Lossless audio?

[Anonymous]

To joel, no I dont have a CD player, but I dont need a CD player to listen to CD's or listen to my downloads, I just said my CD.... Not player, just have a PS3 for now.

I think I understand what I am trying to ask, the only thing better than a good cd and cd player is SACD and a Actual Blu-ray recording, but there is not much about of that format.

But SACD I would need a SACD player... Yes?

Thanks

 

[Andrew Everard]

crusaderlord:But if i download from say Linn a high resolution file better than CD its in a format FLAC or WMA - that is suddenly incompatable with Windows Media and I-tunes sigh.

Well, FLAC is incompatible with iTunes, yes, but of course WMA isn't incompatible with Windows Media - after all, it is Windows Media Audio.

And a number of players are available capable of handling these higher-res files, both freeware and shareware. Which is best for you will depend on which OS your computer is running and so on.

crusaderlord:Alternatively if i want to
stream it from my PC (not near my stereo) i can get something like a
Squeezebox or a forthcoming Arcam dac which supports bluetooth - but
again wont some of the quality be lost in the mechanics of streaming
due to bandwidth etc ?

Yes, you can do that, provided the receiving device will support the file formats in which the music is stored. The Arcam DAC doesn't support Bluetooth: the wireless version uses the Kleer wireless techology, and will require an additional wireless 'dongle' to stream music from your PC.

No, you don't lose quality when streaming hi-res music from computer to a client, but you may suffer from music drop-outs or stuttering if you're using wi-fi. I've recently switched back to using Ethernet from the NAS device contaning all my music to the NaimUniti I use as a player for just this reason.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Tarquinh:Isn't he streaming to the DAC in his CD player, though?

I think that 90% of his listening is with CDs.

 

[Dave_]

Tarquinh:Isn't he streaming to the DAC in his CD player, though?Yes.

 

[SteveR750]

Slightly OT, but what are the bit rates available with Spotify, standard premium etc?

I agree with Andrew in storing the original .wav file if you are going to use a lossless format. You can buy a Tb for memory for not much these days, and that's probably 1500+ Cds.

 

[Dave_]

SteveR750:
Slightly OT, but what are the bit rates available with Spotify, standard premium etc?

Spotify 'Free' is 160 kbps and Premium is 320kbps. Not sure what bit rates the Open and Unlimited versions use.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

canada16:
To joel, no I dont have a CD player, but I dont need a CD player to listen to CD's or listen to my downloads, I just said my CD.... Not player, just have a PS3 for now.

I think I understand what I am trying to ask, the only thing better than a good cd and cd player is SACD and a Actual Blu-ray recording, but there is not much about of that format.

But SACD I would need a SACD player... Yes?

Thanks

I'll throw a curve ball in here. Unless you have a half decent stereo amp, speakers and DAC, you won't hear the benefits of lossless files. And the same, but without a decent cd player, you won't hear the best of a cd.

 

[crusaderlord]

Thanks Andrew you are right WMA will be ok for windows media - its the conversion to a file for use on the itouch i am worried about = will it compress the file during conversion and lose the high resolution benefit

 

[Anonymous]

OK, I am going to be a real fool hear.

I undertsand what lossless is ect..

But what is a DAC?

All I really want to know is, what is the best quality music you can buy, is it a CD or SACD or something else. And when you download music say from I tunes, are they all pretty much the same quality, or can you buy better ones like DVD is 1,99 and Blu-ray is 5.99 type thing

I just want to start listning to some nice music that I have not listened to for ages, once I get my RX speakers, maybe some Zep and fleetwood.

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:
maxflinn:so then .. lossless audio is compressed , to make it easier to fit it onto cds , so it takes up less space on a pc , usb stick etc , but it then can be uncompressed and played back with all the data there ??

You really haven't read this thread have you? No, the original audio recording can be compressed in two basic ways, in order to fit more of more of it onto a storage medium:

- You can use lossy compression, such as MP3, which throws away some of the data to reduce the file size. Think turning a word document into a plain text .txt file, losing all the niceties of formatting, font type/colour,hyperlinks and so on, in order to create a smaller file.
- Or you can use lossless compression, which retains all the data, but creates a file that's larger than an MP3, but smaller than the original audio. To use the word analogy, it's like using WinZip or Stuffit or whatever to create an archive.

