Is hifi worth what it costs

[newlash09]

Just heard the B&W diamond series floor standers today. Room size : 12x17 ft Power amp : parasound Pre-amp : some ayon integrated amp of 30w of pure class A output, now acting as a pre-amp. Dac : some high end north star dac The price of the setup : 30000 pounds. My impressions : from the outset the speakers sounded rich. There was a very convincing feeling that I was listening to high end sound. Everything sounded so rich. And the clarity on vocals was awesome. With the rest of the instruments sounding like layers on the vocals, but not intruding into the vocal magic. Due to small room, the bass was over powering. And when I pointed out , my friend assured that he was working on some bass traps. My question : If I brought over my wife for a listen. She wouldn't guess the price of the setup, compared to mine. So with the improvements being this small, I feel hifi is a uber expensive hobby. And most normal folks would sneer at the price , considering the increment in sound.

 

[Vladimir]

If you didn't know what's the price tag, you wouldn't hear so much 'richness' too.

It's luxury, pride of ownership, bragging rights, sonic signature preference etc. HiFi is no longer about performance.

 

[newlash09]

If you didn't know what's the price tag, you wouldn't hear so much 'richness' too. 

It's luxury, pride of ownership, bragging rights, sonic signature preference etc. HiFi is no longer about performance. 

I started the listen comparing my setup to the B&W's. But the sound richness was truly there. One of my other friends who was also there , mentioned that the tubed ayon's were the source of the richness. But the treble was really something else. I've never heard strings sound like this. I could make out , but Iam sure my wife can't make out. Beacuse she is not listening with my wrapt attention. She would probably say that these sound better than ours. That is what iam debating, are we the only ones to hear the differences and pay huge money for them, while the major main stream population are happy with bluetooth speakers.

 

[newlash09]

First off you don’t even need to see the price tag at shows (nor would you see it) to realise some hi-fi is better than others, and it tends to be more expensive stuff. 

But I get your question newlash but I can also hear my economist father reaffirming the economics lesson to me, and he is right....

Price is what people are prepared to pay on the basis of the market and supply and demand. Market price reflects this, in other words the consumer has the bearing on the determination of market price if the product is freely available. 

 

That makes us a very small community willing to pay more than the public at large. I gifted my sister a powernode for Christmas and told her that it costed 700 pounds , so she should spend a decent amount of money on speakers to enjoy them. And she still hasn't done that. I think I will have gift her the speakers too....so unwilling is the main stream user to make any investment in hifi...and why should they considering the small improvements in sound quality .

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

First off you don’t even need to see the price tag at shows (nor would you see it) to realise some hi-fi is better than others, and it tends to be more expensive stuff.

But I get your question newlash but I can also hear my economist father reaffirming the economics lesson to me, and he is right....

Price is what people are prepared to pay on the basis of the market and supply and demand. Market price reflects this, in other words the consumer has the bearing on the determination of market price if the product is freely available. So hi Fi is worth it’s price, because people buy it. If it wasn’t they wouldn’t buy and market price falls.

In a semantical way, it’s worth it if it is to you. To me it is, that’s why I spent a lot, but I realise law of diminishing returns pretty much comes into most purchasing decisions we make. Is a glass ring as good as a diamond one. Or is a suped up vw golf as good as a basic golf. I mean it does the heating, gets me to a and b, lets me listen to music, guides me there, but isn’t as quick as the suped up one. But for the sake of say £13k versus £25k is it worth it?

 

[Vladimir]

If you didn't know what's the price tag, you wouldn't hear so much 'richness' too.

It's luxury, pride of ownership, bragging rights, sonic signature preference etc. HiFi is no longer about performance.

I started the listen comparing my setup to the B&W's. But the sound richness was truly there. One of my other friends who was also there , mentioned that the tubed ayon's were the source of the richness. But the treble was really something else. I've never heard strings sound like this. I could make out , but Iam sure my wife can't make out. Beacuse she is not listening with my wrapt attention. She would probably say that these sound better than ours. That is what iam debating, are we the only ones to hear the differences and pay huge money for them, while the major main stream population are happy with bluetooth speakers.

