bigboss
Moderator
My rear speakers are placed at the top corner pointing downwards (see my home cinema pics) & it sounds fine.
All my speakers will be at ceiling height directed towards the listener. I am just exploring the best options around sound/acoustic panelling as the sound is more likely to travel through to the upstairs room with the speakers being so close to the ceiling.
The desciptors used for this range suggest that the numerous tweaters employed for each speaker gives a more controlled directional output towards the listener:
'Multiple tweeters have two major benefits, the ability to control the speaker's sound directivity and improved dynamic range.'
'Improved sound purity is achieved in the QUATTRO by the use of four closely spaced tweeters, allowing asymmetrical control of the QUATTRO's sound radiation pattern, whereby more sound energy is radiated directly toward the listener and less sound energy is radiated around the room. Each of the four QUATTRO tweeters get a different signal from the Asymmetrical Phased Field Focal Point Crossover, which allows the right speaker for example, to radiate more sound toward the listening position in the center of the room with less sound radiating toward the right wall and toward the ceiling and floor'.
Lets hope this is correct!
The desciptors used for this range suggest that the numerous tweaters employed for each speaker gives a more controlled directional output towards the listener:
'Multiple tweeters have two major benefits, the ability to control the speaker's sound directivity and improved dynamic range.'
'Improved sound purity is achieved in the QUATTRO by the use of four closely spaced tweeters, allowing asymmetrical control of the QUATTRO's sound radiation pattern, whereby more sound energy is radiated directly toward the listener and less sound energy is radiated around the room. Each of the four QUATTRO tweeters get a different signal from the Asymmetrical Phased Field Focal Point Crossover, which allows the right speaker for example, to radiate more sound toward the listening position in the center of the room with less sound radiating toward the right wall and toward the ceiling and floor'.
Lets hope this is correct!
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Paulsalford said:Hello WhatHI forum
I'm considering buying a set of these KK speakers for use in a dedicared home cinema room which is 3.7m x 2.8 m. Would the DXD808 sub & Q85 be a wiser choice for my small room or would the DXD12012 Q125 setup be fine?
The position of door in my room(in the corner where a rear speaker would be positioned) would make it difficult to use the room, without having a rear speaker high up above the door aiming down rather than at ear level if I was to use room the other way round(if you know what I mean?)
I only have a 50inch plasma so don't think I would be too close to the screen using the 2.8m length layout. but I havn't got a clue which layout acoustically would be best?
Can any of you experts please advise?
Welcome to the forum Paul
Oddly enough, my listening space is 3.7x2.8m!
From the old Miller & Kreisel speakers, I always felt the little 651's (which were similar size to the Q85) suited my sace more so then the larger S150's, especially for my sort of listening level which varied between -20/-25dB roughly, sometimes slightly higher. Having said that, there was never any question that the S150's sounded better, even in that small space. My only issue with the S150's in a small space was the detectability of the tweeters on the left or right side of the front baffle - you'll read a little more about that in what I'm about to post up in the next hour or so (I haven't forgotten jcshutts - I was writing it last night but fell asleep!). To summarise, it is your choice, but the Q85's will be fine in a smaller room and will be plenty loud enough, depending on the receiver you will be using.
Having rear speakers higher up than the fronts isn't really an issue. As mentioned, the front baffle of the TRiFX rear speakers and QFH front height speakers in the Quattro range are angled downwards, and the quad tweeter array directs sound more towards the listening position, so they can also be placed near side walls (ideal for smaller rooms) with treble reflection making things sound bright.
The DXD808 will be more than enough for a smaller room. Its quality exceeds the older and bigger MX350, depth isn't too different, and is far more 'invisible' too thanks to being built better and producing far less distortion than older models. One US review stated that the larger DXD12012 had the lowest distortion figures he'd ever measured for a sub.
What receiver will you be using Paul?
I haven't decided on a receiver yet but a friend advised either trying to source maybe a used Denon A1HD/Yamaha Z7 or if I was to buy new a Onkyo around the 1k mark.
If the Q125 and 12012 would not be over powering in my room I think I would prefer to go with them as maybe one day I may have use of a larger room. Would there be a large difference in sound quality using either room layout as it would probably be easier for me to have the rears on stands at ear level?