Frankly if you're thinking of using FLACs or ALACs or Apple Lossless, I personally don't see any reason not to just store WAV files, given how affordable storage is these days.

ta andrew , its a little clearer now i think ..

its confusing though , i thought that "lossless" just described a way of copying/storing files that was an exact copy of the original , and there was no compression involved when transferring/storing . i didnt realise that music stored on a cd may be compressed , but still lossless , a cd that you may buy in hmv etc , i thought they were uncompressed ..

theres obviously a bit more to it ...

 

[Anonymous]

canada16:
OK, I am going to be a real fool hear.

I undertsand what lossless is ect..

But what is a DAC?

All I really want to know is, what is the best quality music you can buy, is it a CD or SACD or something else. And when you download music say from I tunes, are they all pretty much the same quality, or can you buy better ones like DVD is 1,99 and Blu-ray is 5.99 type thing

I just want to start listning to some nice music that I have not listened to for ages, once I get my RX speakers, maybe some Zep and fleetwood.

if you want the best music playback , a ps3 isnt going to give it to you , ok fair enough if you dont want to go down the stereo amp , dedicated cd player road , you want the best a ps3 can give you ..

but it only gets so good , if really good sound from cds , usb , dacs or anything else is what your after , i think you will need a stereo setup , which by the way , would be quite cheap 2nd hand , once youve got your rx6s...

 

[Anonymous]

Ok been doing reasearch and it seems as SACD can be hit and miss, even though it has a higher bit rate, just because the recording might not be that good, so there seems to be no huge difference in CD and SCAD to go WOW.

So for now it seems that CD is the only way to go for quality, until they start recording in Master Audio Blu-ray, or better.

 

[Anonymous]

maxflinn:if you want the best music playback , a ps3 isnt going to give it to you , ok fair enough if you dont want to go down the stereo amp , dedicated cd player road , you want the best a ps3 can give you ..
but it only gets so good , if really good sound from cds , usb , dacs or anything else is what your after , i think you will need a stereo setup , which by the way , would be quite cheap 2nd hand , once youve got your rx6s...

USB, or universal serial bus, is about communication and has nothing to do with sound per se.

 

[shooter]

maxflinn:
i wish someone would explain this stuff in laymans terms , cant be that hard if you understand it can it ??

A WAV file is an exact copy of the original with NO compression.

A FLAC file is an exact copy of the original WITH compression to around 60% of the original.

A ALAC file (apple lossless) is an exact copy of the original WITH compression to around 60% of the original.

A FLAC and ALAC file on average take 1 m minute longer to rip than a WAV file due to the compression process but they are ALL LOSSLESS.

You can easily test this by ripping a CD in WAV converting it to FLAC or ALAC and back again. If you use a good ripping program there will be no loss of information.

Their is though NON lossless ripping and this is called confusingly LOSSY.

The common lossy file is MP3 but their are others e.g. Ogg Vorbis.

These formats ripp a CD, compress and remove what it perceives to be irrelevant information e.g high and low frequencies.

The file sizes are a lot smaller than LOSSLESS and on average less than 20% of the original CD so if storage space is of a premium these formats would be better but a compromise in sound quality results. They also take considerable longer to rip due to the compression process.

The hard drives of today are huge and can store enough of the LOSSLESS format even WAV to keep many a man happy.

Ultimately its down to the individual and hardware used to which format is best.

 

[SteveR750]

daveh75:SteveR750:
Slightly OT, but what are the bit rates available with Spotify, standard premium etc?

Spotify 'Free' is 160 kbps and Premium is 320kbps. Not sure what bit rates the Open and Unlimited versions use.

So somewhat lower than the 1411 kbs from CD audio then. I have bought mp3 files at 328kbs which sounded ok. Does spotify use a better compression (i.e. less lossy) than mp3? In other words does it sound better than an equivalent high bit rate mp3 file?

