Just for your information...

[steve_1979]

I don't want to bring out a heated discussion, but this weekend I did a listening test, to determine differences between the Musical Fidelity V-DAC MKII and my two CD players, Marantz CD6000Ki and Marantz CD5000.

Both my CD players and V-DAC MKII are connected to a Marantz PM7200 amp via the same type and brand interconnects, Wireworld OASIS 5. I compared the V-DAC (connected to my iMac) with both CD players and my Marantz CD5000 connected to the V-DAC in comparison with CD5000's own DAC and Marantz CD6000 KI.

I evaluated using Denon AH-D5000 headphones and Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo speakers.

I didn't hear any differences.

None.

Zero.

Conclusion?

All CD players sound the same? To conclude this I have to listen to every single CD player out there, which would be ridiculous, but I don't think I will ever upgrade my source again, and when my cd players and DAC break down I probably will buy the cheapest CD player/DAC out there.

I've done similar tests and had the same results as you.

 

[CnoEvil]

I have connected my iMac via Nuforce Impulse USB cable. Formats are MP3 256 KB/ps, AIFF and Spotify Unlimited (160 KB/ps) I have set the V-DAC mKII to upsample to 88.2 kHz.

Apart from this set-up I also compared the V-DAC directly with my Marantz CD5000's DAC, by connecting the V-DAC with my CD5000 via a digital interconnect, I was able to switch directly between CD input (CD5000) and AUX (V-DAC). I honestly wasn't able to hear any differences. I am not trolling and it certainly isn't my intention to insult anyone who spends a lot of money with this hobby, though I'm aware I have insulted some...

As far as I'm concerned, what you hear, is....well.....what you hear; and you should be free to report it, without having to look over your shoulder.

 

[tounra]

Wait, there was a difference I noticed and still notice, not in comparing the V-DAC with my CD players, but between Spotify and iTunes. Spotify sounds different, somewhat darker en fuller and not just the streaming file, but the iTunes library played by Spotify as-well.

And yes I have unchecked "Set the same volume levell for all tracks" in Spotify and unchecked "Sound Enhancer" in iTunes.

This is funny because earlier I had compared iTunes alternatives like Pure, Vox, Fidelia etc. and I didn't hear differences, well apart from a subtle difference in sound between Fidelia and iTunes, but I felt it was just a sound enhancment in Fidelia which was easily mimicked by equalizing iTunes by turning the 4kHz slider down a bit. But in retrospect I think the sleek looks of the Fidelia app made me listen differently...

 

[Overdose]

I have connected my iMac via Nuforce Impulse USB cable. Formats are MP3 256 KB/ps, AIFF and Spotify Unlimited (160 KB/ps) I have set the V-DAC mKII to upsample to 88.2 kHz.

Apart from this set-up I also compared the V-DAC directly with my Marantz CD5000's DAC, by connecting the V-DAC with my CD5000 via a digital interconnect, I was able to switch directly between CD input (CD5000) and AUX (V-DAC). I honestly wasn't able to hear any differences. I am not trolling and it certainly isn't my intention to insult anyone who spends a lot of money with this hobby, though I'm aware I have insulted some...

The insult is merely percieved. You have only stated what you have found to be true. If I too had invested large sums of money in equipment, I'd feel the need to believe its superiority, otherwise, what would I have paid all that money for?

 

[Overdose]

Wait, there was a difference I noticed and still notice, not in comparing the V-DAC with my CD players, but between Spotify and iTunes. Spotify sounds different, somewhat darker en fuller and not just the streaming file, but the iTunes library played by Spotify as-well.

And yes I have unchecked "Set the same volume levell for all tracks" in Spotify and unchecked "Sound Enhancer" in iTunes.

This is funny because earlier I had compared iTunes alternatives like Pure, Vox, Fidelia etc. and I didn't hear differences, well apart from a subtle difference in sound between Fidelia and iTunes, but I felt it was just a sound enhancment in Fidelia which was easily mimicked by equalizing iTunes by turning the 4kHz slider down a bit. But in retrospect I think the sleek looks of the Fidelia app made me listen differently...

Is it possible Spotify has a built in EQ? You could always compare the file outputs using something like Audacity (If you could be bothered).

Sounds like a job for steve_1979.

 

[DocG]

Was it Stereophile mag. which said that the Sony PS1 was as good as a $6,000 cd player?

Here is Art Dudley's review of the PS1. He really likes it! And John Devore too, apparently... And John Atkinson.

 

[matt49]

I honestly wasn't able to hear any differences. I am not trolling and it certainly isn't my intention to insult anyone who spends a lot of money with this hobby, though I'm aware I have insulted some...

I certainly wasn't in the slightest insulted, and as I said in my earlier post I found the OP's report interesting.

My point about file formats was a pretty basic one. I wanted to know whether the files on the iMac were lossy or lossless, which in my experience does make a difference. The answer to the question, which the OP has now graciously and fully delivered, helps me to understand his original post better. Job done.

 

[MajorFubar]

Maybe there were more differences in the 'old days' than there are now.

