Lossless audio is not that important

[podknocker]

I understand people having a sonic preference, but I think if every part of your system is transparent to the recording and doesn't impose its own colour, then this neutral sound is the best outcome. If some recordings sound bad through a neutral system, then that's a shortcoming of the recording surely?

 

[Revolutions]

Lots of recordings sound bad. The really interesting thing I’ve discovered since upgrading my system is that some mixes which sounded painful, now sound much nicer. Dirt by Alice in Chains & pretty much any remaster of Nevermind often sound really harsh, something off with the mids in varying levels across Spotify, tidal & vinyl. With the Linn, everything sounds better. Smoother, easier. Probably the opposite of transparent.

It works for me as I listen to a lot of 90s/00s rock music that didn’t have expensive mixing & mastering. (Ironic, as those two aforementioned albums had disgusting budgets.)

 

[Rui]

Can you though? Have you done a blind test? Have you done the test shown in the video?

I have to say I've never listened to a 320 mp3 file and thought it sounds "awful" compared to FLAC.

I think it´s correct. About the video i don´t understand why some think it´s anything interesting, as it talks about nothing new, and the quality of the equipment for sure matters or one wouldn´t buy a expensive system to have the same quality of a 100€ compact system , streaming quality is also top quality so i think a lot was said but nothing that is totally wrong or right ,all make sense but not 100% right as today there is more than 100%, but i go from what i learn there are no percentage above 100% not making any sense saying it´s 200 % better, meaning, as an example "my third foot doesn´t go ok with this snickers model"well maybe not the best example, but how can one find in one item (phisical one), two of them.
Per cent means if i´m not wrong for hundred divisions of 1 item in total, but the idea was nice founding in 100€ , 200€ or even more like 2000% finding in 1€, a total amount 2000€.
About Hi-Fi ,in the past i used to tell my friends "does the tweeter releases sound? if not ,Low-fi" this to keep it simple, and was 14 at the time

 

[Rui]

Lots of recordings sound bad. The really interesting thing I’ve discovered since upgrading my system is that some mixes which sounded painful, now sound much nicer. Dirt by Alice in Chains & pretty much any remaster of Nevermind often sound really harsh, something off with the mids in varying levels across Spotify, tidal & vinyl. With the Linn, everything sounds better. Smoother, easier. Probably the opposite of transparent.

It works for me as I listen to a lot of 90s/00s rock music that didn’t have expensive mixing & mastering. (Ironic, as those two aforementioned albums had disgusting budgets.)

But how nice they sounded, budget is overrated.
My only question when in the 90´s finally had a system with a quality that i found good(except my 70´s gear which still sounds amazing good) ,

one matter left me wondering , why?Has i got better amplification systems and speakers the better my 75 Pioneer turntable sounded and worth my cd player sounded,

and wasn´t cheap only all cds sounded very bad in comparison to the records or cassette i recorded in a Pioneer CT-91a and a Denon DRM-800a from cds,

by this time my first Sony DAT deck wasn´t working but later i got even more amazed by the sound of the recordings if made from a selection of records , from cd, it improved the cd sound as the cassette decks already did.


I already talked with a very old electronic engenier that was into music and he explained me but i wanted to hear a more recent aproach to the matter and now i´m also using a MD deck which is good for some types of sound and horrible to others,

while my old Akai X-165D and GX-4000DS sound amazing good with re-recorded 70´s basf reels, sorry, i refer to my two akai´s open reel decks at top speed and at lower ,

either sound really good, doesn´t that mean that the digital convertion as good as it can be doesn´t sound real as good analogue recorders and players,

or is it related to the fact that all records were recorded in analogue and in cd some sounded real bad as an example the so much apreciated "Nevermind" from Nirvana,

that having still a radio show i would play the record "in bloom" from Sub-Pop and after the cd of nevermind with the same song and asked,

if it was only me or listeners felt the same, all said that guitars sounded more alive while in the cd was a bit strange,

later i discovered after a friend forgeting at my home some 5 or 6 Lp´s and there was "Nevermind" in record and how good it sounded ,

that´s when i start to say that cds were a bad version of the work done in studio and i think not all have cd players around 50.000€ to make cds sound better,

or the use of cheaper DAC, that mostly changes the equalization this refering to around 100€ dac´s, and how cheap costs a DAC with very high quality that can be installed in most of the cd players,

and added the fact that laser and lenses quality also make a good cd player. mine cost the doble of most of a complete cd player around 500€, new or even more expensive