Part of this hobby is to learn how to listen and what to listen for. To a normal person these are exagerated minute differences. To us it is night and day.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think a lot of people don’t get it simply because they don’t know what hi Fi is capable of, others are not fussed or just not into it, and then there are ignorant ones who always think that a system they have is the best, or can’t be bettered for more (or sometimes less) money, but I geuss that often applies to many people already in the hobby. It’s human nature. It is a lot of money considering what you could do with it, but it is important to point out that the changes in the 30k system are always going to be incremental to good systems at maybe £10k. I’ve been to shows and heard the £50k system that sounds amazing and is better than mine, but I’m still pleased with my set up for the pleasure it gives me, albeit I’m sure I’d get more pleasure if I did or could spend more.

But if you want the best you can get, then who else is to decry that you are wrong in making your judgements for you about if it is or isn’t better. Only you know that, but your impression of what these types of systems can do is the same as mine.

 

[newlash09]

If you didn't know what's the price tag, you wouldn't hear so much 'richness' too. 

It's luxury, pride of ownership, bragging rights, sonic signature preference etc. HiFi is no longer about performance. 

I started the listen comparing my setup to the B&W's. But the sound richness was truly there. One of my other friends who was also there , mentioned that the tubed ayon's were the source of the richness. But the treble was really something else. I've never heard strings sound like this. I could make out , but Iam sure my wife can't make out. Beacuse she is not listening with my wrapt attention. She would probably say that these sound better than ours. That is what iam debating, are we the only ones to hear the differences and pay huge money for them, while the major main stream population are happy with bluetooth speakers.

Part of this hobby is to learn how to listen and what to listen for. To a normal person these are exagerated minute differences. To us it is night and day. 

Glad to know it is a minority like us who qualm over minor sound differences 🙂

Wishing you a great year ahead mr.vladimir 🙂

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I don’t necessarily agree they are minor, incremental yes, since with either one of the people I mentioned (not fussed, doesn’t try, ignorant) wouldn’t know of the changes as they wouldn’t live with the different systems, so are in no position to judge. Every person is equal therefore if they were the opposite to their characters - , it’s just if they want to try, see the value, or don’t hold onto misconceptions that an iPod dock is the best sounding stereo.

But vladimir talking about wanting to hear stuff for the sake of the price is utter nonsense I’m afraid.

 

[newlash09]

I don’t necessarily agree they are minor, incremental yes, since with either one of the people I mentioned (not fussed, doesn’t try, ignorant) wouldn’t know of the changes as they wouldn’t live with the different systems, so are in no position to judge. Every person is equal therefore if they were the opposite to their characters - , it’s just if they want to try, see the value, or don’t hold onto misconceptions that an iPod dock is the best sounding stereo. 

But vladimir talking about wanting to hear stuff for the sake of the price is utter nonsense I’m afraid. 

Seems like you are having a bad day..you have derided 2 out of 4 folks I hold in very high esteem. Mr.vladimir here, sir Benedict on the Cyrus sound thread. And luckily you haven't mentioned insider9 and bigboss yet. I would advise caution.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I haven’t derided anyone. Have offered my opinion, and I’ll always give that opinion and if another’s experience differs to mine.

 

[newlash09]

You do quest. You might be the sweetest guy in the world at heart. But we all judge you by what you write so here. Your remarks on Cyrus kit prices and then again on experience when it came to sir Benedict's post were unwarranted. So was your reference towards mr.valdimir on my thread. Some one who spent too much of time helping me on my sub 500 pounds HT setup way back in 2013. That is all I want to say...

 

[jjbomber]

And luckily you haven't mentioned insider9 and bigboss yet.

Is that BigBoss on the front of The Times newspaper today? *biggrin*

 

[Gray]

I used to maintain a record player for a nice old Biddy in an old people's home. Her player really was nothing special.....to me.

But I can assure you without doubt, that woman got as much pleasure from her music, played on very modest equipment, as any of the posters on this forum. (Regardless of how much money they've spent on their system)

She constantly listened to and enjoyed her music, not the equipment which, unlike a lot of our stuff, was worth every penny spent.

 

[Vladimir]

If you didn't know what's the price tag, you wouldn't hear so much 'richness' too.

