My point is it’s possible to put objectives into hifi for what’s good. It’s not all just subjective preference. Nobody could really say they don’t like detail or dynamics in the sound and they want their hi Fi to sound muddier with detail and bass notes to be joined up and less dynamic, for example.
BigH
Well-known member
QuestForThe13thNote said:
I think I alot of people can said that many want a warm sound. The MF amp by some accounts was quite aggressive and lively, I see why some would prefer the Arcam or NAD, especially with early digital.
Gaz37 said:
id question if the £500 really did win, did it ‘beat’ it, who were the subjects, the inexperienced or uninitiated etc. Sound is much more a subjective experience until you know what’s good, unlike our vision which is immediately objective eg difference between 4K and 1080p. A more developed sense.
BigH
Well-known member
davidf said:
I believe they were 38 audiophiles: "The human testers were all trained ears and used to extensively listening to high end equipments"
BigH
Well-known member
"14 chose the "A" system as the best sounding one, 10 chose the "B" system as the best sounding one,
14 were not able to hear differences or didn't choose any as the best."
So beat is maybe too strong a word, but only 10/38 choose the expensive system.
14 were not able to hear differences or didn't choose any as the best."
So beat is maybe too strong a word, but only 10/38 choose the expensive system.
davidf
Well-known member
BigH
Well-known member
Yes if anyone can add a link to read it would be great. They must have picked an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar room and maybe through into the mix the expensive system wasn’t regarded it might be easy to get these results. Oh and different listening positions in the test too!
BigH said:
The worst bunch to comprise an audience.
Get the wife's in and they will tell you immediately what is best
This is one of the worst ones. I remember it as the ‘red sheet test’ in my own mind....
They are sitting in different positions. We know nothing about their hearing, what hi Fi do they own, are they audiophiles?, what is the repeatability of the test. Is the boy who looks about 16 on the chair an audiophile? They look like a bunch of local gringos pulled out of a Spanish taverna.
When you add all the vagueries in, it’s very unsurprising that you get these kind of results. Also it’s a low sample test , it won’t be statistically significant in a t test. I’d like it to be done with People like Nigel Finn from chord, and all the magazine writers eg ed Selley, Cassidy etc. Then us lot too. How about a side test of how much hi Fi you listen to versus picking out expensive and good hi Fi. It’s one thing with the cable tests. But using the same speakers which are over 500 quid is not very fair too. Also if you put all those amps and electronics on such speakers, which on the face of it appear more expensive than speakers, it’s hardly surprising that people might choose a cheap amp as being better if they are not used to the sound differences and haven’t changed. Another useless unscientific test.......
They are sitting in different positions. We know nothing about their hearing, what hi Fi do they own, are they audiophiles?, what is the repeatability of the test. Is the boy who looks about 16 on the chair an audiophile? They look like a bunch of local gringos pulled out of a Spanish taverna.
When you add all the vagueries in, it’s very unsurprising that you get these kind of results. Also it’s a low sample test , it won’t be statistically significant in a t test. I’d like it to be done with People like Nigel Finn from chord, and all the magazine writers eg ed Selley, Cassidy etc. Then us lot too. How about a side test of how much hi Fi you listen to versus picking out expensive and good hi Fi. It’s one thing with the cable tests. But using the same speakers which are over 500 quid is not very fair too. Also if you put all those amps and electronics on such speakers, which on the face of it appear more expensive than speakers, it’s hardly surprising that people might choose a cheap amp as being better if they are not used to the sound differences and haven’t changed. Another useless unscientific test.......
Gazzip
Well-known member
davidf said:
It’s this one again David... http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm
You may remember I purchased the Behringer A500 off the back of this when it came up a few years ago. It’s a good amplifier.