 

[Rui]

I prefer not to except in extreme cases, but you do you.

my like was more like "Cool!" "But , you do you" nice expression

 

[Rui]

A question , how did you inserted a description of your material , hi-fi one on the comment section bellow , i also could writte what i´m using at the moment, i looked for it but couldn´t find a way to do it , can anyone explain how it´s done, i know this isn´t the best place to adress this question but i´m Portuguese and might had failed some option wtitten in English

 

[abacus]

But how nice they sounded, budget is overrated.
My only question when in the 90´s finally had a system with a quality that i found good(except my 70´s gear which still sounds amazing good) ,

one matter left me wondering , why?Has i got better amplification systems and speakers the better my 75 Pioneer turntable sounded and worth my cd player sounded,

and wasn´t cheap only all cds sounded very bad in comparison to the records or cassette i recorded in a Pioneer CT-91a and a Denon DRM-800a from cds,

by this time my first Sony DAT deck wasn´t working but later i got even more amazed by the sound of the recordings if made from a selection of records , from cd, it improved the cd sound as the cassette decks already did.


I already talked with a very old electronic engenier that was into music and he explained me but i wanted to hear a more recent aproach to the matter and now i´m also using a MD deck which is good for some types of sound and horrible to others,

while my old Akai X-165D and GX-4000DS sound amazing good with re-recorded 70´s basf reels, sorry, i refer to my two akai´s open reel decks at top speed and at lower ,

either sound really good, doesn´t that mean that the digital convertion as good as it can be doesn´t sound real as good analogue recorders and players,

or is it related to the fact that all records were recorded in analogue and in cd some sounded real bad as an example the so much apreciated "Nevermind" from Nirvana,

that having still a radio show i would play the record "in bloom" from Sub-Pop and after the cd of nevermind with the same song and asked,

if it was only me or listeners felt the same, all said that guitars sounded more alive while in the cd was a bit strange,

later i discovered after a friend forgeting at my home some 5 or 6 Lp´s and there was "Nevermind" in record and how good it sounded ,

that´s when i start to say that cds were a bad version of the work done in studio and i think not all have cd players around 50.000€ to make cds sound better,

or the use of cheaper DAC, that mostly changes the equalization this refering to around 100€ dac´s, and how cheap costs a DAC with very high quality that can be installed in most of the cd players,

and added the fact that laser and lenses quality also make a good cd player. mine cost the doble of most of a complete cd player around 500€, new or even more expensive

You cannot get a better recording than the original master, if you do then your recording is sub-standard, just the same as if the recording sounds worse.
Vinyl and cassettes have a limited dynamic range compared to CD and will sound different. (If used to vinyl they may sound worse even when they not)
The better the playback equipment the more it will show up the faults in the recording, (A great recording will sound great, but a bad recording will sound worse)
You will always be reliant on the quality of the master and if you don't like it, you will have to lump it. (This is why a good master recorded onto vinyl will sound better than a bad master recorded onto CD and Vica versa)

Bill

 

[Rui]

You cannot get a better recording than the original master, if you do then your recording is sub-standard, just the same as if the recording sounds worse.
Vinyl and cassettes have a limited dynamic range compared to CD and will sound different. (If used to vinyl they may sound worse even when they not)
The better the playback equipment the more it will show up the faults in the recording, (A great recording will sound great, but a bad recording will sound worse)
You will always be reliant on the quality of the master and if you don't like it, you will have to lump it. (This is why a good master recorded onto vinyl will sound better than a bad master recorded onto CD and Vica versa)

Bill

well in lalala land it´s true but dynamics as it was called always the cd might have better results in papper at people´s home´s not true just look at the power meters in a vynil record than put the same album in cd and i´m not refering to this new turntables with 50´s ancient technology the only thing missing is the handle to give speed to it, it´s so sad that people think in the past sound was horrible as a 2.000€ turntable today that sounds 1/20 of a 2nd hand technics from 72 to 79 in use since then with a 207C cartridge that can be bought from 50 to 300€, serviced, might be true but at least you hear a band playing not a messed up version of it like the cd , i would say that the cd sounds like a cheap cassette recorded in a cheap cassette deck but not true , it´s even worth but if you never heard music with enough attention you´ll never know what is that thing that people enjoy, then what about master tapes, what´s that worry about master taps if you don´t like to hear it doesn´t matter how many patterns were made from the original one but it´s still a faithfull copy of the original in digital it works but recorded into a analogue format as here the problem is not analogue or digital but a absolete format from the 70´s , or you think we old guys are listening to the first form of round records , no it evolved a lot , well till the top quality that is not heard in any cd that in some cases it sounds good but that is rare to happen amd not acurate but look at pappers and i´ll listen to music as it was played, not just a part of it

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

a 2.000€ turntable today that sounds 1/20 of a 2nd hand technics from 72 to 79

I hate to say it, but as it's not possible to quantify something sounding X times better than something else, you're just making that up.