It's luxury, pride of ownership, bragging rights, sonic signature preference etc. HiFi is no longer about performance.

I started the listen comparing my setup to the B&W's. But the sound richness was truly there. One of my other friends who was also there , mentioned that the tubed ayon's were the source of the richness. But the treble was really something else. I've never heard strings sound like this. I could make out , but Iam sure my wife can't make out. Beacuse she is not listening with my wrapt attention. She would probably say that these sound better than ours. That is what iam debating, are we the only ones to hear the differences and pay huge money for them, while the major main stream population are happy with bluetooth speakers.

Part of this hobby is to learn how to listen and what to listen for. To a normal person these are exagerated minute differences. To us it is night and day.

Glad to know it is a minority like us who qualm over minor sound differences 🙂

Wishing you a great year ahead mr.vladimir 🙂

I wish you a wonderful 2018 as well, dear fellow audiophile.

 

[drummerman]

If you didn't know what's the price tag, you wouldn't hear so much 'richness' too.

It's luxury, pride of ownership, bragging rights, sonic signature preference etc. HiFi is no longer about performance.

I started the listen comparing my setup to the B&W's. But the sound richness was truly there. One of my other friends who was also there , mentioned that the tubed ayon's were the source of the richness. But the treble was really something else. I've never heard strings sound like this. I could make out , but Iam sure my wife can't make out. Beacuse she is not listening with my wrapt attention. She would probably say that these sound better than ours. That is what iam debating, are we the only ones to hear the differences and pay huge money for them, while the major main stream population are happy with bluetooth speakers.

Part of this hobby is to learn how to listen and what to listen for. To a normal person these are exagerated minute differences. To us it is night and day.

Glad to know it is a minority like us who qualm over minor sound differences 🙂

Wishing you a great year ahead mr.vladimir 🙂

I wish you a wonderful 2018 as well, dear fellow audiophile.

Aaaaahhhhhw

 

[Gaz37]

First off you don’t even need to see the price tag at shows (nor would you see it) to realise some hi-fi is better than others, and it tends to be more expensive stuff. 

But I get your question newlash but I can also hear my economist father reaffirming the economics lesson to me, and he is right....

Price is what people are prepared to pay on the basis of the market and supply and demand. Market price reflects this, in other words the consumer has the bearing on the determination of market price if the product is freely available. So hi Fi is worth it’s price, because people buy it. If it wasn’t they wouldn’t buy and market price falls. 

In a semantical way, it’s worth it if it is to you. To me it is, that’s why I spent a lot, but I realise law of diminishing returns pretty much comes into most purchasing decisions we make. Is a glass ring as good as a diamond one. Or is a suped up vw golf as good as a basic golf. I mean it does the heating, gets me to a and b, lets me listen to music, guides me there, but isn’t as quick as the suped up one. But for the sake of say £13k versus £25k is it worth it?

 

Ever read the Matrix hifi blind test at the Madrid hifi show?

No prices were revealed & a £500 system beat a £10k system.

I'm sure it's possible to pick holes in the result but it happened nonetheless

 

[newlash09]

Wishing you and your family the same 🙂

 

[insider9]

Main question you need to ask what do you actually pay for? How much of it directly contributes to sound quality?

Design, component quality, manufacturer's knowhow and direct costs.

The minute you add indirect costs (at least considering sound quality) which include postage and packaging, marketing, dealer markup, etc. Is it still worth it? That's the question you can only answer. I appreciate dealers and manufacturers need to stay in business and I wish them well but at the same time I usually buy second hand.

For me it's not worth it at most new prices. Value just isn't there.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

You do quest. You might be the sweetest guy in the world at heart. But we all judge you by what you write so here. Your remarks on Cyrus kit prices and then again on experience when it came to sir Benedict's post were unwarranted. So was your reference towards mr.valdimir on my thread. Some one who spent too much of time helping me on my sub 500 pounds HT setup way back in 2013. That is all I want to say...

i read what I wrote and am quite happy with it. I simply said ‘I may’ have more experience based on owning more cyrus kit it seems and more recent stuff, and from bottom (6 dac) to top (signature stuff) . I wasn’t saying I did catergorically have more experience - I’d never say that. I feel you are being too sensitive here. But since none of what I said on cyrus was challenged anyway, nobody has any grumbles on what I said. I also don’t think it’s unwarranted to say I think vladimirs view is nonsense, as it’s just my opinion and not personal, as I suspect you think anyway judging by your comments about hi Fi 30k sounding better, and him then coming back to effectively tell you, you are imagining things because you want to. In a way I’m sticking up for you, and if I see what I think are poor views I will challenge them. Cheers.