Thanks for your help.
If the Q125 and 12012 would not be over powering in my room I think I would prefer to go with them as maybe one day I may have use of a larger room. Would there be a large difference in sound quality using either room layout as it would probably be easier for me to have the rears on stands at ear level?
Thanks for your help.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
jcshutts said:
Well, they're running in quite nicely, both at work and at home (on loan). Will I be changing to them at home? Those that know me will know that I was a strong advocate of Miller & Kreisel back in the day, and there was no way I would've moved to anything else for movie soundtracks, regardless of price. Since about 2010, I've been trying to find a hi-fi speaker range that could be a good compromise for AV and music, with a little more emphasis on having some of the main M&K qualities. After a few tries, I found most of what I was looking for in the LS50, and I would strongly recommend them (and will continue to do so) to anyone who wants a single speaker package to vividly portray music and movie soundtracks. I always knew that there was still a few aspects of the LS50's performance that didn't measure up to the M&K's, but that can be out down to the nature of the speaker, and it is probably something that hi-fi speakers will never recreate properly. I just wanted to make the clear on that front before I'm accused of switching to "the next best thing". I love the LS50's, and if the KK's hadn't have emerged, I would continue to use them, probably for quite some time.
Moving on.
To address your question regarding music playback, this has been vastly improved over his older M&K designs. With the S150, I found that the KEF Q300 produced a much better performance making the S150's sound lifeless and flat, even though the S150's had more detail and a more 'upfront presentation'. Just how he has managed to improve things this much I have no idea, but the better built cabinets obviously help as these speakers draw no attention to themselves at all - they're solid and add no colorations that are detectable by the human ear (not mine anyway). The fact that they're all sealed cabinets means room boundaries aren't an issue. The new tweeter for the Quattro range is a new pro version of his old pro tweeter found in his S5000THX speaker, which has been designed and built from the ground up. There's no edginess, no brightness, just smooth, detailed treble that remains the same even when used at Reference level.
In connection with this, the only other issue I had with the S150 was with the vertical tweeter line array which was situated either on the left or right hand side of the cabinet, depending on whether it was a left, centre, or right hand speaker. I could always detect which side that line array was on, which wasn't an issue for the left and right, but for me, it was with the centre. This was my first major concern with the Q125C centre speaker as I've been used to a point source with KEF's UniQ array, and as the KK's HF Quad Array is on its left hand side. I fully expected to detect that these were on the left. At first, I could a little, but now they've run in it seems to have settled, and I've listened very closely to dialogue in various films and I've struggled to hear the issue. If this had still have been an issue, I probably would've gone for the Q85 to avoid it. I can only assume that the drivers are better integrated - having four tweeters allows them to reach much deeper than a single tweeter can manage. This means that the mid/bass cone doesn't have to reach up as high (probably to frequencies that it isn't too good at). Whatever it is down to, driver integration is excellent.
I'm currently listening to Nine Inch Nails' The Downward Spiral, and the detail level is a full on assault of the senses! There's just so much going on and you can hear everything. There's been a few songs that I have heard words I have never understood, including a track called Rolling, which I never actually knew the title of, and you could only ever hear her sing 'Roll', bit that it sounded like roll. But now it is plain as day as to exactly what she is singing. I've also heard voices in songs I never knew was there! (No, I'm not crazy! Yet). It has been mentioned that the Quad Array would 'smear' the image, losing pinpoint accuracy, but having come from KEF's UniQ, if this was an issue, I would notice it - there's certainly no issue regarding imaging - for stereo use, there's a pinpoint central image which is as good as I've heard from any speaker.
Various tracks from Boards Of Canada show just how revealing the speakers are of overdubs, and also show their imaging qualities perfectly. Being a small sealed speaker, there's no room boundary effects, no port effects, and no effects from deep internal bass waves (because the sub deals with them) to affect the stereo imaging, leaving the speakers to produce a solid three dimensional soundstage. Fast panning effects are just that, and sounds that appear from speaker to speaker sound as fastens precise as headphones. Mr. Scruff's Trouser Jazz album makes for some interesting listening too.
I do feel that the subs have their part to play in how good the speakers can sound. With a crossover point of 80-100Hz, a sub with good performance and low distortion higher up the range is needed, and there's not too many subs around that are good enough above 60-70Hz as most are designed to match ported speakers.
As with music, dialogue via the Quattros is crystal clear no additional effect from the cabinet, and therefore draw no attention to themselves whatsoever. With five KK's working together, the soundfield effect is seamless. Anyone familiar with older models will be able to appreciate just how much better they are in this area. And I've missed gunshots! One thing the M&K's could do far better than any hi-fi speaker was gunshots. None of the boom, just impact - the kind of impact that makes you flinch. Awesome.
Since having the KK's, I've also noticed that movies with mediocre soundtracks sound much better. I've Ben trying to get my head around this, but I think it is down to a lot of hi-fi speakers being a little too recessed/warm in the midrange, and some speakers trying to produce too much bass, which overshadows mid and treble detail. The mediocre sounding films sound that way because many speakers are adding their "warmth" to the proceedings. The KK's don't have that warmth due to being a sealed satellite design - you just hear what is there. This makes what seems to be a mediocre soundtrack sound more defined and punchy, and it was something I noticed with the Skynet edition of Terminator 2.
Watching a film like David Fincher's Se7en, there's a lot of atmosphere in Howard Shore's dark and haunting soundtrack, which adds much to the movie, as does the surrounding sounds of the hustle and bustle of New York. This movie is a test as far as dialogue is concerned, which the KK's pass admirably. The scene where they pay a visit to John Doe, the resulting chase/gunfight, and their search of his apartment shows just how much detail is available from these speakers that hi-fi speakers can only hint at. I'd also recommend the Criterion Edition of Fincher's The Game, which has a near field home theatre mix (as well as the original theatrical mix), which is excellent (other than a couple of scenes). Bear in mind it is Region A though.
The Incredibles sounds amazing. Lovely clean dialogue, impact where it is needed, and the bit where he is sneaking into Syndrome's base via the monorail sounds amazing. When he two guards look up to see the monorail pod hurtling towards them, it sounds like a bus has landed on the room! All effortless as well. I'm hoping WHF will review these as they sound stunning, and are easily better than the S150's - and to think that these are only the second range up in the range of four just leaves my mouth watering as to what's to come!
Both at work and home, I've found that these speakers work great without room EQ, although I would still usually recommend EQ'ing for sub/subs, even though I'm not using any EQ at all at the moment. We've had films running all day every day, and the Audiolab 8200x7 power amp didn't even get hot, so either it is a decent, stable power amp, or these Quattros are easier to drive than older M&K/MK models. Now that they're running in, I'll hopefully be trying them with lower spec integrated receivers to see how well they cope. I'm sure the liked of Pioneer's SCLX86 should drive them fine, it'll be interesting to see 'how low we can go' as far as driving them is concerned, and what effect a cheaper receiver will have on what these speakers have to offer.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
JohnHolmes said:
I never owned the SS150's (at the time I stuck with my M&K S55s) but my colleague did, who then changed to the MK Sound S140T's. He recently sold them and took some TRiFX home last week - I'll ask him how he's getting on and post back
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Yes, the centre does come with the stand, hence the slightly higher price compared to the front left and right.
FrankHarveyHiFi said:Paulsalford said:
Welcome to the forum Paul
Oddly enough, my listening space is 3.7x2.8m!
Now there's a coincidence!
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
spiny norman said:FrankHarveyHiFi said:Paulsalford said:
Welcome to the forum Paul
Oddly enough, my listening space is 3.7x2.8m!
Now there's a coincidence!
I've just double checked to make sure I didn't make any mistakes - its actually 3.7x2.9. An extra inch goes a long way
Have you tried bi-amping the Q125s David? If so, worth doing if you have spare channels available?
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
JohnHolmes said:
I was quite surprised when I unboxed them to find they're were bi-wireable/bi-ampable. I'm assuming it is because these use four HF units and that they reach down much deeper than conventional speakers (down to 1250Hz) that this feature has been added. Since setting them up in our demo room, I had forgotten about this feature! Unfortunately, the cables that are chased into our walls are two to four, so not proper bi-wiring, and prohibits us setting anything up bi-amped, but to be honest, kit like this sounds pretty amazing even when you don't bi-wire/bi-amp.
