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Made me laugh

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TrevC

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Jun 12, 2013
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Again: if you're deaf.
I have age related hearing loss, but who hasn't? That isn't really the point. Screened wires will sound the same regardless of price. It's electronics. Science, not a faith position. The expensive ones are for the rich idiots that don't understand that simple fact. The mug's eyeful, as Alan Sugar once said about Amstrad audio.
 
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plus 1

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2019
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I have age related hearing loss, but who hasn't? That isn't really the point. Screened wires will sound the same regardless of price. It's electronics. Science, not a faith position. The expensive ones are for the rich idiots that don't understand that simple fact. The mug's eyeful, as Alan Sugar once said about Amstrad audio.
thing is trevc the video was made by somebody who had tried various interconnects in the past, heard no differences, and solidly concluded that such cable (upgrades) were all rubbish !
(check out his previous videos on his channel).

he has now been sent, for free, a cable with a very different design (different design being key) to the freebie ones he has been using for years and instantly heard a difference (in mick hucknall's vocals) which he concludes is an upgrade - these new cables sound better to him !

to state that changing to different interconnect cables ( different designs that is ) has zero impact / change on the sound a system produces is questionable.

the problem is that most "budget" cables that claim to be "upgrades" over the freebies are not - they are just the freebie ones in a thicker outer plastic usually in a bright colour to look "attractive"...

and yes some of these cables cost up to £100 - a complete scam...

i find it difficult to believe that you / or any body would not be able to hear, even subtle changes to a systems sound, when comparing a freebie interconnect, a ribbon design (nordost) or a woven design (kimber)...

one thing we can all agree on (i think !) however is that the price of these (different design) cables is extortionate so you certainly wont find me defending the prices...
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
207
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The best interconnect is one that satisfactorily couples the signal from one unit to another. In other words, two ordinary pieces of wire are required. Screening could be necessary, so let's use screened wire. Shall I plait it, bling it up and add wooden blocks or a mysterious box to aid the placebo effect for the mug punter? No, I don't think I'll bother.

The reason nobody can hear a real difference is that there isn't one, or the manufacturer's deviation from the ideal has caused deviation from the ideal wire connection. Van Den Hul have done that by using carbon instead of a proper conductor and succeeded in making the cable attenuate a little on certain set ups. The golden eared think they sound smoother because quieter sounds smoother.
 

millennia_one

Well-known member
Sep 1, 2014
299
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I have age related hearing loss, but who hasn't? That isn't really the point. Screened wires will sound the same regardless of price. It's electronics. Science, not a faith position. The expensive ones are for the rich idiots that don't understand that simple fact. The mug's eyeful, as Alan Sugar once said about Amstrad audio.
The problem Trev with your line of thought is that science can't prove either. All electronic designers say the same thing, everything can measure the same but depending on the components/ layouts used can sound vastly different. And engineers hate it because they can't explain it but they all hear the differences.

Yes they may be using the same base components such as a Philips this and Sony that and a Samsung this. But what they have done (and this is really what your paying for) is that they've sat down and gone through all the options to make that said product sound its best with the components in side they can. And the above CD palyer is not a massed produced item, same with cables. If that Philips CD player you love so much was made by hand and only one or 2 a year produced it would be vastly more expensive. Philips also license out there tech as well (as you know) which made re-couping the R&D cost easier, which I might add would have been millions and millions of dollars and many man hours between 2-3 companies at the time. And mostly wasn't passed onto the customer. The wonders of mass production!

Has the CD player above had "unnecessary"engineering done to it to inflate its cost? probably! But id never assume anything, I don't know what your Philips CD player sounds like and I don't know what this CD player sounds like. But to Assume it sounds like your player because it may have a Philips transport in it is laughable at best.

Can I afford it? No!

Can any one in this thread actually afford it? -------

And that's my problem with threads like this, people can never see the sense or under stand the need to spend so much on a CD player or any product if they don't have the money or inclination and if you have to ask the question then this product just isn't for you. Its that simple.

Its like me saying saying to a mate "I bought an ezio monitor for 2k last week", and then my mate saying that has no clue "wouldn't a 150 quid one from Costco done the job?" The Ezio is completely lost on him as a product and that's ok.
 