I would have picked your pmc twenty5 22s in the test and pair it with cheap Yamaha amp costing £200 and a £100 CD player, and then put your premium system on the 25 22s, or even my system. If nobody could tell the difference on that in getting used to it, probably sticking head in the oven time.
i notice they’ve used relatively inexpensive speakers against the system which were £1500 when new - atc SCM12. You want to pick speakers in the kind of £2.5k to £5k bracket and see what happens with this test. Lol. Id like to see what happens if they used kef reference ones.
i notice they’ve used relatively inexpensive speakers against the system which were £1500 when new - atc SCM12. You want to pick speakers in the kind of £2.5k to £5k bracket and see what happens with this test. Lol. Id like to see what happens if they used kef reference ones.
some serious flaws with that test.
room acoustic treatment in wrong place.
book shelf speakers a long way from a boundary likely getting no room gain and therefore no bass. likely because of bass boom hence the treatment used to try and stop it and speakers where they are.
they powered both systems off the same ikea power strip.
8 people listening at once? not sure on that one.
all factors ruining the end result for each listener
room acoustic treatment in wrong place.
book shelf speakers a long way from a boundary likely getting no room gain and therefore no bass. likely because of bass boom hence the treatment used to try and stop it and speakers where they are.
they powered both systems off the same ikea power strip.
8 people listening at once? not sure on that one.
all factors ruining the end result for each listener
Native_bon
Well-known member
Don't quite agree with the some people not seating in the right places analogy. When you go into a really good sounding room in any hi-fi exhibition, people come saying that was a really good sounding room regardless to seating positions.
Taking all things into consideration, the more expensive system should win hands down or at less have more votes. Hi-fi is not always about price.
Taking all things into consideration, the more expensive system should win hands down or at less have more votes. Hi-fi is not always about price.
stereoman
Well-known member
Such questions are good and have been posted here many times - NO, Hi Fi is not in 90% worth the costs. This is actually one of the most overpriced market types. The price a customer pays is for the idea, hand work or patents - nothing to do with price/quality ratio.
I’ve sat in demos at shows and people at the back don’t discern differences when everyone else does when asked in the demo. A more expensive system should win but if you pair £10k of electronics on £1k speakers and then £20k electronics on same speakers, the speakers are probably maxed out, such that the £20k system won’t be any better on objective variables of what’s best eg clarity, dynamics etc. A similar thing is probably going on with this matrix test. They may be getting near their best on 700 dollars versus 10000. If the 700 dollars is getting 85percent out of the speakers for argument sake, and we know the rule of disminishing returns as you spend more (ie more spending for smaller proportionate percentage improvements), then 10,000 dollars gets 100%, it’s easy to see how we could confuse 85 percent with 100. That’s why you need much better speakers to do these type tests. Eg kef ref. So if a £500 amp on kef refs got 60 percent out of the speakers, but you then spent 10,000 and got 85-90 percent out of the kefs, it’s easier to tell as the differences are more marked ie 60 v 90. This is just common sense and experience.
BigH
Well-known member
drummerman said:BigH said:
The worst bunch to comprise an audience.
Get the wife's in and they will tell you immediately what is best
Yes I agree, I nearly put a comment after audiophiles but thought better of it.
newlash09 said:
So who's the stupid one here...the person who spends £700 on a Powernode for someone who really doesn't want it, or the person who knows that if she procrastinates for a bit, the same person will buy her some expensive speakers to go with it.
Native_bon said:
the speakers freq response will be completely different for all 8 seats as will the reflected abd direct sound from the speakers.
how can anyone test anything fairly in those conditions?
listening at a show and getting an idea is one thing if the same system was setup for just 1 seat it would sound 100% better
that blind test is a great example of how you make an expensive hifi system sound no different to a cheap one
Your point raises another point Ellis, that if they are sitting alltogether are they colluding with each other. If one says it sounds great for the cheap system, the others might think similarly and vote the same. Nothing is said on how they made them vote I don’t think. But what these tests never do that all scientific tests do is have a ‘control’. The obvious type of control is to get them to decide between two systems of the same type but don’t tell them it’s the same. If people vote similarly after say 100 people, but vote differently between the two systems which are different you’ve shown the actual tests is non random and the control tests are the same which you’d expect the more repeatable the test is.
