Is hifi worth what it costs

[BigH]

Doesn't really marry up with the best players I’ve heard, of which most have been over £2500.

Which cdp are you talking about?

 

[davidf]

Doesn't really marry up with the best players I’ve heard, of which most have been over £2500.

Which cdp are you talking about?

I'll take a blind test with the likes of the Chord Red Reference and Wadia players against more "budget" players anytime. Through a suitable system, of course.

 

[davidf]

...or the assembled in USA product that costs 3x more than the exact same model made in China.

I'm not sure that some of China's work practices would be legally allowed in the UK or the US, both in terms of the workforce requirements or their commitment to the environment.

 

[Barbapapa]

lindsayt, nice overview. However, it misses how actual businesses have to work if they want to avoid bankruptcy. You focus, it appears, on the material costs at the expense of design, overhead (including management), profit margin, marketing costs. As has been discussed here in the past, and in other fora as well, the material costs of most modern technological equipment is only a relatively small part of the total costs. Consumers tend to forget this as they don't need to factor in their own labour: if you cook a meal or build a DIY speaker kit it may seem cheap, as you may actually enjoy the work. But a business needs to pay its employees. Hobby companies may forego these costs in the start-up phase, but eventually even these will realise they need to factor in these costs if they are to generate some income.

In particular development and design costs may add up, unless these can be spread out over a large number of units sold. Production costs may be lower if this can be automated (either because of large amounts of units, or by partly reusing machines used for earlier products). Large companies like Yamaha may thereby offer an amazingly cheap product, while boutique manufacturers may be forced to ask a much higher price for a similar specced product.

The necessity to recoup the fixed sunk costs (original investment) over the total production run entails a further practice that may mislead the consumer. Once the sunk costs have been recovered, the remaining stock can be sold at a much lower price while (for the company) still generating a profit. That however does not imply that you were ripped off beforehand.

It is therefore impossible to say in the abstract whether you are being ripped off at a certain price (assuming that by 'ripped off' you mean that you have to pay much more than the total costs).

 

[MajorFubar]

Doesn't really marry up with the best players I’ve heard, of which most have been over £2500.

In which case we're being screwed over somehow, because very clearly £2500 should buy the best electronics money can buy + a fancy aluminium case + dealer margin. There's only so much money you can throw at electronics.

Hifi is a genre of luxury item and all genres of luxury items end up being Veblen to some degree. There is nothing wrong with that and nobody's being "screwed over". That's a little melodramatic don't you think?

Well it depends on your point of view of course. If you've heard a CD player at £5k and you're happy that the difference in sound over a £500 player justifies the price to you, then I'm definitely not going to tell you you're an idiot to buy it. But there's nothing in the box that could cost ten times more; you just simply cannot spend that much on electronic components, even if you buy the best in the world. Basically it's £5k because enough people are willing to spend £5k on it.

 

[Gazzip]

Doesn't really marry up with the best players I’ve heard, of which most have been over £2500.

In which case we're being screwed over somehow, because very clearly £2500 should buy the best electronics money can buy + a fancy aluminium case + dealer margin. There's only so much money you can throw at electronics.

Hifi is a genre of luxury item and all genres of luxury items end up being Veblen to some degree. There is nothing wrong with that and nobody's being "screwed over". That's a little melodramatic don't you think?

Well it depends on your point of view of course. If you've heard a CD player at £5k and you're happy that the difference in sound over a £500 player justifies the price to you, then I'm definitely not going to tell you you're an idiot to buy it. But there's nothing in the box that could cost ten times more; you just simply cannot spend that much on electronic components, even if you buy the best in the world. Basically it's £5k because enough people are willing to spend £5k on it.

Exactly, but it only becomes a rip off if somebody is misled in to buying it.

Jewels, sports cars, caviar, oysters, truffles, champagne, wine, high-end hifi, hand bags, vintage whiskies are in demand because of, rather than in spite of, the high prices asked for them. This makes them desirable as status symbols in the practices of conspicuous consumption and conspicuous leisure. Do you think a CDP can ever be worth £45K?

