but that depends on how noisy your mains supply is. Then the effect can vary through the day as voltages and noise rise and drop with use.
As for mains filters, they can reduce background noise or hiss, but that depends on how noisy your mains supply is. Then the effect can vary through the day as voltages and noise rise and drop with use.
Normal
0
I am a professional cable designer- both Audio and RF. Its interesting
seeing what everybody claims, but rarely do they back it up with any credible
research. The ground is sacred in audio- ultimately tied to the zero volt
reference point in an audio system. If the ground has noise on it means the
audio reference point is moving around. Its a bit like trying to measure
horizontal at sea.
Of course what is essential is that the ground between the bits of kit is
clean so they are all on the same relative plane. What happens up to the point
where your system draws it power is less important -as long as you create your
own system star earth then all the audio will reference from that. So if there
is 100m of twin screen supplying your house, so what - as long as the current
is adequate, the system has one common supply so thee is no differential
between the components.
As for filters. give me patience. Very few do it well. The main way most
filters work is by dumping stuff to ground. Not good. Very bad in fact.Why do
you want to take the HF glitches etc and drive them into your ground?- which
ultimately disturbs the audio reference plane. Contrary to popular belief, the
main benefit of screened mains cables is the fact that it creates a high
capacitive link between the live, neutral and earth- i.e. a nice filter. This
filter effect way outweighs any airborne RF disturbance effects- in fact
airborne RF pales into insignificance unless you live under the transmitters
and crystal palace. However, steel braid mains cables do just as most filters
do, and dump the junk picked up straight back on the earth. Unless you have a
technical ground and a 'dirty' ground. In some situations we even have a safety
ground separated out to prevent chassis being charged with noise from the dirty
earth. My favourite is the Studio
Connections cable which is, like military cables, uses a conductive plastic
shield that has a resistance to it and a filtering effect. This means it work
as a filter, but the resistive properties dissipate the energy as heat. It
works. That's why we use it when design marine cables that have to be immune to
RADAR- the RADAR energy simply disappears leaving on trace.
If you listen on a good, wide band system - say a Moon/Focal, to decent
interconnect and speaker cables (from a physics point of view a rarity by the
way) and most hyped up cables, the difference really is staggering. If its not
then something ain't right, or its already at the top pf the game. Until you
have heard the difference, I would say, you have not heard a true system with
decent cable. When you think the performer is the room, that when you know you
are close to the music. Mains cable makes less difference, but once the components,
interconnect and speaker cables are well selected, then a good mains cable will
bring the image in a little more well grounded (excuse the pun) - why - because
another level of noise has been removed- the horizon is more stable.
People say listening is subjective, but our listening is intuitive and
evolved over millions of years to work to understand where noises in nature are
coming from- the ears listen to a few kilohertz, but the brain measures timing
differences of the sound hitting the ear drums to much smaller times- in the
realms of 250 KHz- (that explains how we sense Jitter that resides way out of
the traditional audio band). When everything has the right phase timing and
nothing is delayed by the cable (propagation delay is the technical way we
refer to 'cable speed' and is core to the performance of a system) - when
everything is right, it feels right and the body relaxes. Go outside, close you
eyes and listen to a bird call, you can point to the birds position to within a
few degrees. Everything is in place and that's a lot of timing info being
processed fot that to happen. If the components of the bird call are delayed
and messed around, you would not feel comfortable and could not position it so
well. Its our natural defence, fight or flight skills at work.
Don't get me started on interconnects, digital and speaker cable....
there's a whole world out there, but sadly few cables that don't suffer myopia.
I hope this helps and gives some insight.
0
I am a professional cable designer- both Audio and RF. Its interesting
seeing what everybody claims, but rarely do they back it up with any credible
research. The ground is sacred in audio- ultimately tied to the zero volt
reference point in an audio system. If the ground has noise on it means the
audio reference point is moving around. Its a bit like trying to measure
horizontal at sea.
Of course what is essential is that the ground between the bits of kit is
clean so they are all on the same relative plane. What happens up to the point
where your system draws it power is less important -as long as you create your
own system star earth then all the audio will reference from that. So if there
is 100m of twin screen supplying your house, so what - as long as the current
is adequate, the system has one common supply so thee is no differential
between the components.