I've been to plenty of bake-offs where the most expensive components or systems have not been the best sounding.BigH said:
Also been to a few where people that didn't attend the bake-off expressed strong opinions on the bake-off in a "I wasn't there, but here's what I think.." kind of way. It's human nature.
I'm quite happy to accept that 14 people prefered the sound of the Sony & Behringer over the Wadia, Classe, YBA.
I've never rated Classe. And Sony have made some good digital sources.
Gazzip
Well-known member
Make no mistake that the Behringer A500 is sonically and technically a VERY impressive amplifier for the money, albeit that build quality and general aesthetics are abysmal. HOWEVER...
The Behringer delivers approx twice the power (2x 125W@8 Ohms) of the YBA power amp (2x 70W@8 Ohms) used in the high end system. Given that ATC’s amplification recommendation for the nominally 8 Ohm SCM12’s is a minimum of 75W the high end amp appears to be on the cusp of underpowered for the speakers.
The YBA was discontinued in the late-mid 90’s so the test model is over 10 years old, whereas the Behringer A500 was only introduced in March 2005, so was virtually brand new (physically and technologically) when the test was carried out in June 2006.
I agree with Ellisdj - obvious attempt to prove an agenda by making the high end system sound average and the cheaper system sound better.
The Behringer delivers approx twice the power (2x 125W@8 Ohms) of the YBA power amp (2x 70W@8 Ohms) used in the high end system. Given that ATC’s amplification recommendation for the nominally 8 Ohm SCM12’s is a minimum of 75W the high end amp appears to be on the cusp of underpowered for the speakers.
The YBA was discontinued in the late-mid 90’s so the test model is over 10 years old, whereas the Behringer A500 was only introduced in March 2005, so was virtually brand new (physically and technologically) when the test was carried out in June 2006.
I agree with Ellisdj - obvious attempt to prove an agenda by making the high end system sound average and the cheaper system sound better.
I agree in that there must be other £10k digital source & amp combinations that would sound better than the Sony Behringer on those ATC's.
Very perceptive on those that did to point out the test was probably constructed on power abilities of the amps, which is obviously going to affect likeability.
I think the point is being missed about accepting people like the behringer Sony combo. Nobody would deny that the test might have revealed what they prefered (although I doubt it mainly on familiarity) but the point is why is it the case with things being equal. It’s avoiding the question or hypothesis trying to be answered ie does more expensive quality hi Fi sound better than cheaper stuff. Wouldn’t a fairer test be then a basic £700 amp versus the same companies £10k system. Of course it would, as you’d eliminate variables.
There is always going to be differences in performance of amps at their price from one now to 10 years ago so I agree with gazzip.
When you drill down people on what it was in the bake-off that sounded better and cheaper to them, and look at all components and interactions, I think you understand really they can’t say there is no relationship of price to quality of hi Fi.
The thing too is living with amps make it so much easier to tell that one is better or not. Fleeting tests in a shop or demo don’t cut it.
I think the point is being missed about accepting people like the behringer Sony combo. Nobody would deny that the test might have revealed what they prefered (although I doubt it mainly on familiarity) but the point is why is it the case with things being equal. It’s avoiding the question or hypothesis trying to be answered ie does more expensive quality hi Fi sound better than cheaper stuff. Wouldn’t a fairer test be then a basic £700 amp versus the same companies £10k system. Of course it would, as you’d eliminate variables.
There is always going to be differences in performance of amps at their price from one now to 10 years ago so I agree with gazzip.
When you drill down people on what it was in the bake-off that sounded better and cheaper to them, and look at all components and interactions, I think you understand really they can’t say there is no relationship of price to quality of hi Fi.
The thing too is living with amps make it so much easier to tell that one is better or not. Fleeting tests in a shop or demo don’t cut it.
Similar threads
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
-
-
-
Setting up my replacement for my Pioneer turntable/
- Started by helijohn
- Replies: 14
-
-
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram