is surge protection needed ?

[Simon 13th note]

thanks but do you therefore think that a cd player, plugged in next to an integrated amplifier, can cause interference with the amplifier ?
(i'm guessing your answer is no but i would appreciate a more "technical" explanation as to why ?).

I think the way to look at it isn't to get bogged down in the technicality as there is a multitude of reasons as to why one person might be hearing something and another wont, and therfore whether any valid technical reason can be applied or not from it. I think this way of rationalising it is true with power bars. So if conventional wisdom is that common mode power supply noise from a CD player can find its way back into another component - everyone believes power supplies do this, if you cant hear it on changing a strip with conditioning then this is all academic. If a power bar saps dynamics for you but not another person and so on. It's better to be an experienced based audiophile on a number of products, not extrapolating on the technicality as to why you should hear it better (or not). That's always been my approach as the number of variables is just too hard to predict and one should always estimate products based on price v feature and SQ value. That's why Im more interested in what the products do then how you get there and if those reasons are valid ones.

 

[Al ears]

This thread has moved quite a way from the original question I feel but that question was asked for a reason.
Personally I would say no. In the UK I have never felt the need for surge protection on any of my equipment and the idea of adding another layer of potential complication into the set-up was the reason why.
Has anyone ever had their equipment damaged due to a surge being proven cause?
Not me anyway in all my years with hifi.
You can protect all you want but if the potential is so unlikely then that protection is simply a waste of money better spent on more music.....

 

[Gray]

This thread has moved quite a way from the original question I feel but that question was asked for a reason.
Personally I would say no. In the UK I have never felt the need for surge protection on any of my equipment and the idea of adding another layer of potential complication into the set-up was the reason why.
Has anyone ever had their equipment damaged due to a surge being proven cause?
Not me anyway in all my years with hifi.
You can protect all you want but if the potential is so unlikely then that protection is simply a waste of money better spent on more music.....

You've probably never needed a seatbelt Al.
If it were harmful or expensive, I wouldn't have it believe me.

 

[TrevC]

I think the way to look at it isn't to get bogged down in the technicality as there is a multitude of reasons as to why one person might be hearing something and another wont, and therfore whether any valid technical reason can be applied or not from it. I think this way of rationalising it is true with power bars. So if conventional wisdom is that common mode power supply noise from a CD player can find its way back into another component - everyone believes power supplies do this, if you cant hear it on changing a strip with conditioning then this is all academic. If a power bar saps dynamics for you but not another person and so on. It's better to be an experienced based audiophile on a number of products, not extrapolating on the technicality as to why you should hear it better (or not). That's always been my approach as the number of variables is just too hard to predict and one should always estimate products based on price v feature and SQ value. That's why Im more interested in what the products do then how you get there and if those reasons are valid ones.

So, to condense this a little, because you don't understand the technical aspects you are concentrating on placebo effects conjured up by your imagination.

 

[Simon 13th note]

So, to condense this a little, because you don't understand the technical aspects you are concentrating on placebo effects conjured up by your imagination.

I dont get drawn into that type of response, which is the stock response. I think people should appreciate that no two peoples experiences are similar, where they have different price of kit (which tends to perform differently) and experiences and conclusions must be drawn from what you experience at the same time the basic science. After all that's how they make HiFi - listening and measurements. When you drill people down you find out they come at it from different gear experience levels. Not that it matters - they either then think you are a snob, for which Im not - I like cheap performing gear as Ive been banging on about eg Node 2i performing to much pricier gear. Or alternatively they use the placebo card.

HiFi is complicated and armchair enthusiasts are fraught with danger too. There is a lot of ego and Im real enough to realise that the interplay of factors in hifi is not enough to condense it to singular reasons as to why you do things or not. That's why an experienced based approach works and loads of people like me for that!. The truth be told most people who profess all, often dont know what is going on. But who really cares. My retort to anyone who alleges placebo is to say what happens when the kit is expensive and rubbish? Im more into the results and the music and products to get there and a 'music first audiophile' approach rather than a 'technical first approach'.I test lots of combos of gear and spend weeks doing reviews sometimes! I run a website and have thought about this a lot, write articles about it and I understand the very human prejudices that exist in hifi.

 

[Al ears]

You've probably never needed a seatbelt Al.
If it were harmful or expensive, I wouldn't have it believe me.

I don't believe you can compare the two with the current level of driving on UK roads, the seatbelt is essential as it works in conjunction with other devices.
The question was is it an accessory or a necessity.
I believe it to be an accessory and therefore an unnecessary outlay whatever the cost.

