Law of Diminishing Returns (Upgrading from Budget Level to High End HI-Fi Components / Sytems)

[StevenKay]

Hi All

Law of Diminishing Returns (Upgrading from Budget to High End HI-Fi Components / Sytems)

Does the law of diminishing returns also apply to upgrading from budget level Hi-Fi components to pricier high end ones in terms of say each incremental £100 spent. Is it possible to quantify the gains in any way per £100 or per £1000 spent extra on costlier separates in trying to build a more satisfying and better performing system. For example upgrading from a £300 Amp to one costing ten times more (£3000), how much proportionate improvement (per cent) one can expect?

Has anyone tried to work out the benefits this way? Just wondering. Shall greatly appreciate inputs from those who have upgraded and cared to figure out.

Thanks

Steven Kay

 

[Mr Morph]

I don't think you can quantify it in the terms you're thinking about Steven. When I was working on London's Tottenham Ct Road, I heard many high end systems, many of which were no better than well engineered stuff you could have got for 20% of the price. You only have to take a look at any hi-fi magazines letters page to see people who have spent thousands and are still unhappy with the sound they are getting. It really comes down to the engineering of individual components, and how much thought has gone into producing them.

You can try to rationalise it in different ways. But you often find out the truth when you take a look inside these components. For instance, a look back in hstory at the Wadia WT3200, which was nothing more than a Marantz in different packaging? Hardly worth the asking price.

 

[the record spot]

With a lot of today's entry-level stuff, you're well on the way, and I mean 90%-worth. If it gets the music out to you in a way you like to hear it, job done. I'm not kidding myself you can get better speakers, or some good actives even better, but you can get to the heart of the music for a lot less now than you used to and to beat it, you'll need to spend a LOT more (and by the time you're looking at spending that wedge, you're questioning if it's worth the £10k you need to lash out to do it).

£600 gets you on the way for separates, probably less. Anyone thinking that doesn't get you just about there right now is kidding themselves to how good budget gear is these days.

 

[idc]

I agree with the record spot. Entry level hifi is 90% of the way there and some very expensive kit will maybe only a percent or two better.

 

[CnoEvil]

Please bare in mind, the answer (if there even is an answer) to this is personal and very subjective.

I will be making several basic assumptions:

- The system is well balanced - I've heard very expensive systems sound terrible.
- Room acoustics are good - can definately make an expensive system sound poor.
- The quality of the mains is good.
- The speakers are positioned correctly and suitable for the room.
- Cables are of a suitable quality to let the system shine.
- The choice of componants are some of the best in each catagory.

Other thoughts:

- Different "Classes" of amp (A,AB,D) sound completely different, and using the type you prefer, can skew the result (for the individual)
- A full range speaker (20hz - 20khz) is, by its nature, very expensive.
- An individual's ability to appreciate a change, and the value he's puts on achieving it varies.

Having never tried to put a value on this..until now..this is how I went about it -

I started trying to identify the various "sweet spots" as you go up the pricing ladder (starting at £1500). Then, I tried to see how much you would have to spend to get a substantial jump in sound quality.

What I found was that (IMO), you had to double the cost each time - but you generally don't get a doubling of the improvement.

Anyway, that's what I think, but it's by no means set in concrete.

 

[Anonymous]

I tend to agree with the above posts.

The point about engineering is a good one, but it goes further, and depends largely on the component type.

For example, standmount speakers win on size and convenience, but, if you want to hear the largeness of scale of an orchestra in full flight, you won't. No matter what the price, small drivers can't do grand, and they can't do bass. You can add a subwoofer, but you're still restricted by the size of the speaker and drivers.

Floorstanders will give you more of the sense of scale, and more of the bass. however, the bigger they are the better they do it, and the cost is, with the exception of some French brands, they don't have the speed of the floorstander.