 

[jjbomber]

The price of the setup : 30000 pounds.

the speakers sounded rich.

My wife has just bought a new belt for £400. It doesn't even have her name on, but some french bloke. My belt cost £4.99 and keeps my trousers up. My belt doesn't have anyone's name on. She thinks £400 for a belt is a bargain but could spend 1.25% on a no name belt.

Using the same logic, if I bought a set up for £30,000, with someone else's name on, such as Mr Bowers and Mr Wilkins, that is equivalent to £375 in my wife's no name currency. I just need to listen to the system and tell her that it costs £375. That seems a bargain to me. Not sure the Leader Of The Opposition will see it like that.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

The price of the setup : 30000 pounds.

the speakers sounded rich.

My wife has just bought a new belt for £400. It doesn't even have her name on, but some french bloke. My belt cost £4.99 and keeps my trousers up. My belt doesn't have anyone's name on. She thinks £400 for a belt is a bargain but could spend 1.25% on a no name belt.

Using the same logic, if I bought a set up for £30,000, with someone else's name on, such as Mr Bowers and Mr Wilkins, that is equivalent to £375 in my wife's no name currency. I just need to listen to the system and tell her that it costs £375. That seems a bargain to me. Not sure the Leader Of The Opposition will see it like that.

that sounds like a good means of bargaining to keep upgrading your hi fi! Also don’t hi Fi boxes all look the same in the rack as upgrades. Just make sure she isn’t there for any deliveries!

 

[lindsayt]

Just heard the B&W diamond series floor standers today.

Room size : 12x17 ft Power amp : parasound Pre-amp : some ayon integrated amp of 30w of pure class A output, now acting as a pre-amp. Dac : some high end north star dac The price of the setup : 30000 pounds...

Aim for a 7% solution.

Something that sounds better and costs less than 7% of this system.

Leave the blingtastic systems to footballers.

 

[davidf]

Ever read the Matrix hifi blind test at the Madrid hifi show?

No prices were revealed & a £500 system beat a £10k system.

I'm sure it's possible to pick holes in the result but it happened nonetheless

Who were the subjects? As Vlad mentioned earlier, it’s all about learning what to listen for. Half the reason these random blind tests don’t work is because most of the test subjects have no experience with higher end systems. It then comes down to personal preference, which has zero connection with price. The subjects will more than likely pick the one that’s warmer sounding, easier on the ear, which will be the less accurate one. A friend of mine once had a choice between two £200 amplifiers for his system. He was going to listen to an Arcam Alpha of the time (1990/1991), and I recommended he listened to the newly released Musical Fidelity B1, which was far better in my opinion. I was confident the B1 would win out, as it was blatantly better. He chose the Arcam, because the MF had “too much separation between the instruments”. To him, the Arcam sounded like everything was together, and he preferred that. This example is based on two products of the same price, but it doesn’t matter - if the MF was £5k, it still would’ve lost the vote.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

That’s the thing , the mf will be way better particularly as it’s competing in a different quality/price bracket. The arcam is not better in the comparison of two amps because it suits a preference of sound. It’s just the uninitiated or inexperienced go for the sound that is familiar. I often think the cheap bygone era systems of which everyone has had which are woolly and reverby with bass, breads a warm sounding taste and lots of it with good hi Fi, hence why they then choose that Arcam.

But after a while it’s possible to get tastes that everyone likes and that can only really be achieved when you spend some. So when the user becomes used to what is out there and changes taste to understanding what dynamic hi Fi is about (or separation between the notes) they then realise the musical fidelity is better. Preference of joined up bass in stereos is not uncommon. So I’d say there is a connection with preference to price, it’s just you need to be initiated to know what hi Fi does. You often only get that with experience of owning or demoing etc and taking your time with the purchase.