As for filters. give me patience. Very few do it well. The main way most
filters work is by dumping stuff to ground. Not good. Very bad in fact.Why do
you want to take the HF glitches etc and drive them into your ground?- which
ultimately disturbs the audio reference plane. Contrary to popular belief, the
main benefit of screened mains cables is the fact that it creates a high
capacitive link between the live, neutral and earth- i.e. a nice filter. This
filter effect way outweighs any airborne RF disturbance effects- in fact
airborne RF pales into insignificance unless you live under the transmitters
and crystal palace. However, steel braid mains cables do just as most filters
do, and dump the junk picked up straight back on the earth. Unless you have a
technical ground and a 'dirty' ground. In some situations we even have a safety
ground separated out to prevent chassis being charged with noise from the dirty
earth. My favourite is the Studio
Connections cable which is, like military cables, uses a conductive plastic
shield that has a resistance to it and a filtering effect. This means it work
as a filter, but the resistive properties dissipate the energy as heat. It
works. That's why we use it when design marine cables that have to be immune to
RADAR- the RADAR energy simply disappears leaving on trace.
If you listen on a good, wide band system - say a Moon/Focal, to decent
interconnect and speaker cables (from a physics point of view a rarity by the
way) and most hyped up cables, the difference really is staggering. If its not
then something ain't right, or its already at the top pf the game. Until you
have heard the difference, I would say, you have not heard a true system with
decent cable. When you think the performer is the room, that when you know you
are close to the music. Mains cable makes less difference, but once the components,
interconnect and speaker cables are well selected, then a good mains cable will
bring the image in a little more well grounded (excuse the pun) - why - because
another level of noise has been removed- the horizon is more stable.
People say listening is subjective, but our listening is intuitive and
evolved over millions of years to work to understand where noises in nature are
coming from- the ears listen to a few kilohertz, but the brain measures timing
differences of the sound hitting the ear drums to much smaller times- in the
realms of 250 KHz- (that explains how we sense Jitter that resides way out of
the traditional audio band). When everything has the right phase timing and
nothing is delayed by the cable (propagation delay is the technical way we
refer to 'cable speed' and is core to the performance of a system) - when
everything is right, it feels right and the body relaxes. Go outside, close you
eyes and listen to a bird call, you can point to the birds position to within a
few degrees. Everything is in place and that's a lot of timing info being
processed fot that to happen. If the components of the bird call are delayed
and messed around, you would not feel comfortable and could not position it so
well. Its our natural defence, fight or flight skills at work.
Don't get me started on interconnects, digital and speaker cable....
there's a whole world out there, but sadly few cables that don't suffer myopia.
I hope this helps and gives some insight.
That is the first post I have read that gives a possible insight into the discrepancy between reviews of mains products that are conducted using very high end equipment, and the common (negative) domestic experience - thanks for your time and effort.
michael hoy
Well-known member
candycable:
Normal
0
I am a professional cable designer- both Audio and RF.
I hope this helps and gives some insight.
One of the few posts on this subject that has held my interest to the end.
Normal
0
I am a professional cable designer- both Audio and RF.
I hope this helps and gives some insight.
One of the few posts on this subject that has held my interest to the end.
It a pleasure - thanks for your positive feedback. My first ever post by the way! Sorry about the typos...,
idc
Well-known member
007L2Thrill:datay:
candycable - great post.
One to refer people back to.
Indeed, great post and interesting.
x3. More posts please.
candycable - great post.
Indeed, great post and interesting.
x3. More posts please.
candycable:As for filters. give me patience. Very few do it well. The main way most filters work is by dumping stuff to ground. Not good. Very bad in fact.Why do you want to take the HF glitches etc and drive them into your ground?- which ultimately disturbs the audio reference plane.
Yes, thanks for the post candycable - it's an interesting read. I have a question however; Yes, I agree with your comment here - I presume you're talking about shunt filtering? But much equipment today (especially AV) is double insulated and uses no earth; therefore, would there still be a problem in your view with shunting "glitches" to earth?
Yes, thanks for the post candycable - it's an interesting read. I have a question however; Yes, I agree with your comment here - I presume you're talking about shunt filtering? But much equipment today (especially AV) is double insulated and uses no earth; therefore, would there still be a problem in your view with shunting "glitches" to earth?
Overdose
Well-known member
Double insulated is different – but the same.
Just as with the earthed components, the system needs its own reference ground and all the components in the system need to have a connections to that. Usually in Hi-Fi the screen of the RCA connections provides this connection between all the components.
Here's a thing though. Each power supply in the system will have an individual characteristic and will be capacitively, or otherwise, linked to the chassis and the incoming mains in one way or another. This means there is a wild voltage induced on the chassis. When you plug an RCA input to an amp with the amp on (not recommended) when the single centre wire connects, but before the ground part of the RCA makes contact, there is usually a nice hum or noise. This is not interference from the air, I assure you (there just isn't that amount of energy in the air unless you system is inside a power station!). What you are hearing there is the difference in potentials between the two bits of kit. Don't forget they are floating with respect to earth as they are double insulated. Not only is it floating at a random voltage induced from its own power source connection to the mains, but the chassis is also floating and able to pick up noise form any mains supply in the vicinity that is radiating. This is not RF, this is low frequency induced energy
When the RCA connects, all becomes quiet as the RCA ties the two chassis electrically together.
All fine. Well no. There still exists a potential between the chassis, the RCA screen has linked them so the difference in voltage is shorted out. But that means that there is an eddy current flowing in the screen. How close is the screen to the signal cable in the RCA wire? Very. Very close, and that does mean the eddy currents flowing between the chassis throught he screens due to induced pick up is capcaitively linking to the signal cable itself and raising the noise floor. You can't get away from it!... but you can mitigate it. In large professional audio and video installations (stadia, film and audio studios, theartres etc) this is a very real problem on an un-ignorable scale that has to be managed in the desing for the system cable layout. In hi-fi systems it is there, just not as prevalent becuase the scale is so much smaller.
Normally this is not considered a big deal, but on high performance systems it does reduce imagary, and there are the techniques that can improve image by considering this aspect of power supplies, grounding and interecoonections. If, for example, you connect all screens at one end only (I would suggest the Amp) and bind everything with one, nice thick gauge bonding wire, then all possible paths of eddy curretns are removed, except for in the binding system ground wire (We call his a 'technical earth'). It's a shame the old practice of providing a chassis grounding screw (prevalent in the 50's and 60's) was lost- those guys knew what they were about!
This system ground need not be connected to mains earth, though if done safely it does give the system a real reference to the real ground that you, I and the rest of the world share. What I mean is that the entire system will not be then floating at what ever voltage gets induced on it through capactive linkage to the incoming mains throughthe power supplies. Though- if done- this must always be done by a qualified, competent electrician. (I need to cover my .... here). All the cables I designed for Studio Connections do not have a screen, but they do have a ground wire which is designed to provide the ground linkage with absolute minimal linkage to the signal wire. And it really works- I nearly fell of my chair when I first tried it because I thought cables I used to use were already reaching the zenith of performance. Fact is its simple physics, and one point that we- as an industry-managed to over look. I have a great quote from David Wilson of Wilson saying it works, - in fact he said about the Studio Connections interconnect cable ' The results were sensational'.
Ok – a mild plug, but I will balance it by saying that I have made cables for a lot of people, From Kelsey (pro audio systems for theatres, concert Halls) Abbey Road , - but its Studio Connections thatare my high end favourites as I wanted to reach the zenith bearing in mind the physics and materials that we know about.
Now- back to mains filters. Even if the components are said to be floating (as double insultated systems nominaly sre), there is quite significant inductive linking between the chassis and the mains (as shown earlier) – and there is also a resistive linkage – albeit mega ohms, throught the insutation. Double isutlated in really about the mains saftey insulation, not about perfect electronic isolation. It is therefore best to make sure the same version of the mains voltage is arriving at each bit of equipment to ensure that there is minimal differential between each bit of kit. Separate filters to each piece of kit will increase the noise differential. One mains filter that then stars out to all the kit is good, provided of course you have checked it is very capable of providing the system current.
And of course, if you use the carbon screen cables, this helps capacitively shunt and dissipate out any nasties that happen to be coming up the mains as well.
Technically…by the way, you referred to shunt filtering. Herein is the main difference between the metal braid screen and the carbon loaded types, - one shunts (to where….?) the other shunts and dissipates, so it's more like an RC than just a C with no R.
Believe me- system ground is one of the most ignored and assumed quantities and yet about the most important in high performance systems.
Hope this helps a little more
Just as with the earthed components, the system needs its own reference ground and all the components in the system need to have a connections to that. Usually in Hi-Fi the screen of the RCA connections provides this connection between all the components.
Here's a thing though. Each power supply in the system will have an individual characteristic and will be capacitively, or otherwise, linked to the chassis and the incoming mains in one way or another. This means there is a wild voltage induced on the chassis. When you plug an RCA input to an amp with the amp on (not recommended) when the single centre wire connects, but before the ground part of the RCA makes contact, there is usually a nice hum or noise. This is not interference from the air, I assure you (there just isn't that amount of energy in the air unless you system is inside a power station!). What you are hearing there is the difference in potentials between the two bits of kit. Don't forget they are floating with respect to earth as they are double insulated. Not only is it floating at a random voltage induced from its own power source connection to the mains, but the chassis is also floating and able to pick up noise form any mains supply in the vicinity that is radiating. This is not RF, this is low frequency induced energy
When the RCA connects, all becomes quiet as the RCA ties the two chassis electrically together.
All fine. Well no. There still exists a potential between the chassis, the RCA screen has linked them so the difference in voltage is shorted out. But that means that there is an eddy current flowing in the screen. How close is the screen to the signal cable in the RCA wire? Very. Very close, and that does mean the eddy currents flowing between the chassis throught he screens due to induced pick up is capcaitively linking to the signal cable itself and raising the noise floor. You can't get away from it!... but you can mitigate it. In large professional audio and video installations (stadia, film and audio studios, theartres etc) this is a very real problem on an un-ignorable scale that has to be managed in the desing for the system cable layout. In hi-fi systems it is there, just not as prevalent becuase the scale is so much smaller.
Normally this is not considered a big deal, but on high performance systems it does reduce imagary, and there are the techniques that can improve image by considering this aspect of power supplies, grounding and interecoonections. If, for example, you connect all screens at one end only (I would suggest the Amp) and bind everything with one, nice thick gauge bonding wire, then all possible paths of eddy curretns are removed, except for in the binding system ground wire (We call his a 'technical earth'). It's a shame the old practice of providing a chassis grounding screw (prevalent in the 50's and 60's) was lost- those guys knew what they were about!
This system ground need not be connected to mains earth, though if done safely it does give the system a real reference to the real ground that you, I and the rest of the world share. What I mean is that the entire system will not be then floating at what ever voltage gets induced on it through capactive linkage to the incoming mains throughthe power supplies. Though- if done- this must always be done by a qualified, competent electrician. (I need to cover my .... here). All the cables I designed for Studio Connections do not have a screen, but they do have a ground wire which is designed to provide the ground linkage with absolute minimal linkage to the signal wire. And it really works- I nearly fell of my chair when I first tried it because I thought cables I used to use were already reaching the zenith of performance. Fact is its simple physics, and one point that we- as an industry-managed to over look. I have a great quote from David Wilson of Wilson saying it works, - in fact he said about the Studio Connections interconnect cable ' The results were sensational'.
Ok – a mild plug, but I will balance it by saying that I have made cables for a lot of people, From Kelsey (pro audio systems for theatres, concert Halls) Abbey Road , - but its Studio Connections thatare my high end favourites as I wanted to reach the zenith bearing in mind the physics and materials that we know about.
Now- back to mains filters. Even if the components are said to be floating (as double insultated systems nominaly sre), there is quite significant inductive linking between the chassis and the mains (as shown earlier) – and there is also a resistive linkage – albeit mega ohms, throught the insutation. Double isutlated in really about the mains saftey insulation, not about perfect electronic isolation. It is therefore best to make sure the same version of the mains voltage is arriving at each bit of equipment to ensure that there is minimal differential between each bit of kit. Separate filters to each piece of kit will increase the noise differential. One mains filter that then stars out to all the kit is good, provided of course you have checked it is very capable of providing the system current.
And of course, if you use the carbon screen cables, this helps capacitively shunt and dissipate out any nasties that happen to be coming up the mains as well.
Technically…by the way, you referred to shunt filtering. Herein is the main difference between the metal braid screen and the carbon loaded types, - one shunts (to where….?) the other shunts and dissipates, so it's more like an RC than just a C with no R.
Believe me- system ground is one of the most ignored and assumed quantities and yet about the most important in high performance systems.
Hope this helps a little more
Thanks Candycable - a wonderful technical insight! Yes (as an electrician) I agree - I use a separate external ground wire on my 6 metre interconnects to link my hi-fi pre-amp to the power amps, and the casework of these components are in turn linked by a separate drain wire linked directly back to a dedicated consumer unit by way of a 10mm earth wire - as you suggest, it works!
My comment/question about "double insulated" was really for those of us with a separate system which is double insulated throughout (as my AV system certainly is and most all AV systems are these days): Are you suggesting then that using a distributive high-current mains filter (for example, one from Isotek, PureAV etc) which feeds an enitre system and shunts mains glitches to mains earth to help remove mains noise (assuming there is noise to begin with, as is not always the case!) would be a good thing since it wouldn't adversly affect the floating earth of the double insulated equipment itself?
I like the idea of linking the components themselves together to provide a more uniform/constant 'floating earth' without reliance on interconnect earthing... I shall try that! I take your point about dissipating rather than shunting noise though: Are there any cables you'd care to mention that feature this carbon loaded screen technique?