Electrostatics and hybrid electrostatics such as Martin Logan are the most realistic speakers I've heard in a long while. Short of getting Norah Jones and piano in the room with you, they're the next best thing. At times, in fact, they're astonishing. But, if you like AC/DC , they just can't do it in the way other speakers can, and end up sounding a bit slow.

What more money buys you is better ability in the strengths, and better handling of weaknesses. It won't buy you perfection by any means. In other words, throwing money at good standmounts will pay in the sense you'll get better detail, more resolution, better soundstage. However, if the lack of bass is disturbing you, look elsewhere.

I'm also beginning to think, as a result of listening with the Martin Logans with amps ranging from 800€ to 3000€, that it is the speakers that make the difference in any system, and by a long way. Cetainly the expensive amp sounded wonderful, but the (comparatively) cheapy wasn't disgraced either.

The moral of this ramble is to decide the sound you're after, and buy accordingly. A 3000€ standmount is never going to beat a 1000€ floorstander if that's the type of sound you prefer. Diminishing returns don't set in so early if you've picked the right format for you.

 

[idc]

Please bare in mind, the answer (if there even is an answer) to this is personal and very subjective. I will be making several basic assumptions: - The system is well balanced - I've heard very expensive systems sound terrible. - Room acoustics are good - can definately make an expensive system sound poor. - The quality of the mains is good. - The speakers are positioned correctly and suitable for the room. - Cables are of a suitable quality to let the system shine. - The choice of componants are some of the best in each catagory. Other thoughts: - Different "Classes" of amp (A,AB,D) sound completely different, and using the type you prefer, can skew the result (for the individual) - A full range speaker (20hz - 20khz) is, by its nature, very expensive. - An individual's ability to appreciate a change, and the value he's puts on achieving it varies. Having never tried to put a value on this..until now..this is how I went about it - I started trying to identify the various "sweet spots" as you go up the pricing ladder (starting at £1500). Then, I tried to see how much you would have to spend to get a substantial jump in sound quality. What I found was that (IMO), you had to double the cost each time - but you generally don't get a doubling of the improvement. Anyway, that's what I think, but it's by no means set in concrete.

Are you sure about that? In a letter by Tom Nousaine (hifi engineer and writer) to The Audio Critic (Spring 1997) he describes an ABX test of the owner of a very high end system, where a Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 200w mono block amp was randomly changed with a Yamaha AX-700 100w integrated amp. In the first test the owner got 3 out of 10 identified, then 5 out of 10. His wife then got 9 out of 16 and a friend 4 out of 10 correctly identified. So long as the amp and speakers are suitable for each other in terms of power and sensitivity, it would appear you are better spending your money elsewhere.

(There have been other ABX tests of amps which have found they cannot be differentiated)

And don't get me started on cables.......

 

[CnoEvil]

I tend to agree with the above posts.

Good grief!....stiff drink required.....normal service will be resumed shortly. :O

 

[Anonymous]

I tend to agree with the above posts.

Good grief!....stiff drink required.....normal service will be resumed shortly. :O

Yeah, I know, the whole cable thing/hifi denies the laws of science gets to me. I'll shut up from now on.

 

[CnoEvil]

Are you sure about that? In a letter by Tom Nousaine (hifi engineer and writer) to The Audio Critic (Spring 1997) he describes an ABX test of the owner of a very high end system, where a Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 200w mono block amp was randomly changed with a Yamaha AX-700 100w integrated amp. In the first test the owner got 3 out of 10 identified, then 5 out of 10. His wife then got 9 out of 16 and a friend 4 out of 10 correctly identified. So long as the amp and speakers are suitable for each other in terms of power and sensitivity, it would appear you are better spending your money elsewhere.

(There have been other ABX tests of amps which have found they cannot be differentiated)

And don't get me started on cables.......

I think you can tell from the "tone" of my post that it is "my" subjective opinion.....that I am sure about.

If life was reduced to a series of ABX tests, what a dull place it would be. .....that is also my subjective opinion...are you so sure I'm wrong.

 

[CnoEvil]

I tend to agree with the above posts.

Good grief!....stiff drink required.....normal service will be resumed shortly. :O

Yeah, I know, the whole cable thing/hifi denies the laws of science gets to me. I'll shut up from now on.

Where's the fun in that!.....I can think of nothing worse than a forum full of sycophants!

 

[CnoEvil]

I agree with the record spot. Entry level hifi is 90% of the way there and some very expensive kit will maybe only a percent or two better.

Let me bring this arguement into your territory for a moment.

Given a good headphone amp, would you agree that an entry level headphone, say Sennheiser PMX80, would give you 90% of the performance of some hi-end ones, say Grado PS1000?

I think the same principal applies, it's just the sums of money change (headphones are a great way of getting a really high level of performance, for a reasonable outlay).

 

[chris hollands]

I heard a high end Naim demo on the top floor of the Bristol hifi show a few years ago , then went in the room next door where they were playing the entry level setup ,and it was like night and day !!

My point is , it is all relative , if you want an extra second on a 0-60 acceleration in a car , you have to pay for it.

Guess it comes down to wether you have the money or not.

 

[Andrew Everard]

And don't get me started on cables.......

...Or indeed on ABX testing again. I make that four attempts at re-igniting your pet subject now...

 

[Anonymous]

And don't get me started on cables.......

...Or indeed on ABX testing again. I make that four attempts at re-igniting your pet subject now...

that's kinda surreal, talking to a high ranking police officer in that way

 

[Andrew Everard]

that's kinda surreal, talking to a high ranking police officer in that way

As so often, xma, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

 

[Anonymous]

that's kinda surreal, talking to a high ranking police officer in that way

As so often, xma, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

get eventually will you wernad

 

[Anonymous]

that's kinda surreal, talking to a high ranking police officer in that way

As so often, xma, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

get eventually it will you'll wernad

 

[The_Lhc]

Pimms o'clock again Max?

 

[moosey]

And don't get me started on cables.......

...Or indeed on ABX testing again. I make that four attempts at RE=IGNITING YOUR PET subject now...

has he set fire to his cat on previous occasions

 

[idc]

And don't get me started on cables.......

...Or indeed on ABX testing again. I make that four attempts at re-igniting your pet subject now...

Only where relevant. If when only using your ears, hifi components cannot be reliably differentiated, you can show how dramatic and significant diminishing returns are.

 

[Craig M.]

Please bare in mind, the answer (if there even is an answer) to this is personal and very subjective. I will be making several basic assumptions:

- The system is well balanced - I've heard very expensive systems sound terrible.

- Room acoustics are good - can definately make an expensive system sound poor.

- The quality of the mains is good. - The speakers are positioned correctly and suitable for the room.

- Cables are of a suitable quality to let the system shine. - The choice of componants are some of the best in each catagory.

What I found was that (IMO), you had to double the cost each time - but you generally don't get a doubling of the improvement. Anyway, that's what I think, but it's by no means set in concrete.

pretty much my thoughts, too. apart from the mains - cables didn't change anything for me, and a pretty expensive filter robbed a bit of bass power with no improvement anywhere else. i also think if you're willing to venture into pro-audio, you can get much better sound per pound.

 

[CnoEvil]

pretty much my thoughts, too. apart from the mains - cables didn't change anything for me, and a pretty expensive filter robbed a bit of bass power with no improvement anywhere else. i also think if you're willing to venture into pro-audio, you can get much better sound per pound.

Thx Craig M

The reference to mains, was more about the quality coming through the socket, than specific cables - poor mains usually makes it's mark on the music.

 

[Andrew Everard]

has he set fire to his cat on previous occasions

Clumsy, since you had to capitalise part of the sentence out of context to make the joke. Must try harder...

 

[Andrew Everard]

Pimms o'clock again Max?

Don't be silly, xma has forsworn the demon drink. He told us so, so it must be true.