12th Monkey

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2015
505
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5,270
Another thread gets derailed by cables. It amazes me that some people are so certain about everything - even the things they admit to having no experience of.

Essence of the internet, that...
 

plus 1

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2019
526
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470
The problem Trev with your line of thought is that science can't prove either. All electronic designers say the same thing, everything can measure the same but depending on the components/ layouts used can sound vastly different. And engineers hate it because they can't explain it but they all hear the differences.

Yes they may be using the same base components such as a Philips this and Sony that and a Samsung this. But what they have done (and this is really what your paying for) is that they've sat down and gone through all the options to make that said product sound its best with the components in side they can. And the above CD palyer is not a massed produced item, same with cables. If that Philips CD player you love so much was made by hand and only one or 2 a year produced it would be vastly more expensive. Philips also license out there tech as well (as you know) which made re-couping the R&D cost easier, which I might add would have been millions and millions of dollars and many man hours between 2-3 companies at the time. And mostly wasn't passed onto the customer. The wonders of mass production!

Has the CD player above had "unnecessary"engineering done to it to inflate its cost? probably! But id never assume anything, I don't know what your Philips CD player sounds like and I don't know what this CD player sounds like. But to Assume it sounds like your player because it may have a Philips transport in it is laughable at best.

Can I afford it? No!

Can any one in this thread actually afford it? -------

And that's my problem with threads like this, people can never see the sense or under stand the need to spend so much on a CD player or any product if they don't have the money or inclination and if you have to ask the question then this product just isn't for you. Its that simple.

Its like me saying saying to a mate "I bought an ezio monitor for 2k last week", and then my mate saying that has no clue "wouldn't a 150 quid one from Costco done the job?" The Ezio is completely lost on him as a product and that's ok.
+1.
 

plus 1

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2019
526
57
470
Another thread gets derailed by cables. It amazes me that some people are so certain about everything - even the things they admit to having no experience of.

Essence of the internet, that...
i notice you use van den hul interconnects. are they the carbon ones trevc mentions ?
 

plus 1

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2019
526
57
470
The best interconnect is one that satisfactorily couples the signal from one unit to another. In other words, two ordinary pieces of wire are required. Screening could be necessary, so let's use screened wire. Shall I plait it, bling it up and add wooden blocks or a mysterious box to aid the placebo effect for the mug punter? No, I don't think I'll bother.

The reason nobody can hear a real difference is that there isn't one, or the manufacturer's deviation from the ideal has caused deviation from the ideal wire connection. Van Den Hul have done that by using carbon instead of a proper conductor and succeeded in making the cable attenuate a little on certain set ups. The golden eared think they sound smoother because quieter sounds smoother.
so van den hul make interconnect cables, using carbon conductors (instead of copper), that changes the sound when compared to "freebie" (copper conductor) interconnects ?

in that case you have given an example how different interconnect (designs in this case the conductor material) can sound different.

maybe the varying outputs of source components and the inputs of various amplifiers are a factor to consider also ?
 

millennia_one

Well-known member
Sep 1, 2014
299
113
11,070
Another thread gets derailed by cables. It amazes me that some people are so certain about everything - even the things they admit to having no experience of.

Essence of the internet, that...
Isn't that the same for all products not just cables, A while back through this thread peeps were commenting on a CD player that know one has any experience with, assuming it can't possibly sound any better than some 2-300 quid unit or just wasn't worth the money. Whats the difference.?

Many on here have little to no experience with items outs side a certain price point and then try to say it can't possibly sound any better because either 1) They can't afford it or 2) have no desire to own/don't see the point in It, and then punish/bully people that do, by calling them "mugs" for owning such equipment. Then looking through there equipment list seem to have some very nice things that contradict what they're saying including things there trying to debunk. Go figure🤪
 
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plus 1

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2019
526
57
470
Isn't that the same for all products not just cables, A while back through this thread peeps were commenting on a CD player that know one has any experience with, assuming it can't possibly sound any better than some 2-300 quid unit or just wasn't worth the money. Whats the difference.?