 

[TrevC]

I dont get drawn into that type of response, which is the stock response. I think people should appreciate that no two peoples experiences are similar, where they have different price of kit (which tends to perform differently) and experiences and conclusions must be drawn from what you experience at the same time the basic science. After all that's how they make HiFi - listening and measurements. When you drill people down you find out they come at it from different gear experience levels. Not that it matters - they either then think you are a snob, for which Im not - I like cheap performing gear as Ive been banging on about eg Node 2i performing to much pricier gear. Or alternatively they use the placebo card.

HiFi is complicated and armchair enthusiasts are fraught with danger too. There is a lot of ego and Im real enough to realise that the interplay of factors in hifi is not enough to condense it to singular reasons as to why you do things or not. That's why an experienced based approach works and loads of people like me for that!. The truth be told most people who profess all, often dont know what is going on. But who really cares. My retort to anyone who alleges placebo is to say what happens when the kit is expensive and rubbish? Im more into the results and the music and products to get there and a 'music first audiophile' approach rather than a 'technical first approach'.I test lots of combos of gear and spend weeks doing reviews sometimes! I run a website and have thought about this a lot, write articles about it and I understand the very human prejudices that exist in hifi.

But you persist in commenting, and arguing, about technical matters without having the first idea about what you are talking about. Googling only gets you so far.Not only that you refuse to learn. The VDR thing is an example of that. Hifi is scientific. I admit I could not hear a dfference between, say, a low priced Behringer and an expensive Mackintosh with similar specs, or between different makes and prices of interconnects. I'm also willing to bet nobody can including you.

 

[TrevC]

I don't believe you can compare the two with the current level of driving on UK roads, the seatbelt is essential as it works in conjunction with other devices.
The question was is it an accessory or a necessity.
I believe it to be an accessory and therefore an unnecessary outlay whatever the cost.

I agree. Our mains supply is very good. It doesn't need conditioners, but a surge limiter is so cheap you might as well have one in case it helps during a lightning strike or something.

 

[Al ears]

But you persist in commenting, and arguing, about technical matters without having the first idea about what you are talking about. Googling only gets you so far.Not only that you refuse to learn. The VDR thing is an example of that. Hifi is scientific. I admit I could not hear a dfference between, say, a low priced Behringer and an expensive Mackintosh with similar specs, or between different makes and prices of interconnects. I'm willing to bet nobody can including you.

I think we have to be very careful in saying that because you cannot hear any differences then nobody can . If others believe they can and do then trying to bludgeon them into thinking there is no basis for this is somewhat unproductive.

 

[Al ears]

I agree. Our mains supply is very good. It doesn't need conditioners, but a surge limiter is so cheap you might as well have one in case it helps during a lightning strike or something.

You might well be right, and although I have a very healthy respect for lightning after being caught in a few electrical storms in the Alps, I don't believe my hifi is particularly vulnerable, although my phone line and router may be.
Perhaps I have been fortunate all these years but I restate that anything that isn't essential is a financial unnecessary.

 

[Simon 13th note]

I think we have to be very careful in saying that because you cannot hear any differences then nobody can . If others believe they can and do then trying to bludgeon them into thinking there is no basis for this is somewhat unproductive.

HiFi is not only scientific but it is not the be all and end all..... HiFi is a means to an end for music, lest us not forget. I'll hapilly hear the difference between a dCS Bartok Trev and a Cambridge Audio DAC Magic. And the dCS is absolutely terrific ! (.....if you have the right kit)

 

[Al ears]

HiFi is not only scientific but it is not the be all and end all..... HiFi is a means to an end for music, lest us not forget. I'll hapilly hear the difference between a dCS Bartok Trev and a Cambridge Audio DAC Magic. And the dCS is absolutely terrific ! (.....if you have the right kit)

By right kit do you mean ears different to TrevC's?

 

[Deleted member 188516]

I would like a technical explanation of how it could.:O)

i wouldn't know hence my question to you !

 

[Simon 13th note]

By right kit do you mean ears different to TrevC's?

If there are no differences in premium gear and budget (and even I have a limit btw - see my article ultra hifi destroys hifi) it's time to give up being into HiFi, as much as I wish more people were into it such the prices were mainstream. As HiFi is music and all HiFi is the same or premium to budget is, or we imply this, why bother being into hifi? beyond me.

 

[Deleted member 188516]

If there are no differences in premium gear and budget (and even I have a limit btw - see my article ultra hifi destroys hifi) it's time to give up being into HiFi, as much as I wish more people were into it such the prices were mainstream. As HiFi is music and all HiFi is the same or premium to budget is, or we imply this, why bother being into hifi? beyond me.

