Laying bookshelf speakers on their side

[RobinKidderminster]

The Gurus claim 3x sound pressure than typical 15in driver - from a 6.9in cone. Remarkable or rubbish? I have absolutely no experience of these speakers so take my comment with a pinch of salt or fairy dust.

Seem not able to supply in uk. Installation instructions are interesting tho

 

[DocG]

I heard them a couple of years ago. They sound like much bigger speakers indeed, and have good dynamics. But I like my music more refined than what they delivered (though that may have been due to the dealer's less than ideal listening room). If at all possible, the OP should hear them for himself.

But as you say, they seem to be having supply issues in the UK...

 

[hg]

They referred to "pressure factor" not pressure. What matters to SPL is the product of surface area and stroke to give the volume of air displaced and the radiation efficiency. The cone is stated to be a 4" in the specification not a 6.9" and so it is a bit small for a desk speaker and quite unsuitable for main speakers at reference levels.

I don't know about rubbish but it looks very expensive for what it appears to be.

 

[TrevC]

Works OK but other speakers with similarly aligned drivers don't. Magic! *dash1*

 

[DocG]

They referred to "pressure factor" not pressure. What matters to SPL is the product of surface area and stroke to give the volume of air displaced and the radiation efficiency. The cone is stated to be a 4" in the specification not a 6.9" and so it is a bit small for a desk speaker and quite unsuitable for main speakers at reference levels.

I don't know about rubbish but it looks very expensive for what it appears to be.

I suppose you mainly listen to the specs and the scientific background of your gear. And that's fine.

Others listen to what the thing sounds like. You should try that for a change too!*air_kiss*

PS: "a bit small for a desk speaker"? A 17.5 L cabinet?

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Quite agree Doc. Tho comparing a 4in (evidently) driver with a 15in (x3) driver seems impossible physics. An academic argument agreed - if they do sound great then who cares - maybe something wrong with the German translation.

 

[DocG]

Quite agree Doc. Tho comparing a 4in (evidently) driver with a 15in (x3) driver seems impossible physics.

That is a severe case of marketing hyperbole, obviously... But they caught your attention, didn't they? Marketeer's mission accomplished! *yes3*

It is the use of a Helmholz-resonator that extends the bass here. It doesn't come near what three 15" drivers can do, but as a solution for bass-craving people with little space available, it's as good as it gets IMO.

 

[Vladimir]

Helmholz-resonator

DIY Helmholz-resonator

 

[hg]

PS: "a bit small for a desk speaker"? A 17.5 L cabinet?

It is not the cabinet that makes the sound (or at least it shouldn't be) but the driver. Even though you do not understand the physics have you really not picked up from experience how loud a 4" driver can successfully play bass in a room?

 

[hg]

Ben, the Revel C208 looks the ideal configuration and from a reliable manufacturer but it is twice the budget. Similar to the Gale GS401 posted earlier which is unfortunately a speaker from the 70s.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

I hope I wasnt responsible for sidetracking this post.. I think maybe O-level physics demonstrated here is not the whole story. I agree Doc that the marketing department have to work hard but personally, odd claims are the biggest turn off for me.. These speakers claim 20/30hz (different models) - I am reluctant to believe that for a 4in driver. I hope the OP continues to get further suggestions

 

[DocG]

PS: "a bit small for a desk speaker"? A 17.5 L cabinet?

It is not the cabinet that makes the sound (or at least it shouldn't be) but the driver. Even though you do not understand the physics have you really not picked up from experience how loud a 4" driver can successfully play bass in a room?

I didn't get the part on how loud the OP wants to listen. I remember something about 'low listening levels', but I might be mistaken.

Your suggestions are more helpful to the OP though (twice the budget or 40+ years old) so I'm out of here.

 

[BigH]

PS: "a bit small for a desk speaker"? A 17.5 L cabinet?

It is not the cabinet that makes the sound (or at least it shouldn't be) but the driver. Even though you do not understand the physics have you really not picked up from experience how loud a 4" driver can successfully play bass in a room?

I didn't get the part on how loud the OP wants to listen. I remember something about 'low listening levels', but I might be mistaken.

Your suggestions are more helpful to the OP though (twice the budget or 40+ years old) so I'm out of here.

But you have to listen at reference levels or you won't hear the music as its intended.

I think 4" drivers are plenty big enough for desktop speakers.

 

[DocG]

PS: "a bit small for a desk speaker"? A 17.5 L cabinet?

It is not the cabinet that makes the sound (or at least it shouldn't be) but the driver. Even though you do not understand the physics have you really not picked up from experience how loud a 4" driver can successfully play bass in a room?

