Looking for a stereo amplifier

[nissen1502]

A little update.

I've decided not to buy a stereo amplifier because it seems like marketing ******** and placebo. I am borrowing my friends Hegel H200 and it sounds almost exactly the same as my Denon AVR-X500. It doesn't even have significant volume difference. With the Hegel costing 10x more I expected to actually hear a difference without sitting for hours barely hearing some stuff that I'm not sure is different or not compared to my Denon.

So after reading what might be wrong, I've found multiple blind tests which all prove that it makes no significant difference, so I've decided to go for a surround receiver with good room correction and probably upgrade to 5.1 sometime, but as for now, only stereo. Could you guys recommend a good room correction? I'm not interested in hearing "It sounds better" because in my experience, it doesn't. Speakers sound different. As for DACs, I don't know if they sound different as I haven't got anything to compare my Schiit Modi too, or the inbuilt DAC in my Denon. But so far they all sound pretty much the same. The only reason I would have a Hegel H200 over a Denon AVR-X500 is the bragging rights. And it looks nice.

Edit: And iQ speakers. I'm stupid for not checking this, but it seems your company sell Abrahamsen gear, so yeah, marketing. This is a really sad moment for me, because I actually really love music and care a lot about how it sounds. I guess I'll just stick to buying good speakers.

IME. An amp of the quality of the Hegel should be making a pronounced improvement. If it isn't (and you should trust what you are hearing), there is something else going on.

- That could be the speakers....are they Blu-Taked to quality filled stands / correctly positioned and stable / spiked into a solid floor (not a suspended wooden one)?

- Is there a quality source with lossless resolution?

- Are you using decent, no-nonsense copper cables, with the amp plugged directly into the wall?

- It could be the room....can you describe it and how the speakers are positioned.

- It is possible that you need speakers of the quality of the amp, to really hear the improvement you are striving for.

1. I got my B&W 685 S2's on some Dali Connect stands. The guy in the shop said they work perfectly with my speakers and I've never noticed a problem with them, so it shouldn't make a difference.

2. I'm running FLAC files and spotify. The FLAC files sounded a bit more open, but thats about it. I got a Schiit Modi connected to my PC with USB and then connected to the HEGEL with good RCA cables. I would probably hear a difference with a better DAC (If I even believe that DAC's make a difference, which I don't) but an amplifier that costs over 20000NOK should be able to make a difference without the DAC being super good.

3. Cables are not a special brand, but it's definitely not a bad one. It's 99.9999% oxygen free copper AWG 12.

4. I have a angled roof, and my room is a rectangular shape. About 3 meters in depth and 5 in length. My speakers are positioned about 30 cm from the back wall, and are equally distanced from each other. They are slightly angled towards the listening position. All my walls and my floor is wood.

5. Honestly, if you need speakers worth more than 5500NOK to even notice a difference between a 2000NOK 5.1 channel receiver and a 20000NOK stereo amplifier, then it's definitely just BS in my opinion.

 

[davedotco]

Sorry for the late response.

Thing is, I went to listen to my friends Dali Helicon 800 mk2's, and I literally think my system sounds better. That's when I got super skeptical to all this just being a really sick placebo scam. Anyways, I just thought overall that my system sounded a lot better, especially the bass because I have a sub, which sounds lovely (SVS PB-2000). But I'll try and contact Abrahamsen and ask them if it's possible to get a home demo. Is there any way to prove that amps make a difference? Cause blindtests usually prove that it doesnt.

Err, no they don't.

I have never heard anyone who is serious about hi-fi say that.

+1

It never ceases to amaze me that many people simple can not get their heads around the concept that, under certain, strictly controlled conditions amplifiers (power amplifiers really), really do all sound the same but when you replace these conditions with a number of 'real world' systems in equally 'real world' situations, they don't.

It's really not that hard to understand.

 

[CnoEvil]

I can only pass on my experience over many years.

If you can't get a good improvement for your budget, you are right to be guided by what you are hearing.

 

[matt49]

ri

It never ceases to amaze me that many people simple can not get their heads around the concept that, under certain, strictly controlled conditions amplifiers (power amplifiers really), really do all sound the same but when you replace these conditions with a number of 'real world' systems in equally 'real world' situations, they don't.

It's really not that hard to understand.

Yes. I'm intrigued though by what 'real world' conditions will show up the differences between amps.

I've bought some kit for testing amps: an accurate multimeter for level matching and a high-quality switching box that'll enable instantaneous switching between two amps into a pair of speakers. I fancy doing some testing sometime over the summer. Anyone interested?