Many on here have little to no experience with items outs side a certain price point and then try to say it can't possibly sound any better because either 1) They can't afford it or 2) have no desire to own/don't see the point in It, and then punish/bully people that do, by calling them "mugs" for owning such equipment. Then looking through there equipment list seem to have some very nice things that contradict what they're saying including things there trying to debunk. Go figure🤪
if i had the money, (seriously lots of it) i would purchase an esoteric grandioso k1x purely on its looks !
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
207
50
18,870
Another thread gets derailed by cables. It amazes me that some people are so certain about everything - even the things they admit to having no experience of.

Essence of the internet, that...
The scientific approach means that no certainty or experience of your silly overpriced cables is required on my part. I know how they work, and I know they can't improve on a direct connection using copper wire. We have a complete understanding of how electrical signals travel through wires, and we also have a complete understanding of how people are deceived by hoaxes.
It amazes me that some people are so certain about everything - even the things they admit they don't understand. Like electricity in your case.
 

millennia_one

Well-known member
Sep 1, 2014
299
113
11,070
if i had the money, (seriously lots of it) i would purchase an esoteric grandioso k1x purely on its looks !
Looks like a nicely made product, and in the Far East hi fi is taken very seriously especially in Japan where they go crazy for tannoy speakers and pay the moon for them, often more than there worth
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
207
50
18,870
so van den hul make interconnect cables, using carbon conductors (instead of copper), that changes the sound when compared to "freebie" (copper conductor) interconnects ?

in that case you have given an example how different interconnect (designs in this case the conductor material) can sound different.
I could make an interconnect that sounds different, but I would have to deviate from the ideal to do so. A quality interconnect should couple the two connected items together without attenuation, the VDH is unpredictable because its resistance attenuates in some instances. No good.

"maybe the varying outputs of source components and the inputs of various amplifiers are a factor to consider also ?"

Indeed, but you can't reliably change anything with different pieces of wire by using wet string as the conductor.
 
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TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
207
50
18,870
I don't know what your Philips CD player sounds like and I don't know what this CD player sounds like. But to Assume it sounds like your player because it may have a Philips transport in it is laughable at best.
It would be laughable if I had said that, but I never did.

I said the laser mechanism was widely used in far more expensive players, but I didn't mention the sound of the mechanism at all, only the fact that it never ever skips or jumps when I use it.
 

12th Monkey

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2015
505
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5,270
The scientific approach means that no certainty or experience of your silly overpriced cables is required on my part. I know how they work, and I know they can't improve on a direct connection using copper wire. We have a complete understanding of how electrical signals travel through wires, and we also have a complete understanding of how people are deceived by hoaxes.
It amazes me that some people are so certain about everything - even the things they admit they don't understand. Like electricity in your case.
Who said I was talking about you? Chill..
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
207
50
18,870
i find it difficult to believe that you / or any body would not be able to hear, even subtle changes to a systems sound, when comparing a freebie interconnect, a ribbon design (nordost) or a woven design (kimber)...

.
I find it difficult to believe that you can actually tell the difference unless the cables that aren't just pieces of copper or silver wire are sub optimal in some way. Like VDH carbon.
 

12th Monkey

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2015
505
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i notice you use van den hul interconnects. are they the carbon ones trevc mentions ?
Who knows? They don't behave in the way he describes.

The speaker cabling I had before the current set was also VdH, but was a carbon/metal combination.

I've told the story before, but worth telling again. The bass on Bob Marley's One Love was muddlied/muddied, with different notes sounding like variations of the same note - hard to describe but not at all satisfying.

Chap I spoke to said that I should try the cabling I now use, as it was what MA used internally at the time. It cleared the problem up straight away. I know those who know me better than I know myself (or think they might) would say this was auto-suggestion. It is of course possible that it is, but I don't think so - if it had been, I would also have taken up his suggestion that I should try the matching interconnects for the same reason. I did, but could discern no differences whatever, including in volume.
 

millennia_one

Well-known member
Sep 1, 2014
299
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It would be laughable if I had said that, but I never did.

I said the laser mechanism was widely used in far more expensive players, but I didn't mention the sound of the mechanism at all, only the fact that it never ever skips or jumps when I use it.
Maybe not but Its what you where alluding to.

Look this is a hobby at the end of the day for many people, and with all hobbies everyone have there own ways of doing things, I've given up the chase these day's, so I come here to help people not make the same mistakes I did. But everyone Is entitled to spend there money on what ever they want. Whether that be cables or really outlandish hifi but I try to balance there exceptions and hopefully steer them in the right direction and not waste money. Like spending all there budget on speakers and then left with a 100 quid for the rest.

"Mugs" no just a little miss guided by people trying to spend there money like water and the hype train built up around certain audio products. And then you have the poetic reviews that make it seem like that item is best thing since sliced bread!

Threads like this are just put up to watch people squirm and argue
 

millennia_one

Well-known member
Sep 1, 2014
299
113
11,070
It would be laughable if I had said that, but I never did.

I said the laser mechanism was widely used in far more expensive players, but I didn't mention the sound of the mechanism at all, only the fact that it never ever skips or jumps when I use it.
Maybe not but Its what you where alluding to.

Look this is a hobby at the end of the day for many people, and with all hobbies everyone have there own ways of doing things, I've given up the chase these day's, so I come here to help people not make the same mistakes I did. But everyone Is entitled to spend there money on what ever they want. Whether that be cables or really outlandish hifi but I try to balance there exceptions and hopefully steer them in the right direction and not waste money. Like spending all there budget on speakers and then left with a 100 quid for the rest.

"Mugs" no just a little miss guided by people trying to spend there money like water and the hype train built up around certain audio products. And then you have the poetic reviews that make it seem like that item is best thing since sliced bread!

Threads like this are just put up to watch people squirm and argue
 

Al ears

Moderator
Maybe not but Its what you where alluding to.

Look this is a hobby at the end of the day for many people, and with all hobbies everyone have there own ways of doing things, I've given up the chase these day's, so I come here to help people not make the same mistakes I did. But everyone Is entitled to spend there money on what ever they want. Whether that be cables or really outlandish hifi but I try to balance there exceptions and hopefully steer them in the right direction and not waste money. Like spending all there budget on speakers and then left with a 100 quid for the rest.

"Mugs" no just a little miss guided by people trying to spend there money like water and the hype train built up around certain audio products. And then you have the poetic reviews that make it seem like that item is best thing since sliced bread!

Threads like this are just put up to watch people squirm and argue
Threads like this are simply the input of certain individuals that hijack threads regularly, it was not what the OP intended.
If it gets any further away from the original post action will be taken.
Keep it civil and keep it interesting please.
 
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TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
207
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Maybe not but Its what you where alluding to.

Look this is a hobby at the end of the day for many people, and with all hobbies everyone have there own ways of doing things, I've given up the chase these day's, so I come here to help people not make the same mistakes I did. But everyone Is entitled to spend there money on what ever they want. Whether that be cables or really outlandish hifi but I try to balance there exceptions and hopefully steer them in the right direction and not waste money. Like spending all there budget on speakers and then left with a 100 quid for the rest.

"Mugs" no just a little miss guided by people trying to spend there money like water and the hype train built up around certain audio products. And then you have the poetic reviews that make it seem like that item is best thing since sliced bread!

Threads like this are just put up to watch people squirm and argue
They talk nonsense, I correct them.
 

plus 1

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2019
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Threads like this are simply the input of certain individuals that hijack threads regularly, it was not what the OP intended.
If it gets any further away from the original post action will be taken.
Keep it civil and keep it interesting please.
everybody is being civil as i can see it.

we are all adults just having a debate.
(we are not expected to agree on everything as it would be a boring world right ?!)

the forums quiet this evening for a change anyway...
 
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plus 1

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2019
526
57
470
Threads like this are simply the input of certain individuals that hijack threads regularly, it was not what the OP intended.
If it gets any further away from the original post action will be taken.
Keep it civil and keep it interesting please.
everybody is being civil as i can see it.
we are all adults just having a debate.

(we are not expected to agree on everything as it would be a boring world right ?!)

the forums quiet this evening for a change anyway. if you keep locking threads because we having differing opinions well...
 

Al ears

Moderator
everybody is being civil as i can see it.
we are all adults just having a debate.