To answer your question, I haven't tried it yet, but when I set a pair up in our two channel demo room, I will try it. If you have the spare channels aavailable to bi-amp, then I'm sure it'll make a worthwhile difference, otherwise Ken wouldn't have included the feature.
Does a onkyo 818 would be capable enough to feed the ken kreisel speakers in 5.1 with dxd-808 sub.
thanks
thanks
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
couto27 said:
Well the sub isn't an issue as that should be chosen on the performance you require, but as far as the speakers are concerned, they seem fairly easy to drive. Of course, like all well designed speakers, their performance will rely somewhat on the partnering amplification. I haven't tried them with an 818 yet as we sold ours off a while ago when we found out we couldn't get any stock for a month or so. There are claims around the internet that the 818 will drive more demanding speakers fine, so based on their opinions, it should have no problem with the Quattro range.
I haven't had time yet to try them with a more budget amplification as we've been running them in on pre/power combos. I won't be able to try anything in the next couple of weeks as I'm preparing for an open day and I'm quite happy with how they're sounding with the existing amplification. After that day though, I'll try a few amps out - I think the nearest one I have to an 818 is the Pioneer SCLX56.
David, did you have the open day for the range? was there much interest? It would be nice to hear from any customers that have bought a set up and what their experiences are of the sound and setting them up??
Is there any news on the detail around the new range coming up? will the 150 replacements be of a similar price to the old ones or are they likely to be more expensive do you think?
Is there any news on the detail around the new range coming up? will the 150 replacements be of a similar price to the old ones or are they likely to be more expensive do you think?
Hi JC
The open day is on the 27th April i believe. I've had my Q125's a few weeks now and they are a good step up from the M&K 850's I upgraded from. Biggest improvement for me is with music, believe what David says, they are great musically as well as with movies! I'm really pleased with them, Ken is back and on form, can't wait to find out what else he has in store for us.
The open day is on the 27th April i believe. I've had my Q125's a few weeks now and they are a good step up from the M&K 850's I upgraded from. Biggest improvement for me is with music, believe what David says, they are great musically as well as with movies! I'm really pleased with them, Ken is back and on form, can't wait to find out what else he has in store for us.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
jcshutts said:
As already mentioned, it is next Saturday. I wasn't expecting as much interest as we normally get with our open days as it hasn't been as widely promoted, only really on AVF (I don't think WHF like that sort of thing
). I'm glad it will be a small event though, as it allows me to do some 'closed door' demos, which is better than people just wondering in and out of the room all day.To be honest, most purchasers so far haven't been via forums - as we're about 25 years old and dealt with the old Miller & Kreisel since its launch in the UK (around 1994), we have quite a database of M&K users who have shopped with us for a long time who are switching over, as many of their M&K systems are now 5-15 years old - things improve over time. As the new speakers have only been out for five weeks, it'll take time for opinions to appear, but rest assured, they will.
I've had a few small details that hasn't been mentioned, but I'm afraid I can't mention them - don't worry though, only a week or two to wait
As far as the direct S150 replacements go, who knows what the price will be. Obviously they won't be too close to the Quattros (about £1500/pair), so my guess might be something like £2.5k per pair. This might seem a bit high for an S150 replacement, but bear in mind that the Quattro Q125 exceeds the performance of the S150 for third less, so a direct S150 replacement is going to be another step forward again. Then again, they might be priced at about £2k per pair like the older S150's! All that is a pure guess on my part though, as prices are never revealed until closer to the launch.
All that has been stated is the following:
We can safely assume that Quattro Slim are a slimline version of the current Quattro, there are already photos of the Duos out there, and the Trios will utilise three HF units. I've not idea what form the Quattro Minis will take, but I'm assuming they'll still use four HF units, otherwise they wouldn't be called Quattros! The lifestyle ones will be interesting...
It will be I interesting to see what's being launched.it may be a toss uup between the more expensive units and 5.1 or the 125s with 7.1. Wonder what will sound better
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
jcshutts said:
With how good the Q125's are, it might be that the next model up might not sound any better, it could be more of a power handling upgrade, as some speakers suit much larger rooms than others, and others are better suited to smaller rooms.
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