 

[good_enough]

More heat than light in this thread. Perhaps go back to the video, where the presenter says (towards the end) that lossless versus lossy does not make a difference in 'casual listening' but you might notice if you 'really listened'.

Yeah OK...

 

[Steve983]

More heat than light in this thread. Perhaps go back to the video, where the presenter says (towards the end) that lossless versus lossy does not make a difference in 'casual listening' but you might notice if you 'really listened'.

Yeah OK...

Very good point.

 

[SeattleChris]

More heat than light in this thread. Perhaps go back to the video, where the presenter says (towards the end) that lossless versus lossy does not make a difference in 'casual listening' but you might notice if you 'really listened'.

Yeah OK...

This is the point...it all depends on what kind of listener you are. If you're what I call an "active" listener (like me) you sit in the sweet spot between your speakers with your eyes closed, imagining the sound stage. I do this for hours on end. When I moved from MP3's to lossless the soundstage opened up in all dimensions. A "casual" listener probably won't hear the difference since MP3's do sound pretty good.

 

[Rui]

I hate to say it, but as it's not possible to quantify something sounding X times better than something else, you're just making that up.

i´ve tried a lot of new turntables since 2020 on a music store of a friend of mine but anyone who has experience with old 70´s turntables can quantify ,

how bad are new turntables and cartridges built, sometimes brands with more known have not that good cartridges and charge a very high price for almost no quality cartridges one of this brands is Ortofon that in the past almost all models were average to high quality at the most today it´s rare to see one,

and some do think they have good turntables and catridges without ever have listened to a average turntable from the 70´s , i refer 70´s as in the 80´s and 90´s bought three new turntables , while they worked sounded very good but ended up using my 70´s turntables most of them bought by my father who was a very highly interested in the best sound quality,

having made o lot of purchases not only in the 70´s but the 60´s and in the 80´s he spend a lot of money on systems with very high quality from Sony or Technics but somehow all ceased to work with time, while the 70´s systems bought are working today with regular maintenace ,

is favorite brand was Nakamichi but i do remenber it well ,he sending them for repair while other older systems worked perfect and used by me as they were stoped, from brands like Accuphase, Phase Linear, Macintosh , Technics and Pioneer between others he also bought since late 60´s ,

today i´ve listened to very good systems only the price is above many people´s budgets as to get a good sound quality is needed at least from 50 to 10.000€ ,

which in my opinion is too high for the average consumer , how can someone say that the Ortofon 2Mred or blue are good ,never heard such a low quality cartridges ,

i bought a 2Mblack that i have it stoped as it wasn´t as good has i was told but found in Grado the prestige III Gold that is now less expensive and reveals a lot of quality ,

but there´s another point as i have many records with diferent types of sound and some sound real strange with this new wave of cartridges while if played on 70´s turntables with 70´s cartridges they sound diferent but not strange as in bad compatibilitie ,

and i´m refering to records bought from 2017 ´till 2025, i can give the example of the technics cartridge the 207 C or the 205 that was world wide known and at the time it was substituted by a better cartridge from shure or other brand but today it´s a cartridge that is above many new ones quality,

also the size of the cartridges show how some corners were cutted, so to speak, as the need of pre-amplifiers is only because of the cartridges of the low volume they release, having many phono stages one can´t use them as none can even with a litle volume knob substitute a pre-amplifier on the low volume on new cartridges and some call them high output cartridges having a very low sound volume,

in the past there were low volume cartridges but not as today and were very good cartridges that reveal a almost perfect sound refering to some MC cartridges from the 70´s, that almost no one bought them as they were expensive and MM cartridges had already a very high quality of sound,

to end i like to refer the tangential turntable well known from Revox that under the rectangular box had a all system made by ortofon and it sounded amazing as today it´s hard to find a ortofon cartridge that as that level of quality if not having a price of many thousands of €