Ultra Audiophile HiFi Destroys Music - 13th Note HiFi Reviews

I discuss why I think all this eye wateringly priced HiFi is counter to music More

www.13thnote.net

 

[TrevC]

If there are no differences in premium gear and budget (and even I have a limit btw - see my article ultra hifi destroys hifi) it's time to give up being into HiFi, as much as I wish more people were into it such the prices were mainstream. As HiFi is music and all HiFi is the same or premium to budget is, or we imply this, why bother being into hifi? beyond me.

I was careful to say similar spec. Good amplifiers being available cheaply is a good thing surely, good hifi doesn't need to be expensive to have good sound. One 80 wpc low distortion amp with a flat response costing £200 and used within its power range is going to sound very similar to a £5000 one.

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I think we have to be very careful in saying that because you cannot hear any differences then nobody can . If others believe they can and do then trying to bludgeon them into thinking there is no basis for this is somewhat unproductive.

It's also strayed a long way from the original question - and into someone's oft-stated views on a completely different matter.

 

[Deleted member 188516]

It's also strayed a long way from the original question - and into someone's oft-stated views on a completely different matter.

as the thread starter i'd like to state i don't mind the "debate" that has flourished !

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

But then you're such a tolerant guy!

 

[Simon 13th note]

One 80 wpc low distortion amp with a flat response costing £200 and used within its power range is going to sound very similar to a £5000 one.

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

sincerely, you don't really believe this do you?

 

[bigboss]

In my case, if a system looks beautiful, it will sound beautiful to my ears. We can't underestimate the power of psychoacoustics.

Ten years ago, my wife bought me a Montblanc Meisterstück fountain pen. Absolutely beautiful to write with. Over the years, I've bought several fountain pens, ranging between £50 to £150 from several known brands: Pelikan, Pilot capless, Sailor, Platinum, TWSBI, Diplomat, Waterman, Lamy etc. Most of them beautiful to write with. The only pen that has still stayed with me (lost all the others) is the Montblanc. None gave me the pleasure of writing as Montblanc did. I ended up buying Montblanc Starwalker fountain pen on Saturday (was an impulsive purchase). It gives me the same pleasure as the Meisterstück.

With wireless earphones and headphones as well, I've bought cheaper ones from Amazon (SoundPEATS) which is actually really very good. But I prefer my Bose and Aftershokz for now. I am planning to buy B&O H95 because I know I'll love the sound and will treasure it. "Value for money" is very subjective. In my view, the true value of any product is the price you're prepared to pay for it. Most will say I'll get far better sound for a lot less. I know I will, but listening to music 🎧 is a wholesome sensory experience, not just hearing the sound.

 

[Friesiansam]

It's also strayed a long way from the original question

It's a forum, it's what happens...

 

[Friesiansam]

In my case, if a system looks beautiful, it will sound beautiful to my ears. We can't underestimate the power of psychoacoustics.

Ten years ago, my wife bought me a Montblanc Meisterstück fountain pen. Absolutely beautiful to write with. Over the years, I've bought several fountain pens, ranging between £50 to £150 from several known brands: Pelikan, Pilot capless, Sailor, Platinum, TWSBI, Diplomat, Waterman, Lamy etc. Most of them beautiful to write with. The only pen that has still stayed with me (lost all the others) is the Montblanc. None gave me the pleasure of writing as Montblanc did. I ended up buying Montblanc Starwalker fountain pen on Saturday (was an impulsive purchase). It gives me the same pleasure as the Meisterstück.

With wireless earphones and headphones as well, I've bought cheaper ones from Amazon (SoundPEATS) which is actually really very good. But I prefer my Bose and Aftershokz for now. I am planning to buy B&O H95 because I know I'll love the sound and will treasure it. "Value for money" is very subjective. In my view, the true value of any product is the price you're prepared to pay for it. Most will say I'll get far better sound for a lot less. I know I will, but listening to music 🎧 is a wholesome sensory experience, not just hearing the sound.

I can't imagine spending ₤100s on a pen of any type but, that's because arthritis means I get no pleasure from writing. As for headphones and headphone amps/DACs, I've reached the limit of what I'm prepared to spend, around ₤2200 and I'm pleased with the results and, the look and feel, especially the headphones, is pleasing too and, I now find myself actually listening to the music more and not analysing it, looking for imperfections. Value for money though? Hard to say, did cost over 2½ times as much as their predecessors and would have been a lot more but for a good deal on the amp/DAC.

 

[Deleted member 188516]

But then you're such a tolerant guy!

thanks !

 

[bigboss]

I now find myself actually listening to the music more and not analysing it, looking for imperfections.

You've got the nail on the head there. The pleasure of listening to music is obtained by not looking for imperfections.