*scratch_one-s_head*

 

[rainsoothe]

Schiit Modi - bottleneck spotted. Also, if you can't hear differences, that doesn't mean they aren't there. But good for you, it will save you some buck ^^

 

[nissen1502]

Schiit Modi - bottleneck spotted. Also, if you can't hear differences, that doesn't mean they aren't there. But good for you, it will save you some buck ^^

See, thing is, even if it's bottlenecking, it still doesn't make any sense at all. It would make sense if it sounded different but not to my expectations, but it doesn't sound different at all. Thing is, if the amp makes a difference, you will hear a difference if you only switch out the amplifier, whether it's worse or better doesn't matter when asking if amps make a difference.

 

[fr0g]

A little update.

I've decided not to buy a stereo amplifier because it seems like marketing ******** and placebo. I am borrowing my friends Hegel H200 and it sounds almost exactly the same as my Denon AVR-X500. It doesn't even have significant volume difference. With the Hegel costing 10x more I expected to actually hear a difference without sitting for hours barely hearing some stuff that I'm not sure is different or not compared to my Denon.

So after reading what might be wrong, I've found multiple blind tests which all prove that it makes no significant difference, so I've decided to go for a surround receiver with good room correction and probably upgrade to 5.1 sometime, but as for now, only stereo. Could you guys recommend a good room correction? I'm not interested in hearing "It sounds better" because in my experience, it doesn't. Speakers sound different. As for DACs, I don't know if they sound different as I haven't got anything to compare my Schiit Modi too, or the inbuilt DAC in my Denon. But so far they all sound pretty much the same. The only reason I would have a Hegel H200 over a Denon AVR-X500 is the bragging rights. And it looks nice.

Edit: And iQ speakers. I'm stupid for not checking this, but it seems your company sell Abrahamsen gear, so yeah, marketing. This is a really sad moment for me, because I actually really love music and care a lot about how it sounds. I guess I'll just stick to buying good speakers.

+1

I have a pair of Dali Ikon 6 in use. They have been run from a Lyngdord SDAI 2175, an Arcam A80 and now a Yamaha RX V667.

In all honesty at normal volumes they sound equal whichever amp I use.

The advantage the expensive one (Lyngdorf) had was power on tap. That amp was a beauty and would drive them to breaking point without a sweat.

The Arcam would drive them very nicely up to a certain point then would show signs of strain when I wanted to party. The Yamaha drives them loud enough. The speakers remain a constant.

I think the right choice is a good AV receiver to be honest. I think there is far too much Hifi snobbery against them.

 

[CnoEvil]

Schiit Modi - bottleneck spotted. Also, if you can't hear differences, that doesn't mean they aren't there. But good for you, it will save you some buck ^^

See, thing is, even if it's bottlenecking, it still doesn't make any sense at all. It would make sense if it sounded different but not to my expectations, but it doesn't sound different at all. Thing is, if the amp makes a difference, you will hear a difference if you only switch out the amplifier, whether it's worse or better doesn't matter when asking if amps make a difference.

IME. All a better amp will do, is show up any inadequecies in the source.

 

[drummerman]

Blind testing ... does anyone actually do any of that?

How boring.

However, I also have a Sony STR DB930 in another system and it is one heck of a stereo amplifier but it is not built down to a price such as newer entry and mid priced AVReceivers which have weeny power supplies and wildly flowered up power ratings to draw buyers in.

 

[tonky]

Sounds very interesting Matt49 - whereabouts are you? - I'm east mids - leicester area.

cheers tonky

 

[CnoEvil]

I think the right choice is a good AV receiver to be honest. I think there is far too much Hifi snobbery against them.

I don't think that is necessarily true. Most people compare both and then spend money (or not) based on what they hear.

I wouldn't dream of calling you an inverted snob for having arrived at your conclusions.

 

[davedotco]

ri

It never ceases to amaze me that many people simple can not get their heads around the concept that, under certain, strictly controlled conditions amplifiers (power amplifiers really), really do all sound the same but when you replace these conditions with a number of 'real world' systems in equally 'real world' situations, they don't.

It's really not that hard to understand.

Yes. I'm intrigued though by what 'real world' conditions will show up the differences between amps.

I've bought some kit for testing amps: an accurate multimeter for level matching and a high-quality switching box that'll enable instantaneous switching between two amps into a pair of speakers. I fancy doing some testing sometime over the summer. Anyone interested?

*scratch_one-s_head*

Awkward impedences that cause different amplifiers to behave differently.

Sensitivity ratings that might require a more powerful amplifier, similarly more dynamic material or just higher volumes used may be too much for the lesser amplifier.

And, strangely, the way that some amplifiers appear to 'encourage' the use of higher volume levels, thus subjectively improving resolution, timing etc.