,even this ones aren´t totally equal as they are not built as in the past, stylus have a very litle tip who can read only a few hours of use compared to before the year 2000 stylus sold that one could listen to records and after a long time would be noticed a litle decrease of quality on the last tracks of each lp side with more time of music, that was when the stylus started to be a litle worned out,

today i´m not sure if people when playing a cd notice and huge decrease on quality compared to records sound wise , it sounds wider not so narrow, dynamics are incredible better , the only factor that the cd is better is the higher level of sound no matter how good is the player and people still talk about coloured sound ,

regarding other sources but forget that what they have at home as a cd player is nothing more that super cloured sound,

of course some cds do sound good but are rarities in all that is sold, but that can be explained , only i can not be here writting all day to explain all that is sound, another matter is the evolution that is limited to some new systems of conectivity or digital improvement of sound about amplification none can substitute in sound quality good amplifiers of the 70´s ,

if not spending around 50.000€ , as the PrimaLuna, Dan D´Agostino, Arcam , Nagra, Accuphase, Burmester and i don´t refer to Macintosh as a friend spent a fortune in a new component system with the old built new Kiplisch LaScala and maybe because he never liked records as when young he was really not capable of keeping a record sounding good,

has he having lot´s of money used to put on top of a pair of good technics speakers all covers and in the other speaker all records and he had a top of the line Technics system from 79 but i never saw him cleaning a record or substitute a stylus,

for him cds are better but also don´t last much, the new macinstosh system is very good but maybe because he only plays cds ,sounds not that good and compared with a early 70´s macintosh system i have,

it´s very far in quality for the worth .I´ve seen new macintosh systems but out of this world price to sound real good and no doubt they are good, as if i was crazy enough i would buy one but i can buy a good car and a good house with the same amount

 

[Rui]

This is the point...it all depends on what kind of listener you are. If you're what I call an "active" listener (like me) you sit in the sweet spot between your speakers with your eyes closed, imagining the sound stage. I do this for hours on end. When I moved from MP3's to lossless the soundstage opened up in all dimensions. A "casual" listener probably won't hear the difference since MP3's do sound pretty good.

if in a car while driving and if the car audio as good mp3 proper sound ,it´s aceptable this in it´s higher quality, it´s aceptable but at home it´s not that good or people today are ok with what used to be low quality