My comment/question about "double insulated" was really for those of us with a separate system which is double insulated throughout (as my AV system certainly is and most all AV systems are these days): Are you suggesting then that using a distributive high-current mains filter (for example, one from Isotek, PureAV etc) which feeds an enitre system and shunts mains glitches to mains earth to help remove mains noise (assuming there is noise to begin with, as is not always the case!) would be a good thing since it wouldn't adversly affect the floating earth of the double insulated equipment itself?
I like the idea of linking the components themselves together to provide a more uniform/constant 'floating earth' without reliance on interconnect earthing... I shall try that! I take your point about dissipating rather than shunting noise though: Are there any cables you'd care to mention that feature this carbon loaded screen technique?
Wireman- a pleasure to read your posting and see that at lease ONE person gets what it's all about. Maybe it's the electrical background mixed with the passion for good sound. I think the industry - especially the cable industry, has over the years shot itself as there are so many claims about cables that really do not pass muster, and so many 'opinions' and suggestions about power conditions. The fact is it has become a lottery for most people who don't have the technical background as to what they end up with and whether that particular combination of bits works 'better' than the last. For sure it might sound different- but the physics often doesn't add up. I have seen lots of 'copper in plastic' being extruded in factories with different brand names on, and failed to see how the product can possibly match the claims in the corresponding promotional material.
The industry might hate me for saying this, but the truth is I have never heard a power conditioner make a system sound right. Different maybe, but never a solution. That is with one exception- the Furman toroidal transformer balanced power supply. (It turns 240v ac into a balanced + and - 120v with zero volts/ ground tapped off the centre). I dare say other balanced power supplies do the same- but that is the one I tried. It was with a set of B&W 802s, a Camco Vortex 3 amplifier (this is a professional 3000w amp built for high quality PA systems, such as the National Theatre, but that was designed by a hi-fi fanatic - a good combination). The audio was more grounded, i.e. had a realistic image that made it so musical.
The fact that the balanced power supply works stands to reason- any HF glitches are killed dead by the transformer, and any hum or field cancel becuase of the live and neutrals have been turned into a nice anti=phase matched pair. Result- noise floor down a ton. Logic. Physics.
So, even having down some work for Furman, I seriously could not put my hand on my heart and say that power conditioner improves the situation. OK- sometime they might - but that depends. It's also pretty insulting to the designers' of the power supplies in the beautifully designed equipment we have to say that there power supply needs an extra 0.1u cap or whatever! Like we know better....Saying that, I have seen some TV images improve with a mains filter fitter inline (normally with an inductive element) but again - it the system earth topology was done to the highest standard in the first place (and not a lot of people get the principle of single earth points and not carrying screens at both ends of an interconnection) then the image would be better anyway - better that with the filter.
I watched 'The King's Speech' last week - I loved the part where the speech commences, and the music is juxtaposed in the background. Why - it's one of my favorite textural classical pieces, so many layers playing on the next, and so much subtle dynamics. It's the 2nd Movement of the Beethoven 7th. Fantastic. But - the interpretation of the film is deliciously paced, much slower than normal. And it is so well recorded. The sound took me. Why is this relevant? When the credits came up I saw it was recorded and mixed at Abbey Road- I cabled the studios there, and pretty well built the penthouse where the film work is mixed. This studio, like all major facilities, is designed using this single technical earth principle, it sound good. At some points I can tell you (knowing Peter Cobbin) that there are often in the region of 200 channels open on some of those mixes. The opportunity for noise, hums and buzzes if you don't adhere to that topology in a system like that is muti dimensional.
An example - I spent three weeks fault finding Robert Trunz's own recording facility (He owned half of B&W and doesn't do thing by halves, I can assure you). The facility was superb with some Levinsons driven straight out of a very nice mixing console. They had Nautilus speakers as well. The studio (performance room) was hidden within a barn some 100m from the control room. We had ensured a really good earth by connection the control room and studio with all the audio cables, and an earth wire of mammoth proportions. However, there was radio interference coning through. After 3 weeks of trying everything I was pulling my hair out. Then I was inspired to squeeze n the cavity between the studio structure and the barn walls to have a look at the mains cabling. And there it was. The local sparky just couldn't help himself, and thought that rather than rely on the 40 square mil earth link we had provided, he had, without telling anyone, tagged 6 inches of 2.5mm earth wire onto a little stake that he had driven into the ground and connected to the back of one of the mains plugs in the studio 'to make sure'.... The elevation of background noise that one piece of wire made was phenomenal. Effectively he had destroyed the pure star earth system and provided multiple connections to ground. This formed a loop which then picked up any RF (radio stations - the lot) as induced eddy currents.
OK - now the entire Hi-Fi industry proably hates me- but someone has to say it. I do surprise a lot of people by saying that professional audio has a lot to learn from the hi-fi industry. I say this becuase the monitor (speaker and replay systems) in hi-fi are far more developed that in most commercial studios. On the other hand, I think the domestic market can learn so much from the professional industry, not about the equipment, but by providing good cable infrastructures that avoid so many problems and do really improve sound (I would have hated the movie soundtrack if it had been wired as most domestic systems as it would not have supported that level of atmosphere and image)
So that's my bit for tonight. I'm off wiring up Kings College in Cambridge tomorrow. And, by the way, I do consider myself extremely lucky and privileged to be doing work at this high level, and to have those people's trusts. I guess I wrote becuase I couldn't stand reading so many splinters of half facts and pseudo science that people were posting about cable....
[edited by mods - no selling, please. And your Forum signature has been updated to reflect your trade status, as per House Rules]
The industry might hate me for saying this, but the truth is I have never heard a power conditioner make a system sound right. Different maybe, but never a solution. That is with one exception- the Furman toroidal transformer balanced power supply. (It turns 240v ac into a balanced + and - 120v with zero volts/ ground tapped off the centre). I dare say other balanced power supplies do the same- but that is the one I tried. It was with a set of B&W 802s, a Camco Vortex 3 amplifier (this is a professional 3000w amp built for high quality PA systems, such as the National Theatre, but that was designed by a hi-fi fanatic - a good combination). The audio was more grounded, i.e. had a realistic image that made it so musical.
The fact that the balanced power supply works stands to reason- any HF glitches are killed dead by the transformer, and any hum or field cancel becuase of the live and neutrals have been turned into a nice anti=phase matched pair. Result- noise floor down a ton. Logic. Physics.
So, even having down some work for Furman, I seriously could not put my hand on my heart and say that power conditioner improves the situation. OK- sometime they might - but that depends. It's also pretty insulting to the designers' of the power supplies in the beautifully designed equipment we have to say that there power supply needs an extra 0.1u cap or whatever! Like we know better....Saying that, I have seen some TV images improve with a mains filter fitter inline (normally with an inductive element) but again - it the system earth topology was done to the highest standard in the first place (and not a lot of people get the principle of single earth points and not carrying screens at both ends of an interconnection) then the image would be better anyway - better that with the filter.
I watched 'The King's Speech' last week - I loved the part where the speech commences, and the music is juxtaposed in the background. Why - it's one of my favorite textural classical pieces, so many layers playing on the next, and so much subtle dynamics. It's the 2nd Movement of the Beethoven 7th. Fantastic. But - the interpretation of the film is deliciously paced, much slower than normal. And it is so well recorded. The sound took me. Why is this relevant? When the credits came up I saw it was recorded and mixed at Abbey Road- I cabled the studios there, and pretty well built the penthouse where the film work is mixed. This studio, like all major facilities, is designed using this single technical earth principle, it sound good. At some points I can tell you (knowing Peter Cobbin) that there are often in the region of 200 channels open on some of those mixes. The opportunity for noise, hums and buzzes if you don't adhere to that topology in a system like that is muti dimensional.
An example - I spent three weeks fault finding Robert Trunz's own recording facility (He owned half of B&W and doesn't do thing by halves, I can assure you). The facility was superb with some Levinsons driven straight out of a very nice mixing console. They had Nautilus speakers as well. The studio (performance room) was hidden within a barn some 100m from the control room. We had ensured a really good earth by connection the control room and studio with all the audio cables, and an earth wire of mammoth proportions. However, there was radio interference coning through. After 3 weeks of trying everything I was pulling my hair out. Then I was inspired to squeeze n the cavity between the studio structure and the barn walls to have a look at the mains cabling. And there it was. The local sparky just couldn't help himself, and thought that rather than rely on the 40 square mil earth link we had provided, he had, without telling anyone, tagged 6 inches of 2.5mm earth wire onto a little stake that he had driven into the ground and connected to the back of one of the mains plugs in the studio 'to make sure'.... The elevation of background noise that one piece of wire made was phenomenal. Effectively he had destroyed the pure star earth system and provided multiple connections to ground. This formed a loop which then picked up any RF (radio stations - the lot) as induced eddy currents.
