Is it worth the money?

[plastic penguin]

Okay, I'm looking at upgrading my Pro-ject Xpression 1 soon, but now I'm dubious.

Having listened to the Electro CDP and the Arcam I'm struggling to hear a difference between a budget entry-level. Mrs. P, who has no bias towards one or the other, struggled also to hear a difference. Perhaps the Electro is perhaps slightly more cohesive... but I'm being over picky hear. How these reviewers can decide one CDP from another is beyond me.

This got me thinking: If I can't find (or hear) a significant difference between a £400 and £1200 CDP, will it be the same between a £200 turntable and £1000 spinner?

I know I'll have to dem but I thought I'd throw up (not literally) the conundrum.

By contrast, last week had my Alfa remapped. Only about 30 extra horses but you can feel it's more peppy and responsive. That cost me £250.

Over to you guys to slaughter my theory.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Okay, I'm looking at upgrading my Pro-ject Xpression 1 soon, but now I'm dubious.

Having listened to the Electro CDP and the Arcam I'm struggling to hear a difference between a budget entry-level. Mrs. P, who has no bias towards one or the other, struggled also to hear a difference. Perhaps the Electro is perhaps slightly more cohesive... but I'm being over picky hear. How these reviewers can decide one CDP from another is beyond me.

This got me thinking: If I can't find (or hear) a significant difference between a £400 and £1200 CDP, will it be the same between a £200 turntable and £1000 spinner?

I know I'll have to dem but I thought I'd throw up (not literally) the conundrum.

By contrast, last week had my Alfa remapped. Only about 30 extra horses but you can feel it's more peppy and responsive. That cost me £250.

Over to you guys to slaughter my theory.

if you can't hear a difference between those cd players i wouldn't bother! Don't change the source..change elsewhere in system? It's either not very revealing or the more expensive cd player isn't up to snuff! I can clearly hear the difference twixt my £400 and my £1100 machines..in fact it's night and day..

 

[chris_bates1974]

Is it possible to hear a TT that would be similar or the same to yours once upgraded? I would imagine that just becasue you can't hear any difference between the 2 CDPs, it doesn't necessarily mean you won't hear anything after changing the TT set-up.

When I switched my cart from the standard Ortofon OM5 to the 2M Red, the difference was huge, and that was just an £80 change. I'd be willing to bet that changing my CDP for one that cost £80 more when originally for sale wouldn't yield as stark a result.

 

[plastic penguin]

Is it possible to hear a TT that would be similar or the same to yours once upgraded? I would imagine that just becasue you can't hear any difference between the 2 CDPs, it doesn't necessarily mean you won't hear anything after changing the TT set-up.

When I switched my cart from the standard Ortofon OM5 to the 2M Red, the difference was huge, and that was just an £80 change. I'd be willing to bet that changing my CDP for one that cost £80 more when originally for sale wouldn't yield as stark a result.

My Pro-ject has been pimped with an upgraded cartridge. Immensely pleased with that since 2006. That's a good thing about TTs - they can be fettled.

 

[The_Lhc]

Okay, I'm looking at upgrading my Pro-ject Xpression 1 soon, but now I'm dubious.

Having listened to the Electro CDP and the Arcam I'm struggling to hear a difference between a budget entry-level. Mrs. P, who has no bias towards one or the other, struggled also to hear a difference. Perhaps the Electro is perhaps slightly more cohesive... but I'm being over picky hear. How these reviewers can decide one CDP from another is beyond me.

This got me thinking: If I can't find (or hear) a significant difference between a £400 and £1200 CDP, will it be the same between a £200 turntable and £1000 spinner?

I know I'll have to dem but I thought I'd throw up (not literally) the conundrum.

By contrast, last week had my Alfa remapped. Only about 30 extra horses but you can feel it's more peppy and responsive. That cost me £250.

Over to you guys to slaughter my theory.

if you can't hear a difference between those cd players i wouldn't bother! Don't change the source..change elsewhere in system? It's either not very revealing or the more expensive cd player isn't up to snuff! I can clearly hear the difference twixt my £400 and my £1100 machines..in fact it's night and day..

Read it again, it's not the CD player he wants to change, it's his turntable.

 

[plastic penguin]

Okay, I'm looking at upgrading my Pro-ject Xpression 1 soon, but now I'm dubious.

