PJ1200 - above all: enjoy yourself. Enjoy your LS50 and ADM demos. If you really like one of them, buy them. If you don't that's fine. Keep looking and trying other stuff until you find something you like enough to buy.
-
When should you upgrade your hi-fi? How to control ‘upgradeitis’
plastic penguin
Well-known member
lpv said:
So based on that hypothesis my Leema, if made in the far east, would only cost £700. That's totally irrelevent because the poster in question has a 4k amp, with a worst case scenario, match £1600 speakers. There's still a large disparity gap, eh?
I'm in the process of auditioning lots of gear recently as I'll be completing my system once I'll find what I'm looking for.
so far on my list electronics are more expensive than speakers and what I've realized during the sessions: speakers will always appreciate better amplification/ pre amp... so looking for £800 - or £1600 if made in England - speakers for £4k amp is absolutely fine..
so far on my list electronics are more expensive than speakers and what I've realized during the sessions: speakers will always appreciate better amplification/ pre amp... so looking for £800 - or £1600 if made in England - speakers for £4k amp is absolutely fine..
He said so on another thread. I think it was a Musical Fidelity M6500i, but don't quote me I may have the model number wrong.
if the ls50's were made in the uk the cost of these speakers would more than likley double, after extensive tests with these speakers i would recommend looking at amps around the £1000 - £2000 mark, i would disagree that the heed is a good amp to pair with these speakers, at very low volumes its ok but when pushed the bass becomes bloated and overblown.
like everything its all down to personal tastes which can only be gauged by demoing the products in your own listening enviroment, if thats not possible then an instore demo with a good dealer is priceless.
like everything its all down to personal tastes which can only be gauged by demoing the products in your own listening enviroment, if thats not possible then an instore demo with a good dealer is priceless.
Lpv, the op doesn't have a £4000 amp, that's someone totally diffrent on another thread. You've also got your calculations screwed up. The amp was made in China, so it's a £4000 amp with £800 speakers.
You've a weird way of working things out. Two amps selling at say £1000 each, one made in China and the other in the UK are probably the same quality. The difference is that the company outsourcing to China is making more money. Also, made in the UK mostly means assembled in the UK. The LS50s are made in China, but the AVIs use Indonesian drivers and amps either made from far eastern components or, in the case of their digital amp, a prebuilt module apparently slightly customised, so there's not a lot of difference.
I run my £ 1300 speakers with a £800 amp. Tried them with a fancy Densen amp , a Unico (?) and an electrcompaniet. Direct comparison, stuff all difference. Only difference was when I tried an amp not powerful enough.
You've a weird way of working things out. Two amps selling at say £1000 each, one made in China and the other in the UK are probably the same quality. The difference is that the company outsourcing to China is making more money. Also, made in the UK mostly means assembled in the UK. The LS50s are made in China, but the AVIs use Indonesian drivers and amps either made from far eastern components or, in the case of their digital amp, a prebuilt module apparently slightly customised, so there's not a lot of difference.
I run my £ 1300 speakers with a £800 amp. Tried them with a fancy Densen amp , a Unico (?) and an electrcompaniet. Direct comparison, stuff all difference. Only difference was when I tried an amp not powerful enough.
I have owned both - and both are very good for the money.
However, if the LS50 are fed by a decent amp (ample power 60w plus I'd say) then there is no contest. The LS50 are way ahead in every aspect. Detail, texture, tone, bass, staging etc.
They are great speakers, I just can't handle the looks, and also they need more space than the AVI.
I have heard the LS50 sound bad on the wrong amp in the wrong room though. The AVI are less fussy.
It's hard to beat the AVI for the money.
However, if the LS50 are fed by a decent amp (ample power 60w plus I'd say) then there is no contest. The LS50 are way ahead in every aspect. Detail, texture, tone, bass, staging etc.
They are great speakers, I just can't handle the looks, and also they need more space than the AVI.
I have heard the LS50 sound bad on the wrong amp in the wrong room though. The AVI are less fussy.
It's hard to beat the AVI for the money.
Look forward to reading your impressions.
I agree that the performance of the LS50s will depend on what level of amplification you put behind them. I can't speak for the ultimate potential of the LS50s, but high quality amplification can do wonderous things for even cheap speakers.
When I sold my B&W 685s, the shop tested them out on the end of a top of an Accuphase E-460 (I think) and equivalent level of Accuphase CD player, snf the speakers sounded mighty impressive. I'd certainly never heard anything like it from those speakers. Complete overkill? Definitely, but in a head to head comparison, good quality electronics should give the LS50s the edge (not taking into account personal preferences in how the sound is presented).
I agree that the performance of the LS50s will depend on what level of amplification you put behind them. I can't speak for the ultimate potential of the LS50s, but high quality amplification can do wonderous things for even cheap speakers.
