insider9
Well-known member
Blacksabbath25
Well-known member
no i won ! *blum3* your the loser lol you must write 300 lines you loser lol *smile* quick i get my coat ..... i am running
Blacksabbath25 said:
Why do you guys turn sensible posts into these comments. Are you just deliberately trying to make people feel bad. Or do you not understand or respect the purpose of respectful debate. You may not be this way but it comes accross as childish. At least come up with a decent joke. You totally trash the post by doing this.
insider9
Well-known member
Blacksabbath25
Well-known member
its Just a bit of fun quest do not be so serious all the time the thread has run its course anyway there’s not much more you can say about the subject and no one has agreed on the subject as everyone has there own opinions which you can’t always beat away .
I’m not trying to beat anyone. I just like a good debate.
but I’m not amused when these types of comments get put up that stop it if others want to carry on debate, as they would do. You might not want to so you can post elsewhere. Simple. And nobody is to decide and stear it for the sake of others if it’s run it's course.
I also find it asinine if people childishly try a deride what others are saying, which is the effect of this stuff. Make a joke, but some boyish joke. Nah.
Surely the above Is obvious to us as intelligent people?
but I’m not amused when these types of comments get put up that stop it if others want to carry on debate, as they would do. You might not want to so you can post elsewhere. Simple. And nobody is to decide and stear it for the sake of others if it’s run it's course.
I also find it asinine if people childishly try a deride what others are saying, which is the effect of this stuff. Make a joke, but some boyish joke. Nah.
Surely the above Is obvious to us as intelligent people?
Gaz37
Well-known member
As opposed to the preference of an individual reviewer in a magazine or the opinion of an individual on a forum? That's hardly scientific either is it?QuestForThe13thNote said:
insider9 said:
Where higher value hi Fi more often than not equates most of the time to performance. Are you suggesting people may have a complex with saying this?
Where do you stand on this?
Gaz37 said:
There need not be scientific data to make a credible and reliable view based on common sense, of how things might happen or be.
Gaz37
Well-known member
QuestForThe13thNote said:
It's called lightening the tone.
A few pages back people (well me) were being called stupid trolls, that's far more likely to make someone (not me I must add) feel bad than a light hearted comment.
insider9
Well-known member
I'm suggesting credibility and money spent aren't remotely connected. Implying this as you did before isn't your finest moment.QuestForThe13thNote said:
As to subject of the debate. I already made my point a couple of times.
You seem to be making a point for yourself insider. This isn’t some debate about credibility making it personal to me, as you would so do. It’s exactly as I put it, does higher value hi Fi perform better on the whole than cheaper hi Fi, the original question reframed in same wAy. I think you put yourself in the no category to that question with the hi Fi you buy, and views you have, which some who take my view could say isn’t your finest moment too.
ps I read your responses and you haven’t really put your money where your mouth is on that question.
ps I read your responses and you haven’t really put your money where your mouth is on that question.
insider9
Well-known member
QuestForThe13thNote said:
You implied that Vlad wasn't credible because of the value of his system in #172 Why do you feel the need to make remarks like this? Also what category do I put myself into? Didn't know there were categories... but if there's one for a balanced and respectful views then I'm all in. You see even if you behaeve like that I give you a courtesy and respect.
By the way original question was "Is hifi worth what it cost?" I answered this in #19 And as to what hifi I buy isn't my finest moment? *ROFL* Why don't you stop trolling now?
So tell me based on your price/credibility criteria...
Does the fact my speakers retailed at 3 times the price of yours when new make me three times as credible? And the fact I paid for them three times less than you did for yours makes me what exactly?
Romulus
Well-known member
Going back to OP original question, he suggests that 'most normal folks would sneer at the price , considering the increment in sound. - I suggest that if the normal folk were actually present to hear the difference that means they are aware of different quality of HiFi exist and are open to be heard. However there lives another subterennean of music lovers who use MP3, bluetooth, sonos and to their mind a good investment of good HiFi system would be £250. maximum spent. If someone would suggest to the latter group- come and hear a £30,000.00 system, I think half of them would turn around and say 'your having a laugh' or 'you you must be on some wacky backy!' So half the battle is to prove to them that there does exist HiFi which goes far beyond £250. and perhaps the quality of that equipment rises with the price. But I hear that at the top end what one pays for is not necessarilly balanced with quality, but then in that price bracket the type of purchasers can afford not to be bothered about such mundane stuff as value for money worth.
To Insider,
I asked him on his experiences and he continued to make remarks that have no validity, so I expressed a view he has no credibility if he thinks a 1000 speaker is the same as 18800 ones, but he wants to engage in points like he does. Almost like a side show. Either people are taking part on the thread or not at all. Where are you in quizzing him on asking him what actual speakers he is referring to.
You weren’t giving me respect you are trying to put me down and anyone can read that from your post and not being my finest moment. What about yours.
Im not trolling at all. You are trolling me by raising side points I’ve no idea what you are on about.
Again you want to do a put down about your speakers versus credibility. I’ve no idea what you are on about?. If you read my points I made I made very valid ones to Vladimir about why I think what I do which have nothing to do with my credibility or not. You seem very aggressive to me when you want to be and take up only points you want to, not going with the thread.