Having listened to the Electro CDP and the Arcam I'm struggling to hear a difference between a budget entry-level. Mrs. P, who has no bias towards one or the other, struggled also to hear a difference. Perhaps the Electro is perhaps slightly more cohesive... but I'm being over picky hear. How these reviewers can decide one CDP from another is beyond me.

This got me thinking: If I can't find (or hear) a significant difference between a £400 and £1200 CDP, will it be the same between a £200 turntable and £1000 spinner?

I know I'll have to dem but I thought I'd throw up (not literally) the conundrum.

By contrast, last week had my Alfa remapped. Only about 30 extra horses but you can feel it's more peppy and responsive. That cost me £250.

Over to you guys to slaughter my theory.

if you can't hear a difference between those cd players i wouldn't bother! Don't change the source..change elsewhere in system? It's either not very revealing or the more expensive cd player isn't up to snuff! I can clearly hear the difference twixt my £400 and my £1100 machines..in fact it's night and day..

Read it again, it's not the CD player he wants to change, it's his turntable.

Absolutely.

 

[keeper of the quays]

yes I see that..thankyou for pointing out the obvious! Think op mentioned if he couldn't hear difference between two cd players would upgrading his turntable make any difference? Think this the gist of the question..my response was why bother? Not unreasonable considering he can't tell the difference between a £400 and £1200 cd player..i would suggest change speakers

 

[keeper of the quays]

Granted some confusion? It isn't clear whether the op thinks a upgrade is worthwhile re turntable due to his hearing little difference between cd players or that difference in price between turntables may yield similar results to cd players listening experience!

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

Yes, cd players have nearly the same kind of sound and it's difficult to listen them apart from each other.

No Turntables don't have the same kind of sound and listen them apart can have variable results.

But why ?

CD uses digital extraction method and an a method of analogue conversion (sorry for my english) of the signal, that contains error correction. There is not a lot to make wrong there and even simpliest (cheap) designs are already doing the job well.

Turntables are exposed to lots of physical influences. They must turn regulary, that need a good isolation from current perturbations, clever build designs and good motors. For this and other reasons, they need a good platter too. Platter that will have an effect on his own resonances too. Add to that a good bearing, and, if possible, a good vibration protecion from outside influences ; the influence of the tonearm in the ability to track more accurately or vaguely (same goes for the shell), and that the shell itself could have different voicings and performances... It's a wide theme. And we must not forget that quality comes with a price. So, even a sturdy, regular shaped and perfectly weighted (sorry for my english) metal platter will cost you more than every complete chinese TT. *mail1*

But long phrases made short -> turntables will give you back what you are ready to invest in them.

But please, don't forget that a TT is an ensemble of components and that a good Turntable will be able to give back his full potential only if he's paired with good sparring partners (without wasting crazy sums of money... we understand ourselves on this point I believe).

...and the list is long...*preved*

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Hi Pp.I recently have changed everything in my turntable set up.going through various upgrades from around November.first was project expression (I've had it from 2004)going from ortofon om10 to the 2m blue.This upgrade has yielded the most significant upgrade to date.I then changed turntable to the 2xperience classic (still 2m blue).Could barely tell the difference between the two turntables,It wasn't until I changed from the project phono box se to the dino +changing to the moving coil cartridge that another decent jump in performance was gained.I just added the nc psu a week or so ago and again very small gains....but I was expecting that,starting to get to the inevitable diminishing returns law I'm afraid.So I reckon just a turntable upgrade isn't really enough it has to be a few to really make it worthwhile,although I think in hindsight sticking a £600 2m black on that turntable could end your urge to change it.Although if your like me you'd think you were missing something with a flagship cart and budget table.At the end of the day a great turntable usually comes with a good tonearm (or none at all,you add your own good unit)which in turn can get the best results from better and more demanding cartridges,but then you need the good phono stage to make the good cart work properly.lol.

 

[Al ears]

Hi PP.

I'd be a bit wary of upgrading the actual deck. Turntables are there simply to spin discs and upgrading them does not always yield an improvement.

Upgrading the cartridge normally always yields improvement. Therefore my advice would be forget changing the deck and just buy the best cartridge you can afford and fit it to what you currently have.

Just my two pennies worth mind you.