I didn't get the part on how loud the OP wants to listen. I remember something about 'low listening levels', but I might be mistaken.

Your suggestions are more helpful to the OP though (twice the budget or 40+ years old) so I'm out of here.

But you have to listen at reference levels or you won't hear the music as its intended.

I think 4" drivers are plenty big enough for desktop speakers.

Music is important to me and I just love hearing that big sound (especially at lowish volumes).

Which, together with the size and positioning requirements, reminds me of the Gurus -- which I have heard personnally. Who are we to tell someone he has to listen at reference levels?

The fact they're not available in the UK is another matter, of course...

 

[Frank Harvey]

Who are we to tell someone he has to listen at reference levels?

"But you must watch your movies at Reference Level, otherwise you're not hearing it as Zach Snyder intended."

"But my tinpot TV manufacturer manufactured tall boy 5.1 sound system can't go loud enough to wake the budgie up!"

"Doesn't matter - turn it up, fool!"

 

[benmarks]

Annoyingly I just left a response but the system spammed me out of my own thread!

Thanks again for your contributions everyone. I'm sure it's all good natured banter on the part of the folks who disagree so vehemently!

So I’ve learned nothing definitive in terms of the physics / acoustics of it all. How about a direct question.

What if I lay ATC SCM 11 speakers on their side on my bookshelf. Will the resulting sound be bigger, brighter and better (especially at low and medium volumes) than my Monitor Audio RX1s? On stands I’m sure the answer would be yes. But replacing the MAs in the bookshelf (sturdy and robust but nonetheless a bookshelf) with the ATCs?

Thanks again for your thoughts.

And re your advice, I think the Gurus pose too much of a supply problem. And the Revels are too far out of budget.

 

[davedotco]

Annoyingly I just left a response but the system spammed me out of my own thread!

Thanks again for your contributions everyone. I'm sure it's all good natured banter on the part of the folks who disagree so vehemently!

So I’ve learned nothing definitive in terms of the physics / acoustics of it all. How about a direct question.

What if I lay ATC SCM 11 speakers on their side on my bookshelf. Will the resulting sound be bigger, brighter and better (especially at low and medium volumes) than my Monitor Audio RX1s? On stands I’m sure the answer would be yes. But replacing the MAs in the bookshelf (sturdy and robust but nonetheless a bookshelf) with the ATCs?

Thanks again for your thoughts.

And re your advice, I think the Gurus pose too much of a supply problem. And the Revels are too far out of budget.

Probably not.

The ATCs are far 'better' speakers than the Monitor Audios but not by sounding "bigger, brighter" as you put it.

They have lower distortion, are more refined and have deeper cleaner bass though on the downside they have a pretty low sensitivity so sounding "bigger, brighter" is not going to happen.

Small speakers of any quality will not give of their best on a shelf, that positioning will limit their capabilities and, by and large, the more money you throw at the issue the bigger the dissapointment will be.

Speakers designed to make the best of such a situation do exist, but they are rare. The obvious solution at the sort of price we are looking at would be the Neat Iota. As someone who has, over the years, been required to make setups work in such conditions, I would say they are an obvious choice. Don't be put off by their diminutive size.

 

[DocG]

I think limiting your search to sealed speakers is a sensible decision. Ported designs won't work well, unless they were specifically designed for use close to the wall or on a shelf (Wilson Audio Duettes, though rear-ported, are exactly what you're looking for, except for their very steep price sticker *shok*).

Apart from the Iotas, I would also suggest the Anthony Gallo Stradas. They're bass-light, but as you have a subwoofer, that shouldn't put you off.

In any case, spot a dealer, explain your situation and the solution you have in mind, ask his advice, do the necessary demos (preferably with your own amplifier). Narrow it down to 2 or 3 candidates, and by all means, organize a home demo.

 

[hg]

The configuration of the Revels was suggested, not the speakers themselves, as a solution to the original requirement for big preferably sealed passive speaker to fit on a deep 30 cm high bookshelf for a budget of £1800. The speaker that was tentatively suggested was the KEF R600C a coaxial ported 3 way. It uses only 2 x 6.5" woofers where there is room for 2 x 8" woofers which are likely to be needed to get sufficient bass extension and SPL with a sealed cabinet. It is rear ported but only 20cm high and so could work if your bookshelves are deep enough. But the configuration is not quite right unlike the Revel and Gale speakers.

You are now suggesting replacing your current ported 6.5" 2 way speaker with an expensive 6" sealed 2 way and laying it on it's curved side. This doesn't appear to be a solution to your original rather interesting requirement. I thought I knew what you were after earlier but it would seem not and so good luck with the search for whatever it is.