I have two CD players at my disposal, both currently unused. One is a 1989 Technics SL-P777 and the other is a Marantz CD63 mkII KI from about ten years later. The difference in their sound is instant and obvious. No ABX test required. The Technics has a sound which although very detailed can be forceful, cold and clinical. The Marantz is much more rounded, natural and less tiring to listen to. In short the Marantz sounds like it was manufactured after CD technology matured, but the decade-older Technics sounds like it was made while they were still getting there.

 

[Overdose]

My point about file formats was a pretty basic one. I wanted to know whether the files on the iMac were lossy or lossless, which in my experience does make a difference. The answer to the question, which the OP has now graciously and fully delivered, helps me to understand his original post better. Job done.

But what would you have been able to gleen in either case of lossy or lossless files, other than whatever was used sounded the same as the CDs?

 

[Macspur]

Was it Stereophile mag. which said that the Sony PS1 was as good as a $6,000 cd player?

Here is Art Dudley's review of the PS1. He really likes it! And John Devore too, apparently... And John Atkinson.

Must be true then!

 

[DocG]

Was it Stereophile mag. which said that the Sony PS1 was as good as a $6,000 cd player?

Here is Art Dudley's review of the PS1. He really likes it! And John Devore too, apparently... And John Atkinson.

Must be true then!

Do you mean: "Must be true then! :O" or "Must be true then! :rofl: " or maybe even "Must be true then! :doh:"?

 

[Overdose]

Was it Stereophile mag. which said that the Sony PS1 was as good as a $6,000 cd player?

Here is Art Dudley's review of the PS1. He really likes it! And John Devore too, apparently... And John Atkinson.

Must be true then!

No, it must be their opinion, which is all any subjective review ever is.

 

[Overdose]

Was it Stereophile mag. which said that the Sony PS1 was as good as a $6,000 cd player?

Here is Art Dudley's review of the PS1. He really likes it! And John Devore too, apparently... And John Atkinson.

Must be true then!

Do you mean: "Must be true then! :O" or "Must be true then! :rofl: " or maybe even "Must be true then! :doh:"?

I reckon the latter.

 

[tounra]

The only differences I ever heard were because of different circumstances, poorer headphones-out socket, cheaper or better amp etc.

I sometimes miss my cheap old AKAI portable cassette/cd player. The sound was overly smooth and round, with a very narrow soundstage, and overblown bass. It was the only 'system' I had that time, and it was then when I discovered classical music. Obviously the AKAI didn't have the resolution and detail to do the (mostly) audiophile recording I bought any justice, but I could turn the volume (while listening through cheap Sony headphones) really loud, without ever sounding nasty. It didn't have any glare or graininess in the sound, but it didn't have any soundstage or definition as well.

When I got my Marantz amp and CD player after that I was amazed and dissapointed at the same time. In came a huge soundstage, defintion, texture, but gone was the easy going nature of making every single CD sound smooth and acceptable. I got this sensation back (without losing detail and texture) when I got my Denon AH-D5000 headphones...well agreed, not quite, the Denons are too neutral to really cover up poor recordings, but the grain and glare is mostly gone.

 

[matt49]

But what would you have been able to gleen in either case of lossy or lossless files, other than whatever was used sounded the same as the CDs?

Fair question. I was interested in the comparison between (a) iMac files via V-DAC and (b) the CDPs via V-DAC. I wanted to establish whether the files on the iMac were equivalent to the files being played by the CDPs. Given the OP's answer, I'm happy because his experience conforms to my expectations.

All in all I'm not surprised that the OP found no difference between the various set-ups as the components seem broadly of the same level.

But I'm sure we can all agree that it's always more interesting when your expectations are confounded ..

 

[tounra]

Same level?

If one is to believe audio magazines than the performance of the V-DAC must be vastly superior to the Marantz CD5000 the least. The CD5000 costed me 250 euro in 2003, the V-DAC MKII 270 euro, this year and this is a DAC only, without a transport.

Every year new products come out and according to group tests they beat older products, well the V-DAC had 10 years to beat my Marantz CD5000...

Now for the CD6000KI. It was reviewed in the same period as the CD5000. The CD5000 got avarage reviews ('a souped up Philips', 'a rough and ready sound') The CD6000Ki got very good reviews ("a full blooded Marantz"). Do I hear any differences? Nope.

 

[steve_1979]

I can't emphasise enough that these results should be taken with a large pinch of salt though. Any differences between the Spotify and CD versions may only be due to the recording software on my PCs sound driver.

 

[MajorFubar]

Which albums did you use Steve? There's at least four different masters knocking about for Dancing Queen, all with different compressions and EQ's. You wasn't to know, but you probably couldn't have picked a worse track lol

 

[matt49]

Same level?

If one is to believe audio magazines than the performance of the V-DAC must be vastly superior to the Marantz CD5000 the least. The CD5000 costed me 250 euro in 2003, the V-DAC MKII 270 euro, this year and this is a DAC only, without a transport.

Every year new products come out and according to group tests they beat older products, well the V-DAC had 10 years to beat my Marantz CD5000...