 

[The_Lhc]

maxflinn:Andrew Everard:
maxflinn:so then .. lossless audio is compressed , to make it easier to fit it onto cds , so it takes up less space on a pc , usb stick etc , but it then can be uncompressed and played back with all the data there ??

You really haven't read this thread have you? No, the original audio recording can be compressed in two basic ways, in order to fit more of more of it onto a storage medium:

- You can use lossy compression, such as MP3, which throws away some of the data to reduce the file size. Think turning a word document into a plain text .txt file, losing all the niceties of formatting, font type/colour,hyperlinks and so on, in order to create a smaller file.
- Or you can use lossless compression, which retains all the data, but creates a file that's larger than an MP3, but smaller than the original audio. To use the word analogy, it's like using WinZip or Stuffit or whatever to create an archive.

Frankly if you're thinking of using FLACs or ALACs or Apple Lossless, I personally don't see any reason not to just store WAV files, given how affordable storage is these days.

ta andrew , its a little clearer now i think ..

its confusing though , i thought that "lossless" just described a way of copying/storing files that was an exact copy of the original , and there was no compression involved when transferring/storing .

It can be, if it's uncompressed, however Lossless can be compressed and still be Lossless.

i didnt realise that music stored on a cd may be compressed , but still lossless , a cd that you may buy in hmv etc , i thought they were uncompressed Max, that isn't what Andrew said at all.

 

[Andrew Everard]

crusaderlord:Thanks Andrew you are right WMA will be ok for windows media - its the conversion to a file for use on the itouch i am worried about = will it compress the file during conversion and lose the high resolution benefit

Well, you'll need to get the file in a form iTunes can handle, which may involve some alternative compression. The best bet is to buy or rip WAV files, and then compress them using Apple Lossless for the Touch

 

[SteveR750]

shooter69:maxflinn:
i wish someone would explain this stuff in laymans terms , cant be that hard if you understand it can it ??

A WAV file is an exact copy of the original with NO compression.A FLAC file is an exact copy of the original WITH compression to around 60% of the original. A ALAC file (apple lossless) is an exact copy of the original WITH compression to around 60% of the original.A FLAC and ALAC file on average take 1 m minute longer to rip than a WAV file due to the compression process but they are ALL LOSSLESS.You can easily test this by ripping a CD in WAV converting it to FLAC or ALAC and back again. If you use a good ripping program there will be no loss of information.Their is though NON lossless ripping and this is called confusingly LOSSY.The common lossy file is MP3 but their are others e.g. Ogg Vorbis.These formats ripp a CD, compress and remove what it perceives to be irrelevant information e.g high and low frequencies.The file sizes are a lot smaller than LOSSLESS and on average less than 20% of the original CD so if storage space is of a premium these formats would be better but a compromise in sound quality results. They also take considerable longer to rip due to the compression process.The hard drives of today are huge and can store enough of the LOSSLESS format even WAV to keep many a man happy.Ultimately its down to the individual and hardware used to which format is best.

Just to add that an AIFF file is similar to a .wav file.

This is a useful reference table when considering 'loss' and bit rates which are not the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rate

 

[Andrew Everard]

canada16:But what is a DAC?

Digital to Analogue Converter: turns all those digital signals into analogue audio your amp and speakers can deal with. Built into CD players, digital music players, computers, AV receivers, etc., but also available as a standalone unit - eg Cambridge Audio Dacmagic - to plug between digital source(s) and an amplifier.

 

[Dave_]

SteveR750:daveh75:SteveR750:
Slightly OT, but what are the bit rates available with Spotify, standard premium etc?

Spotify 'Free' is 160 kbps and Premium is 320kbps. Not sure what bit rates the Open and Unlimited versions use.

So somewhat lower than the 1411 kbs from CD audio then. I have bought mp3 files at 328kbs which sounded ok. Does spotify use a better compression (i.e. less lossy) than mp3? In other words does it sound better than an equivalent high bit rate mp3 file?
Spotify uses OGG Vorbis, and to my ears, sounds much better than MP3s of equivalent bit-rate.