 

[chebby]

My Pro-ject has been pimped with an upgraded cartridge. Immensely pleased with that since 2006.

You've had the upgraded cartridge since 2006?

You'll probably need to get a new stylus fitted ASAP!

(Most recommendations are to replace a good quality stylus every 1000 - 1500 playing hours which you must have notched up by now.)

I had a Goldring 1042 between 1996 and 2007 and bought two replacement styli for it during that period.

 

[bigfish786]

when I upgraded it was small improvements that I noticed.

The speed stability was better.

separation was more evident.

Less sibilance.

Deeper bass.

Music sounded more alive.

These things aren't going to smack you in the face, but you will hear them over time .

cumulatively giving you a higher quality sound and presentation.

 

[plastic penguin]

My Pro-ject has been pimped with an upgraded cartridge. Immensely pleased with that since 2006.

You've had the upgraded cartridge since 2006?

You'll probably need to get a new stylus fitted ASAP!

(Most recommendations are to replace a good quality stylus every 1000 - 1500 playing hours which you must have notched up by now.)

I had a Goldring 1042 between 1996 and 2007 and bought two replacement styli for it during that period.

Not the same cartridge. You can't change the stylus on a ClearAudio unfortunately, so I tried a Ortofon Red and now I've gone back to ClearAudio Concept cart.

I might try an external power supply and see how that improves things.

 

[BigH]

The differences between cd players these days is subtle I have found. But turntables are different, even changing the mat change make a difference. Changing cartridge certainly will. I would have a demo, see if you think changing makes a difference. I think the Xpression now is about £600? So really its not a £200 player you have now. Making other changes to your existing turntable maybe better value for money. How about a MC cartridge? Better phono stage? Acrylic platter?

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

+1 to what bigfish said. Every upgrade I've made was maybe a small improvement but overall it's a better listening xperience and that bass is definitely digging deeper, also I did the upgrade thing fairly quickly and probably didn't get through as much of my music as I probably should have to get a proper assessment of each improvement. Also pride of ownership comes into play as expensive turntables mostly look handsome on a kit rack or wall support, especially those gryo decks among others. I'd love to get my hands on one of those even if they didn't do anything sonically to my system. Lol.

 

[Al ears]

+1 to what bigfish said. Every upgrade I've made was maybe a small improvement but overall it's a better listening xperience and that bass is definitely digging deeper, also I did the upgrade thing fairly quickly and probably didn't get through as much of my music as I probably should have to get a proper assessment of each improvement. Also pride of ownership comes into play as expensive turntables mostly look handsome on a kit rack or wall support, especially those gryo decks among others. I'd love to get my hands on one of those even if they didn't do anything sonically to my system. Lol.

Oh it would.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

One day Al, one day I'll get one. In fact it probably what I should be saving for instead of a cart. Hmmmmm?

 

[Al ears]

One day Al, one day I'll get one. In fact it probably what I should be saving for instead of a cart. Hmmmmm?

Hold that thought. Just think of those nice shiny spinning weights.

Some crop up second hand occasionally.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

one went on flee bay just the other day for just over 1200 quid an se model with a tecno arm i believe.

 

[plastic penguin]

So what cartridge will usurp my ClearAudio?

In the past I've been a big fan of Goldring; Grado have a good reputation as do Nagos. Or do go down the MC route?

 

[bigfish786]

nagaoka would be the first on my list. i really like mine.

after that, maybe an ortofon 2m bronze, or blue.

finally, the much praised denon dl103r, if you fancied an mc cart.

 

[BigH]

So what cartridge will usurp my ClearAudio?

In the past I've been a big fan of Goldring; Grado have a good reputation as do Nagos. Or do go down the MC route?

Do you have metal platter?

 

[Al ears]

nagaoka would be the first on my list. i really like mine.

after that, maybe an ortofon 2m bronze, or blue.

finally, the much praised denon dl103r, if you fancied an mc cart.

+1

Apart from the DL103R I would stick with moving magnets unless you are looking to spend over about £500.

 

[MajorFubar]

I don't think I can add anything which doesn't just underline what others have advised. There's so much potential for differences between turntables/carts/arms/combinations of all three for nearly a thousand reasons (ok...but you get my drift). Definitely worth a listen to anything and everything within budget.