Now for the CD6000KI. It was reviewed in the same period as the CD5000. The CD5000 got avarage reviews ('a souped up Philips', 'a rough and ready sound') The CD6000Ki got very good reviews ("a full blooded Marantz"). Do I hear any differences? Nope.

Point taken: I suppose what I meant was that the MF V-DAC is a 'budget' DAC, retailing at £200. ('Budget' compared to the Audiolab M-DAC at £600 and then upwards to Benchmark, Naim and beyond ...) It may well be that the huge recent excitement about standalone DACs has made the market for them a bit frothy and has led to relatively ambitious pricing.

Also, in your comparison of prices you do need to bear inflation in mind.

But as I said, I'm not at all surprised that you found no difference between the SQ of these various pieces of kit.

 

[steve_1979]

Which albums did you use Steve? There's at least four different masters knocking about for Dancing Queen, all with different compressions and EQ's. You wasn't to know, but you probably couldn't have picked a worse track lol

Doh! :doh: I bet you're right there.

They were both off the 'Gold' album and the cover picture on Spotify is the same one as on my CD cover.

I've got the Stevie Wonder 'The Definitive Collection' CD here which is a 2002 version the same as the one on Spotify. Do you think the would ge a good choice to try?

 

[MajorFubar]

Doh! :doh: I bet you're right there.

They were both off the 'Gold' album and the cover picture on Spotify is the same one as on my CD cover.

There's two versions of those as well lol, an early version which possibly is your CD and the new version, probably what's on Spotify.

I've got the Stevie Wonder 'The Definitive Collection' CD here which is a 2002 version the same as the one on Spotify. Do you think the would ge a good choice to try?

Certainly worth a go mate!

 

[Rob.S.Esquire]

So what are the chances that you amp is the limitation here? Have you tried the Denon's with a dedicated headphone amplifier? You may find a world of difference.

I have 3 differect DACs connected between the same source, amp and speakers and they all have different charactaristics.We re talking here about just the DAC element with exactly the same source, digital, bit perfect copies of the original CD or DVD-A.

When it comes to the CD transport which is basically a physical platform that rotates an object, they should be able to get that right on a 20 quid CD player. You would be better off throwing away the CD part and concentrating on what makes a difference, the DAC part. I would nt be surprised if all of those 3 products you mentioned used the same DAC's, I mean texas instruments makes a large proportion of the chips out there.

Also I wold not bother conducting "tests" with any mp3 or Spotify content. You are just wasting your time. Do a serious comparison with the original CD and an identical copy WAV file ripped properly (most software will not do this right).

 

[the record spot]

Ah right, so you can spot the difference immediately, easily and obviously with a 320kbps rip and a CD or WAV file then?

 

[tounra]

So what are the chances that you amp is the limitation here? Have you tried the Denon's with a dedicated headphone amplifier? You may find a world of difference.

I have 3 differect DACs connected between the same source, amp and speakers and they all have different charactaristics.We re talking here about just the DAC element with exactly the same source, digital, bit perfect copies of the original CD or DVD-A.

When it comes to the CD transport which is basically a physical platform that rotates an object, they should be able to get that right on a 20 quid CD player. You would be better off throwing away the CD part and concentrating on what makes a difference, the DAC part. I would nt be surprised if all of those 3 products you mentioned used the same DAC's, I mean texas instruments makes a large proportion of the chips out there.

Also I wold not bother conducting "tests" with any mp3 or Spotify content. You are just wasting your time. Do a serious comparison with the original CD and an identical copy WAV file ripped properly (most software will not do this right).

Yep, I have a Musical Fidelity X-CAN 8. The differences between this amp and the headphones out of my Marantz amp and both cd players are minimal. A tiny amount of extra bloom because of the tubes used.

I have compared AIFF files as well and as said earlier, I made a direct comparison between the V-DAC and that of my CD player, using the same CD of course.

The DAC's used are different. Marantz CD5000 uses a Philips TDA1549, Marantz CD6000Ki: SM 872, and V-DAC: Burr Brown DSD1796

 

[Rob.S.Esquire]

320kbps ripped in high quality vs FLAC or WAV is trickier to spot but anything below 320 and the difference is noticable.

320 vs FLAC with a side by side switching between the two directly and there is a difference. Got my wife to assist with a blind test on this and I even tried it on her. Luckliy she is capable of putting up with a lot of nonsense and still has a sense of humour about it! 320 MP3 high quality is ok and would be acceptable, but would still rather get the 16/44.1 copy, or even better 24/96. And before you ask, there is no difference between 96 and 192 unless you have a super tweeter and a dog.

Last week I swapped outh a Burr Brown DAC with a Wolfson DAC on the NAD 375BEE and Focal Chorus floorstanders. My wife and her mother actually commented that there was a difference in sound without me even mentioning that I was mucking about with it. Totally difference balance between the top end and the mid bass between the two.

If you are happy with lossy formats and cannot hear the difference then good for you. You just saved yourself time and energy and dramatically increased your scope of media.