(we are not expected to agree on everything as it would be a boring world right ?!)

the forums quiet this evening for a change anyway. if you keep locking threads because we having differing opinions well...
The thread will only be locked because of hijackers like yourself. If you want to continue bickering with other forumees I might suggest you start your own thread and do it there.
 

plus 1

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The thread will only be locked because of hijackers like yourself. If you want to continue bickering with other forumees I might suggest you start your own thread and do it there.
i dont think the thread starter cares whether this thread was hijacked anyway - he / she seems to have gone a.w.o.l !

many, if not all, of the threads i have started have been derailed / hijacked but you have not "moderated" them...

and its not something that bothers me either !
 

rainsoothe

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Apr 30, 2012
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i dont think the thread starter cares whether this thread was hijacked anyway - he / she seems to have gone a.w.o.l !

many, if not all, of the threads i have started have been derailed / hijacked but you have not "moderated" them...

and its not something that bothers me either !
Nono, I'm here, but I don't really care, as this thread was just a jab at a ridiculous thing to say in an article. So ridiculousness is fine by me, but so is locking the thread, what needed to be said was said.
 

plus 1

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Nono, I'm here, but I don't really care, as this thread was just a jab at a ridiculous thing to say in an article. So ridiculousness is fine by me, but so is locking the thread, what needed to be said was said.
i have been told off for my "contribution" to this thread...i'll say no more !
 
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TrevC

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Jun 12, 2013
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As long as all the 0s and 1s are fed to the DAC the sound will be the same from a cheap as chips computer drive as it will be from an expensive encased in chrome diamond encrusted 25 grand monster. It's digital mate. The difference I have found is the Philips doesn't care about the disc being a bit grubby or iffy whereas the JVC I also have does care and jumps and skips if you try it.
 

plus 1

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Dec 5, 2019
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As long as all the 0s and 1s are fed to the DAC the sound will be the same from a cheap as chips computer drive as it will be from an expensive encased in chrome diamond encrusted 25 grand monster. It's digital mate. The difference I have found is the Philips doesn't care about the disc being a bit grubby or iffy whereas the JVC I also have does care and jumps and skips if you try it.
so is it the laser then on your jvc thats causing this ?

please see my new thread as this one will be locked soon...
 

Simon 13th note

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Jul 27, 2020
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Alot of this stuff is willy waving HiFi that has no resemblance to real world performance propped by a ‘review industry’. My experience is sitting next to a linn Kilmax at around £15000 and another HiFi reviewer (magazine) agreeing its as good as A £5000 innuos zenith se. I’d love to try this thing against the excellent £4k Hegel Mohican CD player review I did. I’d bet the Hegel is probably as good or better. Check my vid on YouTube.
 

plus 1

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Dec 5, 2019
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Alot of this stuff is willy waving HiFi that has no resemblance to real world performance propped by a ‘review industry’. My experience is sitting next to a linn Kilmax at around £15000 and another HiFi reviewer (magazine) agreeing its as good as A £5000 innuos zenith se. I’d love to try this thing against the excellent £4k Hegel Mohican CD player review I did. I’d bet the Hegel is probably as good or better. Check my vid on YouTube.
this could be a prime example of the hegel kit being great value for money and the linn being overpriced in comparison ?!
 

Simon 13th note

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Jul 27, 2020
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Absolutely. Linn, Cyrus and naim they are all overpriced most of the time, though the one can be had for terrric value which makes it great. The Cyrus signature stuff is overpriced.
 

plus 1

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Absolutely. Linn, Cyrus and naim they are all overpriced most of the time, though the one can be had for terrric value which makes it great. The Cyrus signature stuff is overpriced.
in another thread you admitted you got it wrong as regards to cost of items you owned, your cyrus kit, your older opinions etc something to admire in that !
 

Simon 13th note

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Jul 27, 2020
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in another thread you admitted you got it wrong as regards to cost of items you owned, your cyrus kit, your older opinions etc something to admire in that !
Having opinions about HiFi is always a of work in progress but with some immutable truths. Like you’ll never get me agreeing to ‘source is king‘ in decent digital audio because you can spend very little on the digital transport. Most people don’t need to spend £2000 on an Auralic Aries G1 To get single percentage point differences. I tried it and the Aries LE at half the price. No discernible difference and diminishing returns like a brick falling out of a British airways 747 that is already diminishing and trying to get on the runway quick smart.
 

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