 

[shooter]

daveh75:SteveR750:daveh75:SteveR750:
Slightly OT, but what are the bit rates available with Spotify, standard premium etc?

Spotify 'Free' is 160 kbps and Premium is 320kbps. Not sure what bit rates the Open and Unlimited versions use.

So somewhat lower than the 1411 kbs from CD audio then. I have bought mp3 files at 328kbs which sounded ok. Does spotify use a better compression (i.e. less lossy) than mp3? In other words does it sound better than an equivalent high bit rate mp3 file?
Spotify uses OGG Vorbis, and to my ears, sounds much better than MP3s of equivalent bit-rate.

Ogg Vorbis is a better rip than MP3. Even though it is a smaller file than MP3 it's the quality of the rip thats in effect. What Ogg and MP3 consider to be 'irrelevant information' is the difference.

 

[Anonymous]

the_lhc:maxflinn:Andrew Everard:
maxflinn:so then .. lossless audio is compressed , to make it easier to fit it onto cds , so it takes up less space on a pc , usb stick etc , but it then can be uncompressed and played back with all the data there ??

You really haven't read this thread have you? No, the original audio recording can be compressed in two basic ways, in order to fit more of more of it onto a storage medium:

- You can use lossy compression, such as MP3, which throws away some of the data to reduce the file size. Think turning a word document into a plain text .txt file, losing all the niceties of formatting, font type/colour,hyperlinks and so on, in order to create a smaller file.
- Or you can use lossless compression, which retains all the data, but creates a file that's larger than an MP3, but smaller than the original audio. To use the word analogy, it's like using WinZip or Stuffit or whatever to create an archive.

Frankly if you're thinking of using FLACs or ALACs or Apple Lossless, I personally don't see any reason not to just store WAV files, given how affordable storage is these days.

ta andrew , its a little clearer now i think ..

its confusing though , i thought that "lossless" just described a way of copying/storing files that was an exact copy of the original , and there was no compression involved when transferring/storing .

It can be, if it's uncompressed, however Lossless can be compressed and still be Lossless.

i didnt realise that music stored on a cd may be compressed , but still lossless , a cd that you may buy in hmv etc , i thought they were uncompressed Max, that isn't what Andrew said at all.

no , not saying he did .. just trying to figure out , if one goes into a shop and buys a few cds , can the data stored on them be either compressed or uncompressed ?? we,ll say for example to enable getting more songs on an album ?? i thought up until this thread that the data was uncompressed ?

 

[John Duncan]

No, all music on a shop bought CD is PCM/WAV (ie uncompressed). Otherwise it wouldn't play on CD players.

 

[idc]

SteveR750:daveh75:SteveR750:
Slightly OT, but what are the bit rates available with Spotify, standard premium etc?

Spotify 'Free' is 160 kbps and Premium is 320kbps. Not sure what bit rates the Open and Unlimited versions use.

So somewhat lower than the 1411 kbs from CD audio then. I have bought mp3 files at 328kbs which sounded ok. Does spotify use a better compression (i.e. less lossy) than mp3? In other words does it sound better than an equivalent high bit rate mp3 file?

I agree with other posters here that Ogg Vorbis as used by Spotify produces better sound than other lossy formats. Not enough attention goes on the codec used and too much time is spent on the actual bit rate. For example my Apple Lossless files go from 450kbps for Mozart to 1150kbps for Blondie, but each file is lossless and the same codec.

 

[Anonymous]

Tarquinh:maxflinn:if you want the best music playback , a ps3 isnt going to give it to you , ok fair enough if you dont want to go down the stereo amp , dedicated cd player road , you want the best a ps3 can give you ..
but it only gets so good , if really good sound from cds , usb , dacs or anything else is what your after , i think you will need a stereo setup , which by the way , would be quite cheap 2nd hand , once youve got your rx6s...

USB, or universal serial bus, is about communication and has nothing to do with sound per se.true , i was thinking that canada may use a usb to transport music to his ps3 from pc , as i used to do ..