OK - now the entire Hi-Fi industry proably hates me- but someone has to say it. I do surprise a lot of people by saying that professional audio has a lot to learn from the hi-fi industry. I say this becuase the monitor (speaker and replay systems) in hi-fi are far more developed that in most commercial studios. On the other hand, I think the domestic market can learn so much from the professional industry, not about the equipment, but by providing good cable infrastructures that avoid so many problems and do really improve sound (I would have hated the movie soundtrack if it had been wired as most domestic systems as it would not have supported that level of atmosphere and image)
So that's my bit for tonight. I'm off wiring up Kings College in Cambridge tomorrow. And, by the way, I do consider myself extremely lucky and privileged to be doing work at this high level, and to have those people's trusts. I guess I wrote becuase I couldn't stand reading so many splinters of half facts and pseudo science that people were posting about cable....
[edited by mods - no selling, please. And your Forum signature has been updated to reflect your trade status, as per House Rules]
i'm confused as to why so many so called experts believe that the worlds leading electronics companies don't know how to make a perfectly adequate mains cable?
perhaps someone will alert them to this thread so that they can hire someone that knows more than they presumably do....
perhaps someone will alert them to this thread so that they can hire someone that knows more than they presumably do....
Yeah - I do have some cables to sell - but I have better things to do then try and sell them on a chat forum- I think I have already spent too many hours transcribing thoughts! - and I did mention the fact that I designed them in earlier posts. So what? I am not a cable seller- I am professional cable desinger and electronics engineer that specialised in audio design for 30 years- thats what I do - enjoy the sharing. But if it makes what I say more legitimate then I will happily edit that out (that would not be honest though would it?) You also seem to have missed what drove me to write- and what is the main bulk of my post- that if you read through there are a lot of fundamental techniques of system design then maybe useful and WILL improve most high end system performance at some level. Its simple physics and logic.
The reason these audio cable (and some others) came to be is that when I first did an install at Abbey Road in 1996 I was given the opportunity of really listening to a lot of different cables. Each sounded different- even the ones that were supposedly at the vanguard of technology and at top of their game. The most musical and technical were ones that had been designed from good technical stables - such as Nordost. The ones with 'magic' or black boxes frankly tended to suck the image in or draw life from it. And I mean most. I asked the question, 'how can these cables sound so different if they are supposed to be near perfect?'. At that point I had been designing cable for other industries where a cable has designed to perform to criteria otherwise the application does not work - and I mean Satellites and TV broadcast stations. The fact is that there is one ideal cable in the universe - a large, thin walled hollow pipe- preferably made of superconductor- that is filled and surrounded with nitrogen. Thin so all conduction is at the surface (that's where magnetic fields get established easiest - hence the so called 'skin effect'), a large pipe- so that there is lots of conductor material, - nitrogen - it's about as close as you will get to the perfect dielectric constant of 1. No matter what the application, the closer you can get to that ideal the better.
Only trouble is, this format is a tad impractical in the home. To emulated the only way to get the surface area is to use ultra fine stands, the closest we can get to superconductor without freezing your ....s off is to use copper with silver stripes on it, and the way of trapping nitrogen is to foam it in to a low dielectric constant carrier - polyethylene being about the best combination (a standard high performance cable technique by the way). As a point of reference, the cables that make up the magnets in the large Hadron collider at Cern are made of Niobium-Titanium and run at about 2 degrees absolute - a superconductor, apart from the material being different the construction is similar using many thousands of strands, bundled and immersed in nitrogen. It's simple physics and it works.
So - whilst at Abbey Road I asked ' why are these cables sounding different? Are they doing their humble job of providing a non intrusive link between the highly controlled output of the power amp and the somewhat wild back emf voltages that appear on the speaker terminals? Do I want to fog this connection? I think not. Anyway to cut a long story short, we researched and got there with a cable that worked - and on the way had to debunk a load of myth that people kept throwing at us.
If anyone thinks cable makes little difference here's a simple test. Set you system up, then change just one speaker cable with another type and hear your image go out the window. (This test was worked out by accident when a technician replaced a single cable in a studio and then next day the recording engineer spent most of the day convinced the speaker, amp or mixing console was faulty!).
I hope this story takes some of the edges of your skepticism.