I asked him on his experiences and he continued to make remarks that have no validity, so I expressed a view he has no credibility if he thinks a 1000 speaker is the same as 18800 ones, but he wants to engage in points like he does. Almost like a side show. Either people are taking part on the thread or not at all. Where are you in quizzing him on asking him what actual speakers he is referring to.
You weren’t giving me respect you are trying to put me down and anyone can read that from your post and not being my finest moment. What about yours.
Im not trolling at all. You are trolling me by raising side points I’ve no idea what you are on about.
Again you want to do a put down about your speakers versus credibility. I’ve no idea what you are on about?. If you read my points I made I made very valid ones to Vladimir about why I think what I do which have nothing to do with my credibility or not. You seem very aggressive to me when you want to be and take up only points you want to, not going with the thread.
Gazzip
Well-known member
Quest, I don’t think that Vladimir or Insider9 are saying that budget hifi is always as good as expensive hifi. I think what they are saying is that budget hifi can be as good as expensive hifi. They are right, it can be. Not always, but sometimes.
So in answer to the OP I would say that worth is a relative term and that hifi is sometimes, but not always, worth what it costs.
So in answer to the OP I would say that worth is a relative term and that hifi is sometimes, but not always, worth what it costs.
They are saying as much one way as the other, which if you challenge them is what insider will not answer to but vladimir clearly does. I’m just interested in the debate of it and understanding what people think which is interesting.
CD players. What does it take to make a world class CD player? What do you need to put inside one.
You need a transport to read the bits reliably at the right speed. These are cheap. £15?
Am audiiophile Dac chip. Cheap as chips. £10.
The case, buttons, control logic circuit, sockets.£200?
You might not need an analogue stage if the voltage from the DAC chip is sufficient to drive the pre-amp. In which case adding an analogue section would make the CD player sound worse.
If you need an analogue section, a high quality single stage section would be all you need. Either transistorised or valved.
Transistors are cheap. A few resistors and capacitors would be cheap.
An over-engineered power supply. Let's go overboard; dual mono and beefy enough for an 80 watt power amp. And let's go separate power supplies for the transport, DAC chip and analogue section. A few hundred quid?
The most expensive area of our world class CD player is the power supplies.
Add in VAT, profit and what are we looking at £1500 retail price if sold direct? £2500 through dealers?
With CD players done right. Done on a less is more basis. Done to a world class sound quality standard there would be no improvement to be had above £2500. Over-complicating the analogue section would make it sound worse.
Therefore any CD players costing over £2500 are a "rip-off" - when compared to our hypothetical minimalist one.
We can apply the same to DAC's.
When we move on to pre-amplifiers there's an argument that for some systems any pre-amp over £600 is a "rip-off".
You need a transport to read the bits reliably at the right speed. These are cheap. £15?
Am audiiophile Dac chip. Cheap as chips. £10.
The case, buttons, control logic circuit, sockets.£200?
You might not need an analogue stage if the voltage from the DAC chip is sufficient to drive the pre-amp. In which case adding an analogue section would make the CD player sound worse.
If you need an analogue section, a high quality single stage section would be all you need. Either transistorised or valved.
Transistors are cheap. A few resistors and capacitors would be cheap.
An over-engineered power supply. Let's go overboard; dual mono and beefy enough for an 80 watt power amp. And let's go separate power supplies for the transport, DAC chip and analogue section. A few hundred quid?
The most expensive area of our world class CD player is the power supplies.
Add in VAT, profit and what are we looking at £1500 retail price if sold direct? £2500 through dealers?
With CD players done right. Done on a less is more basis. Done to a world class sound quality standard there would be no improvement to be had above £2500. Over-complicating the analogue section would make it sound worse.
Therefore any CD players costing over £2500 are a "rip-off" - when compared to our hypothetical minimalist one.
We can apply the same to DAC's.
When we move on to pre-amplifiers there's an argument that for some systems any pre-amp over £600 is a "rip-off".
Quest, you will burn out if you carry on like that. Seen it, been there 
Your opinions are as valid as others but it's unsustainable.
I enjoy your contributions and hope you're here for the long haul.
Cut back a little and enjoy imho.
Your opinions are as valid as others but it's unsustainable.
I enjoy your contributions and hope you're here for the long haul.
Cut back a little and enjoy imho.
davidf
Well-known member
Doesn't really marry up with the best players I’ve heard, of which most have been over £2500.lindsayt said:
I know I’m talking about multi-channel pre-amps here, but there’s a world of difference between an Audiolab 8200AP and a Classé Sigma SSP. If your pre-amp isn’t up to the job, it doesn’t matter how good the rest of the system is.
Pre-amplifiers, despite being one of what should be one of the simplest products to produce, seems to be the hardest one to get right - there’s plenty around, but to get a really top notch one that stands out from the crowd is fairly rare.
In which case we're being screwed over somehow, because very clearly £2500 should buy the best electronics money can buy + a fancy aluminium case + dealer margin. There's only so much money you can throw at electronics.davidf said:
Gazzip
Well-known member
MajorFubar said:
Hifi is a genre of luxury item and all genres of luxury items end up being Veblen to some degree. There is nothing wrong with that and nobody's being "screwed over". That's a little melodramatic don't you think?
BigH
Well-known member
Gazzip said:
Not so sure about that, what about high end gear that use cheap components, or the basically rebadged items in a fancy case that cost about 8x more, or the assembled in USA product that costs 3x more than the exact same model made in China.
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