When I sold my B&W 685s, the shop tested them out on the end of a top of an Accuphase E-460 (I think) and equivalent level of Accuphase CD player, snf the speakers sounded mighty impressive. I'd certainly never heard anything like it from those speakers. Complete overkill? Definitely, but in a head to head comparison, good quality electronics should give the LS50s the edge (not taking into account personal preferences in how the sound is presented).
audiokid said:
Very fair response, and very interesting to hear from someone who has actually owned both.
I would think active operation would give the AVI product a possible performance edge over the KEF design in some areas, but that the driver and cabinet design of the KEF, would give it the performance edge over the AVI product, in others.
Cheers
JMac 8)
bigboss
Moderator
techboy
Well-known member
techboy said:
I owned 9T a few years back, and 9RS more recently. Never heard the Scanspeak versions.
bigboss said:
Just an estimation, bigboss. I once heard the LS50 on a basic Cyrus integrated which had loose bass and lacked dynamics. I think it was less than 50w. However, further demos on 60w and 80w Naim amps, they were fantastic.
bigboss
Moderator
Consider this:
1) Yamaha RX-V375 has 70W per channel amplification for 2-ch. So does it offer better amplification than a stereo amplifier rated at 50W per channel?
2) Pioneer LX87 has 220W per channel amplification. Yet Anthem MRX710 is superior at half the amplification.
Wattage rating is very misleading and often abused by manufacturers. There are a lot more factors that determine the quality of an amplifier, and wattage is one of the weaker indicators.
1) Yamaha RX-V375 has 70W per channel amplification for 2-ch. So does it offer better amplification than a stereo amplifier rated at 50W per channel?
2) Pioneer LX87 has 220W per channel amplification. Yet Anthem MRX710 is superior at half the amplification.
Wattage rating is very misleading and often abused by manufacturers. There are a lot more factors that determine the quality of an amplifier, and wattage is one of the weaker indicators.
techboy
Well-known member
Hi Audiokid
I hope you could answer a few questions
1. How do you find the AVI ADM 9RS vs other actives vs other separates in the sub 1500 pounds considering you need to buy the speakers, amp, dac, pre and cables? Sound signature preference aside.
2. How big an improvement do you consider 9RS over 9T?
3. Which amp and dac did you try with KEF LS50 which you really liked? Total cost of the setup?
Thank You so much!
Aakshey
I hope you could answer a few questions
1. How do you find the AVI ADM 9RS vs other actives vs other separates in the sub 1500 pounds considering you need to buy the speakers, amp, dac, pre and cables? Sound signature preference aside.
2. How big an improvement do you consider 9RS over 9T?
3. Which amp and dac did you try with KEF LS50 which you really liked? Total cost of the setup?
Thank You so much!
Aakshey
Hi, the period between the 9T an RS was quite some time, so it was hard to report the difference with any accuracy. Perhaps the RS had more bass and a more balanced sound, but I remember liking both.
When I listened to the RS in the demo room, I preferred them to a Leema amp with Spendor A3 and also the PMC twenty (smallest models).
However, I preferred the LS50 with Naim. But saying that, the AVI remain as the best value. It would be hard to beat them for the money. You could possibly get a decent amp / Dac for £450 to partner with the LS50 but I'm not sure what's available.
When I listened to the RS in the demo room, I preferred them to a Leema amp with Spendor A3 and also the PMC twenty (smallest models).
However, I preferred the LS50 with Naim. But saying that, the AVI remain as the best value. It would be hard to beat them for the money. You could possibly get a decent amp / Dac for £450 to partner with the LS50 but I'm not sure what's available.
OK; well I’m back from a very interesting couple of listening sessions that I held on Saturday.
To cut straight to the point, I decided to go for the AVI 9.1s, which were second hand and selling for £650 in the end.
I went to listen to the Kefs first, which I put through my Sony amp (to clarify, I don’t own a £4k amp!!!??) and fired up what ended up being our ‘benchmark’ track, which was Daft Punk’s Get Lucky, through a 3.5mm jack in the analogue inputs. This sounded ‘ok’. That is all I can really describe it as. I was certainly not blown away by the sound, its presentation or clarity, but then it was through a 14 year old amp, using ‘normal’ iTunes ripped music played through an analogue lead!
Next up was the Marantz all in one system. The same track was provided via airplay, but using a lossless (it may have been FLAC actually) rip of the song, via the pretty impressive Marantz app on an iPad. This stepped up the quality and reproduction of the song by some margin, perhaps unsurprisingly. There appeared much more clarity from the track – with instruments being better identified and the lyrics and voices having what I would describe as a better soundstage. Whilst we didn’t turn the track up to crazy volumes the Marantz seemed to handle the speakers pretty well. We also heard the same track via a ‘master’ rip – or HD Audio. Whilst this sounded marginally better; to my ears, it was not as big a step up as I was expecting. Naturally the salesman thought it was night and day, but to my ears, I struggled to notice any meaningful difference.