The reason these audio cable (and some others) came to be is that when I first did an install at Abbey Road in 1996 I was given the opportunity of really listening to a lot of different cables. Each sounded different- even the ones that were supposedly at the vanguard of technology and at top of their game. The most musical and technical were ones that had been designed from good technical stables - such as Nordost. The ones with 'magic' or black boxes frankly tended to suck the image in or draw life from it. And I mean most. I asked the question, 'how can these cables sound so different if they are supposed to be near perfect?'. At that point I had been designing cable for other industries where a cable has designed to perform to criteria otherwise the application does not work - and I mean Satellites and TV broadcast stations. The fact is that there is one ideal cable in the universe - a large, thin walled hollow pipe- preferably made of superconductor- that is filled and surrounded with nitrogen. Thin so all conduction is at the surface (that's where magnetic fields get established easiest - hence the so called 'skin effect'), a large pipe- so that there is lots of conductor material, - nitrogen - it's about as close as you will get to the perfect dielectric constant of 1. No matter what the application, the closer you can get to that ideal the better.
Only trouble is, this format is a tad impractical in the home. To emulated the only way to get the surface area is to use ultra fine stands, the closest we can get to superconductor without freezing your ....s off is to use copper with silver stripes on it, and the way of trapping nitrogen is to foam it in to a low dielectric constant carrier - polyethylene being about the best combination (a standard high performance cable technique by the way). As a point of reference, the cables that make up the magnets in the large Hadron collider at Cern are made of Niobium-Titanium and run at about 2 degrees absolute - a superconductor, apart from the material being different the construction is similar using many thousands of strands, bundled and immersed in nitrogen. It's simple physics and it works.
So - whilst at Abbey Road I asked ' why are these cables sounding different? Are they doing their humble job of providing a non intrusive link between the highly controlled output of the power amp and the somewhat wild back emf voltages that appear on the speaker terminals? Do I want to fog this connection? I think not. Anyway to cut a long story short, we researched and got there with a cable that worked - and on the way had to debunk a load of myth that people kept throwing at us.
If anyone thinks cable makes little difference here's a simple test. Set you system up, then change just one speaker cable with another type and hear your image go out the window. (This test was worked out by accident when a technician replaced a single cable in a studio and then next day the recording engineer spent most of the day convinced the speaker, amp or mixing console was faulty!).
I hope this story takes some of the edges of your skepticism.
Hi Maxflinn. I go along with you. Most cable companies don't have specialist, qualified cable designers; they mainly rely on the factories to provide expertise. The trouble is the cable technicians in factories are not generally audiophiles nor electronic engineers. I take my hat off to the exceptions - Nordost being one of them. There are proably a few more- but not many.
Hi Andrew- Sorry I am new to this- Give me a scope and RF generator and I am happy! Seriously - can you point me in the right direction and I will do so this evening. Thanks
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9) Manufacturers, retailers, service providers and their staff are
required to identify themselves as such in their signature. Any
additional information - such as the telephone number, email and
website address of the company - should be put in the user's profile,
where retailers must also list all the brands they stock. 'Trade'
members of the forum failing to meet these conditions will be removed,
as will those the moderators suspect to be trade members posting under
an alias.
And House Rule 10 merely FYI
10) The site must not be used to solicit business of any kind - this
includes any information in signatures and biographies, and
specifically prohibits trade users from linking within forum posts to
their websites, special offers, etc.. Neither shall trade members use
the forums to encourage members to contact them for special offers or
advantageous pricing. Whathifi.com offers a range of advertising
opportunities that can be used to promote relevant products and
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Craig M.:ahh, now we get to it. you have some cables to sell...
There was a kind of inevitability where this thread was going to end up. Usually with a load of bla
There was a kind of inevitability where this thread was going to end up. Usually with a load of bla
candycable:Hi Maxflinn. I go along with you. Most cable companies don't have specialist, qualified cable designers; they mainly rely on the factories to provide expertise. The trouble is the cable technicians in factories are not generally audiophiles nor electronic engineers. I take my hat off to the exceptions - Nordost being one of them. There are proably a few more- but not many.
copper in plastic, black normally does it for me as it blends in with all the other mains cables, though i can't see them as they're all crammed together behind my av stand (ok table).
sony, panasonic, samsung etc don't have "specialist", "qualified" cable "designers"
"cable designers"
copper wire wrapped in plastic and covered in black plastic..
come on, give us a dragons den moment, tell us what they "could" be using with their tv's, avr's and toasters? and why they should be? what benefits are to be gained and again, why wouldn't they know how to make them?
copper in plastic, black normally does it for me as it blends in with all the other mains cables, though i can't see them as they're all crammed together behind my av stand (ok table).
sony, panasonic, samsung etc don't have "specialist", "qualified" cable "designers"
"cable designers"
come on, give us a dragons den moment, tell us what they "could" be using with their tv's, avr's and toasters? and why they should be? what benefits are to be gained and again, why wouldn't they know how to make them?
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