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

i´ve tried a lot of new turntables since 2020 on a music store of a friend of mine but anyone who has experience with old 70´s turntables can quantify ,how bad are new turntables and cartridges built, sometimes brands with more known have not that good cartridges and charge a very high price for almost no quality cartridges one of this brands is Ortofon that in the past almost all models were average to high quality at the most today it´s rare to see one, and some do think they have good turntables and catridges without ever have listened to a average turntable from the 70´s , i refer 70´s as in the 80´s and 90´s bought three new turntables , while they worked sounded very good but ended up using my 70´s turntables most of them bought by my father who was a very highly interested in the best sound quality having made o lot of purchases not only in the 70´s but the 60´s and in the 80´s he spend a lot of money on systems with very high quality from Sony or Technics but somehow all ceased to work with time, while the 70´s systems bought are working today with regular maintenace ,is favorite brand was Nakamichi but i do remenber it well ,he sending them for repair while other older systems worked perfect and used by me as they were stoped, from brands like Accuphase, Phase Linear, Macintosh , Technics and Pioneer between others he also bought since late 60´s , today i´ve listened to very good systems only the price is above many people´s budgets as to get a good sound quality is needed at least from 50 to 10.000€ , which in my opinion is too high for the average consumer , how can someone say that the Ortofon 2Mred or blue are good ,never heard such a low quality cartridges , i bought a 2Mblack that i have it stoped as it wasn´t as good has i was told but found in Grado the prestige III Gold that is now less expensive and reveals a lot of quality but there´s another point as i have many records with diferent types of sound and some sound real strange with this new wave of cartridges while if played on 70´s turntables with 70´s cartridges they sound diferent but not strange as in bad compatibilitie , and i´m refering to records bought from 2017 ´till 2025, i can give the example of the technics cartridge the 207 C or the 205 that was world wide known and at the time it was substituted by a better cartridge from shure or other brand but today it´s a cartridge that is above many new ones quality also the size of the cartridges show how some corners were cutted, so to speak, as the need of pre-amplifiers is only because of the cartridges of the low volume they release, having many phono stages one can´t use them as none can even with a litle volume knob substitute a pre-amplifier on the low volume on new cartridges and some call them high output cartridges having a very low sound volume, in the past there were low volume cartridges but not as today and were very good cartridges that reveal a almost perfect sound refering to some MM cartridges from the 70´s, that almost no one bought them as they were expensive and MC cartridges had already a very high quality of sound, to end i like to refer the tangential turntable well known from Revox that under the rectangular box had a all system made by ortofon and it sounded amazing as today it´s hard to find a ortofon cartridge that as that level of quality if not having a price of many thousands of € ,even this ones aren´t totally equal asd they are not built as in the past, stylus have a very litle tip who can read only a few hours of use compared to before the year 2000 stylus sold that one could listen to records and after a long time would be noticed a litle decrease of quality on the last tracks of each lp side with more time of music, that was when the stylus started to be a litle worned out, today i´m not sure if people when playing a cd notice and huge decrease on quality compared to records sound wise , it sounds wider not so narrow, dynamics are incredible better , the only factor that the cd is better is the higher level of sound no matter how good is the player and people still talk about coloured sound , regarding other sources but forget that what they have at home as a cd player is nothing more that super cloured sound, of course some cds do sound good but are rarities in all that is sold, but that can be explained , only i can not be here writting all day to explain all that is sound, another matter is the evolution that is limited to some new systems of conectivity or digital improvement of sound about amplification none can substitute in sound quality good amplifiers of the 70´s , if not spending around 50.000€ , as the PrimaLuna, Dan D´Agostino, Arcam , Nagra, Accuphase, Burmester and i don´t refer to Macintosh as a friend spent a fortune in a new component system with the old built new Kiplisch LaScala and maybe because he never liked records as when young he was really not capable of keeping a record sounding good as he having lot´s of money used to put on top of a pair of good technics speakers all covers and in the other speaker all records and he had a top of the line Technics system from 79 but i never saw him cleaning a record or substitute a stylus, for him cds are better but also don´t last much, the new macinstosh system is very good but maybe because he only plays cds ,sounds not that good and compared with a early 70´s macintosh system i have, it´s very far in quality for the worth .I´ve seen new macintosh systems but out of this world price to sound real good and no doubt they are good, as if i was crazy enough i would buy one but i can buy a good car and a good house with the same amount

I hate to say it Rui, but I doubt anyone is going to read a block of uninterrupted text of that size. I'd definitely be splitting larger posts of this size into smaller chunks if I wanted people to devote the time necessary to read them.

 

[Rui]

I hate to say it Rui, but I doubt anyone is going to read a block of uninterrupted text of that size. I'd definitely be splitting larger posts of this size into smaller chunks if I wanted people to devote the time necessary to read them.

if anyone shows interest to read it i´m happy as i tried to resume it a lot, just made some spaces to be reader´s friendly but if not wanting to read it ,

what can i say , no interest in what some have to say about what happens in hi-fi world today, neither what happened in 1980 when brands decrease a lot the sound quality in any of their components even the most expensive ones,

snake oil is what i can say in resume, thrown to people´s eyes.

Some confuse digital sound with a format called compact disc ,

wich doesn´t relate at all with what´s digital or analogue, as digital already had time to evolve a lot, but at the end all listen to analogue sound,

 

[podknocker]

😕

 

[davidf]

Should the title of this thread be changed to a question rather than a statement? It just reads as attention grabbing as those YouTube videos...

 

[Jasonovich]

I have been slightly AWOL on the HiFi scene, sort of rekindling my affection for photography. The title of the thread, if I were to spin it to photography, it's like asking the question, large aperture lens makes no difference? True if you're rubbish at taking photos!

While this is in no way a criticism of the OP, it is nevertheless a loaded statement and feels like we're all being led down the rabbit hole.

“And what is the use of a book," thought Alice, "without pictures or conversation?”
(quote from Alice in Wonderland)

🙂

 

[Jasonovich]

I'm going off topic, not really worth opening a new thread. I realise there are parallels between HiFi and photography, one serves the ears and the other serves the eyes, so if you ever go deaf or blind, there's always an option 🙂
(if you're both deaf and blind, well, you're absolutely scr*w*d , there's always touch, not suggesting you go into the porn industry🤣 )

It's like distortion in vinyl, it's the same with grain (or noise) on your photos both can be used to good effect.
A perfect photo or the perfect sound is never attainable, s*d the measurements, it's all subjective, that's how the brain works!