Finally, we had the Naim up – with the UnitiLite. This was probably the best combo of the day. The Naim really helps provide a very ‘forward’ soundstage and seemed to add yet more clarity to the track. It was probably only incremental improvements, but I can see why we all keep striving for these margins! The Kefs sounded excellent and I could happily have spent my money on this combo, if I’d had the cash!
Aside issue, but the Kefs do look lovely. I could quite happily have them in my living room and would probably enjoy looking at them almost as much as the sound they produce. I think if people have the money to drive them as well as good ripped music (or CDs) then they will delight!
We then headed off to listen to the AVIs.
First up were the newer ‘RS’ versions of the ADM9s. To be totally honest, these sounded a little disappointing compared to the Kefs. Sound appeared to be a little muffled if I’m honest, and the clarity that I enjoyed from the Kefs/Naim combo just wasn’t there. Again, I was playing the DP track via a 3.5mm connection at iTunes ripped bit rate (256Kps I think?) so it was probably totally unfair. I did take a CD in and played a few tracks via a dvd transport that the dealer had plugged in and this sounded better, but I ended up feeling that perhaps the music I listen to was not getting the best out of the AVIs!! (odd I know!). The dealer played some Jamie Cullum through them and he sounded A LOT better (and I’m not a massive fan!). The separation that I was looking for was there, with a very good soundstage – the music seemed to be there in front of me rather than coming from two speakers. I was impressed.
We then swapped to the older 9.1s that he had available on behalf of a customer who was selling them. Again, they sounded great. Perhaps there was better low down control on the RS’ but on the whole, I struggled to tell the difference. My wife was also with me, and agreed that whilst they sounded slightly less composed as the newer model, not £600 worth! I think I can understand why people who liked quite heavy and imposing bass would want the sub attached to these – the RS’ do appear to give slightly better low down ‘ummph’! I found both the AVIs to be very neutral in their presentation. The music seemed ‘honest’ if that makes sense.
We went away for lunch to talk about the options and decided to take the plunge for the 9.1s. For £650 they really did deliver. I got them home and set them up, albeit badly, because I have no stands (some CD FS104 Signatures in black ordered!) and they sounded even better to my ears! I was conscious that the first dealer had a more similar ‘room set up’ to what I had at home, which is hard floors and stone walls. The AVI dealer had carpet and curtains around the walls, which I presume were there to help soften the sound a little and minimise ‘artificial’ ‘bouncing’ of sound.
I’ve been listening to them ever since, with a variety of music, burned at various bit rates, played through my Airport Express. The AVIs do appear to handle the different bit rates better than the Kefs do, in my opinion. An iTunes downloaded version of DPs Get Lucky sounded better than via the Kefs on my old Sony amp – which I’d hope it would given it is benefitting from the AVIs on-board DAC, but the difference (whilst there) between ‘poor’ quality music and lossless tracks isn’t quite as noticeable. It has, however, made me want to re-rip the CDs that I may have burnt at lesser rip-rates!!
I’m happy. Really happy. I’ve got some cracking speakers for £650 with good power and a built in DAC. To get anything sounding similar would have cost over double that. I can’t complain at all. I’m hoping the stands, when they arrive, will allow better positioning and hopefully a better soundstage and maybe more bass (could be wishful thinking) because my only criticism is that the bass could be a bit more forthcoming.
One thing I have learnt, is that bit rate quality makes the most difference to my ears. Any of the combos would have given improvements on what I already had, but the differences between them all is quite minor to my ears at least. I noticed most difference when the speakers were fed decent quality music. As such, the best advice I can give is to make sure you do whatever system you have justice! You can have five-figure systems and if you’re feeding it low-bit-rate music, it will never show its potential.
And for anyone thinking of buying either the AVIs or the Kefs – do so with confidence. Both excellent speakers. The second hand price of the 9.1s was just too good to pass up for me. If I had £,2500, I’d probably go with the Kef/Naim combo. Sounded very very impressive.
I hope to just enjoy my music now though – without worrying about which part to ‘upgrade’!!
Hope the above helps others.
To cut straight to the point, I decided to go for the AVI 9.1s, which were second hand and selling for £650 in the end.
I went to listen to the Kefs first, which I put through my Sony amp (to clarify, I don’t own a £4k amp!!!??) and fired up what ended up being our ‘benchmark’ track, which was Daft Punk’s Get Lucky, through a 3.5mm jack in the analogue inputs. This sounded ‘ok’. That is all I can really describe it as. I was certainly not blown away by the sound, its presentation or clarity, but then it was through a 14 year old amp, using ‘normal’ iTunes ripped music played through an analogue lead!