 

[CnoEvil]

Well it depends on your point of view of course. If you've heard a CD player at £5k and you're happy that the difference in sound over a £500 player justifies the price to you, then I'm definitely not going to tell you you're an idiot to buy it. But there's nothing in the box that could cost ten times more; you just simply cannot spend that much on electronic components, even if you buy the best in the world. Basically it's £5k because enough people are willing to spend £5k on it.

5k is cheap.

A DCS Vivaldi, 4 box CDP (Transport/DAC/Clock/Upsampler) is yours for 55k.

I heard the 4 box Scarlatti back in 2011, in a system worth over 100k (VTL Valve amp - pre + Monos) / Focal Utopia Maestro)...and it was magnificent - but...it's not how I would spend 100k.

 

[Gaz37]

Doesn't really marry up with the best players I’ve heard, of which most have been over £2500.

In which case we're being screwed over somehow, because very clearly £2500 should buy the best electronics money can buy + a fancy aluminium case + dealer margin. There's only so much money you can throw at electronics.

Hifi is a genre of luxury item and all genres of luxury items end up being Veblen to some degree. There is nothing wrong with that and nobody's being "screwed over". That's a little melodramatic don't you think? 

Well it depends on your point of view of course. If you've heard a CD player at £5k and you're happy that the difference in sound over a £500 player justifies the price to you, then I'm definitely not going to tell you you're an idiot to buy it. But there's nothing in the box that could cost ten times more; you just simply cannot spend that much on electronic components, even if you buy the best in the world. Basically it's £5k because enough people are willing to spend £5k on it.

For me that's the problem, when pundits on forums try to convince others that because THEY think it's worth it must be a cast iron certainty.

If somebody is happy to spend £10k a CDP with less than £1k worth of components that's their problem just don't try to persuade others to do so

 

[BigH]

Doesn't really marry up with the best players I’ve heard, of which most have been over £2500.

Which cdp are you talking about?

I'll take a blind test with the likes of the Chord Red Reference and Wadia players against more "budget" players anytime. Through a suitable system, of course.

Someone opened up a Wadia and was shocked what he found inside, basically it was a Marantz cdp.

Yes I'm all for blind tests.

 

[BigH]

...or the assembled in USA product that costs 3x more than the exact same model made in China.

I'm not sure that some of China's work practices would be legally allowed in the UK or the US, both in terms of the workforce requirements or their commitment to the environment.

So you don't buy products such as Apple then because they are made in China? The point is it was the same product but 1 was 3x the price.

 

[MajorFubar]

If somebody is happy to spend £10k a CDP with less than £1k worth of components that's their problem just don't try to persuade others to do so

The frustration though can be that, like the £55k Vivaldi mentioned by Cno, you still have to drop £10k+ to get a box (or boxes) with the hypothetical £1k of components, because market-forces dictate that's the price they bring.

 

[davidf]

So you don't buy products such as Apple then because they are made in China? The point is it was the same product but 1 was 3x the price.

Not much choice really - do I choose a product that just works, and works well, or do I choose a buggy system with constant updates? It's bad enough with the amount of updates my laptop and work PC performs. Believe me, if I could ignore Apple, I would.

 

[davidf]

Someone opened up a Wadia and was shocked what he found inside, basically it was a Marantz cdp.

Yes I'm all for blind tests.

Odd really, as the first Wadia I heard back in the 90s used Teac's VRDS mechanism - Marantz have never used that. Fantastic sounding player. I think the later one I heard was the 381 - if that's a Marantz inside, then I'm seriously impressed at what a nice case provides to the end result. That, along with Chord's player, were the two standout players for me in the last 10 years - you can tell straight away you're listening to something serious. Again, I'll take a blind test here - I've done it before with CD players, and they were all under £100 at the time.

I'm guessing the Wadia you're referring to is the 3200 transport, which does slightly resemble a Marantz player with regards to button layout etc, but that's not the player I'm referring to. I've not heard it. I'm talking about the big serious stuff.

 

[BigH]

Someone opened up a Wadia and was shocked what he found inside, basically it was a Marantz cdp.

Yes I'm all for blind tests.

Odd really, as the first Wadia I heard back in the 90s used Teac's VRDS mechanism - Marantz have never used that. Fantastic sounding player. I think the later one I heard was the 381 - if that's a Marantz inside, then I'm seriously impressed at what a nice case provides to the end result. That, along with Chord's player, were the two standout players for me in the last 10 years - you can tell straight away you're listening to something serious. Again, I'll take a blind test here - I've done it before with CD players, and they were all under £100 at the time.

I'm guessing the Wadia you're referring to is the 3200 transport, which does slightly resemble a Marantz player with regards to button layout etc, but that's not the player I'm referring to. I've not heard it. I'm talking about the big serious stuff.

Yes it was the WT3200 adn it was about 8x the price of the Marantz. But Theta was even worse, so there does seem to be some rip-offs in cdps. Not saying all are, I'm sure the Chord is a fine player not heard it myself.

 

[ellisdj]

The Vivaldi Chassis is Gold Plated - and its beautiful. Click

I actually prefer the white finish click as well

 

[Gazzip]

The Vivaldi Chassis is Gold Plated - and its beautiful. Click

I actually prefer the white finish click as well

Youu would have to paint it black though Terry...

 

[Gazzip]

Someone opened up a Wadia and was shocked what he found inside, basically it was a Marantz cdp.

Yes I'm all for blind tests.

Odd really, as the first Wadia I heard back in the 90s used Teac's VRDS mechanism - Marantz have never used that. Fantastic sounding player. I think the later one I heard was the 381 - if that's a Marantz inside, then I'm seriously impressed at what a nice case provides to the end result. That, along with Chord's player, were the two standout players for me in the last 10 years - you can tell straight away you're listening to something serious. Again, I'll take a blind test here - I've done it before with CD players, and they were all under £100 at the time.

I'm guessing the Wadia you're referring to is the 3200 transport, which does slightly resemble a Marantz player with regards to button layout etc, but that's not the player I'm referring to. I've not heard it. I'm talking about the big serious stuff.

Yes it was the WT3200 adn it was about 8x the price of the Marantz. But Theta was even worse, so there does seem to be some rip-offs in cdps. Not saying all are, I'm sure the Chord is a fine player not heard it myself.

Yes, the WT3200 was an aboration which had a Phillips CDM-1 transport in it, a mechanism used extensively over the years by Marantz. However, about 80% of all Wadia players ever made have used Teac VRDS mechs as David stated in his post. Teac VRDS transports really are in a different league to anything else. The only thing that in my experience comes close is the Phillips CD Pro2 as found, funnily enough, in most Chord Electronics players of the past decade.

 

[Vladimir]

Someone opened up a Wadia and was shocked what he found inside, basically it was a Marantz cdp.

Yes I'm all for blind tests.

Odd really, as the first Wadia I heard back in the 90s used Teac's VRDS mechanism - Marantz have never used that. Fantastic sounding player. I think the later one I heard was the 381 - if that's a Marantz inside, then I'm seriously impressed at what a nice case provides to the end result. That, along with Chord's player, were the two standout players for me in the last 10 years - you can tell straight away you're listening to something serious. Again, I'll take a blind test here - I've done it before with CD players, and they were all under £100 at the time.

I'm guessing the Wadia you're referring to is the 3200 transport, which does slightly resemble a Marantz player with regards to button layout etc, but that's not the player I'm referring to. I've not heard it. I'm talking about the big serious stuff.

Yes it was the WT3200 adn it was about 8x the price of the Marantz. But Theta was even worse, so there does seem to be some rip-offs in cdps. Not saying all are, I'm sure the Chord is a fine player not heard it myself.

Yes, the WT3200 was an aboration which had a Phillips CDM-1 transport in it, a mechanism used extensively over the years by Marantz. However, about 80% of all Wadia players ever made have used Teac VRDS mechs as David stated in his post. Teac VRDS transports really are in a different league to anything else. The only thing that in my experience comes close is the Phillips CD Pro2 as found, funnily enough, in most Chord Electronics players of the past decade.

Teac VRDS is based on the widely used and cheap SONY KSS-151A. I had a Mcintosh MCD-7007. Inside it was a drop in cheap Philips 600 series CDP.

This is all supercheap and easy to make old tech. There's nothing cutting edge in CDPs.

 

[Gazzip]

Someone opened up a Wadia and was shocked what he found inside, basically it was a Marantz cdp.

Yes I'm all for blind tests.

Odd really, as the first Wadia I heard back in the 90s used Teac's VRDS mechanism - Marantz have never used that. Fantastic sounding player. I think the later one I heard was the 381 - if that's a Marantz inside, then I'm seriously impressed at what a nice case provides to the end result. That, along with Chord's player, were the two standout players for me in the last 10 years - you can tell straight away you're listening to something serious. Again, I'll take a blind test here - I've done it before with CD players, and they were all under £100 at the time.

I'm guessing the Wadia you're referring to is the 3200 transport, which does slightly resemble a Marantz player with regards to button layout etc, but that's not the player I'm referring to. I've not heard it. I'm talking about the big serious stuff.

Yes it was the WT3200 adn it was about 8x the price of the Marantz. But Theta was even worse, so there does seem to be some rip-offs in cdps. Not saying all are, I'm sure the Chord is a fine player not heard it myself.

Yes, the WT3200 was an aboration which had a Phillips CDM-1 transport in it, a mechanism used extensively over the years by Marantz. However, about 80% of all Wadia players ever made have used Teac VRDS mechs as David stated in his post. Teac VRDS transports really are in a different league to anything else. The only thing that in my experience comes close is the Phillips CD Pro2 as found, funnily enough, in most Chord Electronics players of the past decade.

Teac VRDS is based on the widely used and cheap SONY KSS-151A. I had a Mcintosh MCD-7007. Inside it was a drop in cheap Philips 600 series CDP.

This is all supercheap and easy to make old tech. There's nothing cutting edge in CDPs.

Teac VRDS is super cheap to make? Possibly, but you don’t really know that now do you? Nothing cutting edge in CDP’s I would agree with.

I have owned many CDP’s over the years and my preference has always been for a Phillips CD Pro transport. Chord Electronics, Bel Canto and Audio Research to name a few I have had. I don’t know why, possibly their commercial world design making them bulletproof/stable, but I have always thought they sounded better than other transports. That was until I owned an Esoteric CDP with a VRDS transport. Simply sublime and better than the Phillips IMO.

Are you now going to tell me that the output voltage on all of my machines was set to high so that they sounded better and that everything in the world sounds the same? *biggrin*

 

[Gazzip]

.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

It amused me your comments Lindsayt trying to work out the cost of CD players, then someone came on and said small markets give higher prices, which is what I’ve been saying all along. I’ve never seen so much rubbish and lack of understanding of economics in my life I’m sorry to say. You try and encapsulate all knowledge of hi Fi into a few lines. I know a small player who spent £300k on development of CD players. When you add in staff costs, rates, premises, vehicles, insurance etc you’ve got to sell thousands to make it pay and return on investment, I’m sure. The r and d guy at this company is being paid to make sure issues with cd players don’t happen, and is on commission to ensure that doesn’t happen.

Also how much do you think compulsory employers liability insurance costs a small employer nowadays? Having to engage health and safety companies etc.

 

[davidf]

It’s funny how some try to belittle the industry and it’s worth by saying that high end is nonsense, and that it’s all cheap stuff dressed up to look nice, but sounds no better. And yet, when there is something that is clearly superior (VRDS), it’s all nonsense because it’s just a cheap transport? It’s all getting a bit contradictory in my opinion.

Even IF the VRDS transports were cheap, I’d take them over a normal transport any day of the week. That, or Pioneer’s Stable Platter Mechanism.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’m with you on this 100 percent David.

What about a meet at your shop to educate the dissenters in a test of varying degrees of quality and price of speakers, then we can open this thread again and people vote if they are changed.

 

[knaithrover]

Quest, you will burn out if you carry on like that. Seen it, been there

Your opinions are as valid as others but it's unsustainable.

I enjoy your contributions and hope you're here for the long haul.

Cut back a little and enjoy imho.

+1

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

You need to start your own hi Fi company maybe, because the views of a few bods on here count for more than the commercial and technical acumen of a hi Fi business.