Next up was the Marantz all in one system. The same track was provided via airplay, but using a lossless (it may have been FLAC actually) rip of the song, via the pretty impressive Marantz app on an iPad. This stepped up the quality and reproduction of the song by some margin, perhaps unsurprisingly. There appeared much more clarity from the track – with instruments being better identified and the lyrics and voices having what I would describe as a better soundstage. Whilst we didn’t turn the track up to crazy volumes the Marantz seemed to handle the speakers pretty well. We also heard the same track via a ‘master’ rip – or HD Audio. Whilst this sounded marginally better; to my ears, it was not as big a step up as I was expecting. Naturally the salesman thought it was night and day, but to my ears, I struggled to notice any meaningful difference.
Finally, we had the Naim up – with the UnitiLite. This was probably the best combo of the day. The Naim really helps provide a very ‘forward’ soundstage and seemed to add yet more clarity to the track. It was probably only incremental improvements, but I can see why we all keep striving for these margins! The Kefs sounded excellent and I could happily have spent my money on this combo, if I’d had the cash!
Aside issue, but the Kefs do look lovely. I could quite happily have them in my living room and would probably enjoy looking at them almost as much as the sound they produce. I think if people have the money to drive them as well as good ripped music (or CDs) then they will delight!
We then headed off to listen to the AVIs.
First up were the newer ‘RS’ versions of the ADM9s. To be totally honest, these sounded a little disappointing compared to the Kefs. Sound appeared to be a little muffled if I’m honest, and the clarity that I enjoyed from the Kefs/Naim combo just wasn’t there. Again, I was playing the DP track via a 3.5mm connection at iTunes ripped bit rate (256Kps I think?) so it was probably totally unfair. I did take a CD in and played a few tracks via a dvd transport that the dealer had plugged in and this sounded better, but I ended up feeling that perhaps the music I listen to was not getting the best out of the AVIs!! (odd I know!). The dealer played some Jamie Cullum through them and he sounded A LOT better (and I’m not a massive fan!). The separation that I was looking for was there, with a very good soundstage – the music seemed to be there in front of me rather than coming from two speakers. I was impressed.
We then swapped to the older 9.1s that he had available on behalf of a customer who was selling them. Again, they sounded great. Perhaps there was better low down control on the RS’ but on the whole, I struggled to tell the difference. My wife was also with me, and agreed that whilst they sounded slightly less composed as the newer model, not £600 worth! I think I can understand why people who liked quite heavy and imposing bass would want the sub attached to these – the RS’ do appear to give slightly better low down ‘ummph’! I found both the AVIs to be very neutral in their presentation. The music seemed ‘honest’ if that makes sense.
We went away for lunch to talk about the options and decided to take the plunge for the 9.1s. For £650 they really did deliver. I got them home and set them up, albeit badly, because I have no stands (some CD FS104 Signatures in black ordered!) and they sounded even better to my ears! I was conscious that the first dealer had a more similar ‘room set up’ to what I had at home, which is hard floors and stone walls. The AVI dealer had carpet and curtains around the walls, which I presume were there to help soften the sound a little and minimise ‘artificial’ ‘bouncing’ of sound.
I’ve been listening to them ever since, with a variety of music, burned at various bit rates, played through my Airport Express. The AVIs do appear to handle the different bit rates better than the Kefs do, in my opinion. An iTunes downloaded version of DPs Get Lucky sounded better than via the Kefs on my old Sony amp – which I’d hope it would given it is benefitting from the AVIs on-board DAC, but the difference (whilst there) between ‘poor’ quality music and lossless tracks isn’t quite as noticeable. It has, however, made me want to re-rip the CDs that I may have burnt at lesser rip-rates!!
I’m happy. Really happy. I’ve got some cracking speakers for £650 with good power and a built in DAC. To get anything sounding similar would have cost over double that. I can’t complain at all. I’m hoping the stands, when they arrive, will allow better positioning and hopefully a better soundstage and maybe more bass (could be wishful thinking) because my only criticism is that the bass could be a bit more forthcoming.
One thing I have learnt, is that bit rate quality makes the most difference to my ears. Any of the combos would have given improvements on what I already had, but the differences between them all is quite minor to my ears at least. I noticed most difference when the speakers were fed decent quality music. As such, the best advice I can give is to make sure you do whatever system you have justice! You can have five-figure systems and if you’re feeding it low-bit-rate music, it will never show its potential.
And for anyone thinking of buying either the AVIs or the Kefs – do so with confidence. Both excellent speakers. The second hand price of the 9.1s was just too good to pass up for me. If I had £,2500, I’d probably go with the Kef/Naim combo. Sounded very very impressive.
I hope to just enjoy my music now though – without worrying about which part to ‘upgrade’!!
Hope the above helps others.
PJ1200 said:
Thanks for the feedback... It's pretty much in line with what I'd expect based on all the reviews I've read of those products... And is certainly useful to me...
Similar threads
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram