Is hifi worth what it costs

[davidf]

Why do you need trained listeners? Do you need training to listen to music? Are most people trained who buy hifi?

I was referring to people who are actually listening for something that is technically better. They're not listening for what they prefer, which will be the case with most listening sessions or tests. There's a big difference between the two - like reference and preference.

 

[BigH]

Why do you need trained listeners? Do you need training to listen to music? Are most people trained who buy hifi?

I was referring to people who are actually listening for something that is technically better. They're not listening for what they prefer, which will be the case with most listening sessions or tests. There's a big difference between the two - like reference and preference.

But that is not normal listening, that's listening out for certain sounds and frequencies, thats the problem with some audiofiles. Most people don't listen like that they listen to the music.

 

[Gaz37]

We shouldn't buy what we actually like but instead buy what is technically better?

 

[hybridauth_Google_113430149168470336321]

I am a great believer of you get what you pay for

there is a big difference between budget build quality and build quality of middle to high end components and coming from budget hifi when I started what I have now is far superior then a budget sound hifi and that includes speakers as well without getting into a argument about blind tests .

Must say this is a common sense approach. I concur!

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

We shouldn't buy what we actually like but instead buy what is technically better?

whats musically better and this isn’t mutually exclusive to what you will like, on hearing a few really good systems.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Why do you need trained listeners? Do you need training to listen to music? Are most people trained who buy hifi?

I was referring to people who are actually listening for something that is technically better. They're not listening for what they prefer, which will be the case with most listening sessions or tests. There's a big difference between the two - like reference and preference.

But that is not normal listening, that's listening out for certain sounds and frequencies, thats the problem with some audiofiles. Most people don't listen like that they listen to the music.

the point David is making is i think, that to know about what good hi Fi does you have to have some experience of it. Relations and friends come around and listen to your £15k or £25k set up or whatever and unless they know what they are looking or hearing out for and what and how it differs to a much cheaper stereo, they won’t know or have any idea what it is that it’s doing or good at. That applies to all different stereos and price comparisons. That’s why I have people round all the time and wouldn’t know such systems are better from the stereo in your car. It also accounts why some people berate more expensive hi Fi as they do not know what the really good stuff can do or what they need to listen out for.it comes from experience of going up the chain. Of comparing £300 speakers I’ve owned to much more expensive ones.

It’s not Sounds and frequencies it’s things like imaging, soundstage, clarity, dynamics etc. It doesn’t mean you just listen out for these things when you listen all the time as the point is to get the music really real so you can relax and listen to it, but you are listening to it when checking out a new upgrade or amp or whatever. People who don’t know about this probably haven’t heard hi Fi at a level where it starts going up a notch or is very good. It’s not snobbery it’s just that how the hell can you know about something to which you have no experience. Judging by the comments I’m picking up this may be the case, but I’d stand corrected of course and I’m not casting aspersions but making a point.

Above all else this is one thing the people who don’t understand what more expensive hi Fi can do, as they’ve probably never lived with it or sat down to listen to it. Or maybe they have just walked away due to the price.

Most people do listen to what a stereo can do above another if they are upgrading. If interest in hi Fi was solely about the music then we’d all just have a £5.99 iPod dock from China.

 

[knaithrover]

I really love music and hifi - threads like this suck the life out of it imo. Grim and seemingly without end.

Just saying

 

[BigH]

But Matrix is a group of audiophiles as far as I know, they said all familiar with high end systems. They are not just the public pulled in off the street.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

The 16 year old looking kid in the picture of the test you mean? It could well be they have set it up to flog cheap hi Fi. I’d enquire what their real interest is in doing it.

 

[Vladimir]

Behringer A500 is specified as 125Wpc at 8ohms with 1kHz signal at 1% THD (CLIPPING), 185Wpc in 4ohms. That means it is less powerful at 20Hz-20kHz and 0.5% THD.

YBA 2A has bigger power supply, higher quality parts, doubles its 8 ohms rating into 4 ohms (70/140)

(click to zoom)

I seriously doubt the Behringer A500 would noticably outmuscle the YBA 2A (if at all).

Interestingly that’s not what the loudspeaker manufacturer thinks. They’re looking for 150 Wpc in to 8 Ohms, which the YBA does not get even close to producing. They say:

With any passive loudspeaker there is a trade off between low frequency extension and sensitivity. These monitor’s extended low frequency response means the sensitivity is relatively low. It is therefore advisable to select a power amplifier of relatively high power output capabilities.Typically, best performance comes with use of amplifiers capable of >150W continuous into 8 ohms.

Use of an underpowered amplifier will result in the premature distortion of the system and increased risk of damage due to voice coil overheating

Let’s look at that last bit again shall we - Use of an underpowered amplifier will result in the premature distortion of the system - I think I’m going to go with ATC’s specified power rating requirements rather than the your 12th Grade physics.

The two compared amplifiers are at best 30Wpc apart, which doesn't seem to support your point at all. When you start pushing inefficient speakers loud, 30W is just a drop in the ocean. Not even a decibel of difference.

The Behringer is overrated for marketing purposes. The YBA is underrated (lower claimed 8ohms figure to get that doubling down in 4ohms kudos) for marketing purposes. They target different markets with different preferences.

 

[Gaz37]

We shouldn't buy what we actually like but instead buy what is technically better?

whats musically better and this isn’t mutually exclusive to what you will like, on hearing a few really good systems. 

I'm genuinely struggling to understand this concept & am not being deliberately argumentative.

I walk into a hifi shop with £10k in my pocket.
I listen to a few systems & choose what I consider to be the best sounding.
Am I to understand that I shouldn't buy it but should go on a course that will teach me to appreciate a system that I don't like?

 

[Gazzip]

Behringer A500 is specified as 125Wpc at 8ohms with 1kHz signal at 1% THD (CLIPPING), 185Wpc in 4ohms. That means it is less powerful at 20Hz-20kHz and 0.5% THD.

YBA 2A has bigger power supply, higher quality parts, doubles its 8 ohms rating into 4 ohms (70/140)

(click to zoom)

I seriously doubt the Behringer A500 would noticably outmuscle the YBA 2A (if at all).

Interestingly that’s not what the loudspeaker manufacturer thinks. They’re looking for 150 Wpc in to 8 Ohms, which the YBA does not get even close to producing. They say:

With any passive loudspeaker there is a trade off between low frequency extension and sensitivity. These monitor’s extended low frequency response means the sensitivity is relatively low. It is therefore advisable to select a power amplifier of relatively high power output capabilities.Typically, best performance comes with use of amplifiers capable of >150W continuous into 8 ohms.

Use of an underpowered amplifier will result in the premature distortion of the system and increased risk of damage due to voice coil overheating

Let’s look at that last bit again shall we - Use of an underpowered amplifier will result in the premature distortion of the system - I think I’m going to go with ATC’s specified power rating requirements rather than the your 12th Grade physics.

The two compared amplifiers are at best 30Wpc apart, which doesn't seem to support your point at all. When you start pushing inefficient speakers loud, 30W is just a drop in the ocean. Not even a decibel of difference.

The Behringer is overrated for marketing purposes. The YBA is underrated (lower claimed 8ohms figure to get that doubling down in 4ohms kudos) for marketing purposes. They target different markets with different preferences.

Okay, so to summarise today in support of your argument we have had: 1) ATC’s power requirements of 150W in to 8 Ohms is misleading and incorrect. 2) Behringer’s specs are overrated for marketing purposes and are therefore incorrect. 3) YBA’s specs are underrated for marketing purposes and are therefore incorrect.

*ROFL*

 

[Vladimir]

The point of buying expensive, luxury, overpriced if you will, branded products is to remind ourselves that we are doing well in life. No one really needs a $20,000 divers watch that goes 200m under water and is made of precious metals. It's just an advertisment of ones achievements and status.

$20,000 beautifully piano finished Sonus Fabers may sound very good, but their prupose is to also advertise the owner, most of the time to himself. Not gently whispering, but shouting boldly "You are better than most!".

12 layers of concert piano grade laquer cost more than the drivers, yet contribute nothing to the sonic performance. This is how you end up with expensive speakers sounding worse than cheaper ones. The manufacturer is selling a $1200 speaker fidelity wise, but they added $18,800 worth of social status bling to it.

 

[Vladimir]

Behringer A500 is specified as 125Wpc at 8ohms with 1kHz signal at 1% THD (CLIPPING), 185Wpc in 4ohms. That means it is less powerful at 20Hz-20kHz and 0.5% THD.

YBA 2A has bigger power supply, higher quality parts, doubles its 8 ohms rating into 4 ohms (70/140)

(click to zoom)

I seriously doubt the Behringer A500 would noticably outmuscle the YBA 2A (if at all).

Interestingly that’s not what the loudspeaker manufacturer thinks. They’re looking for 150 Wpc in to 8 Ohms, which the YBA does not get even close to producing. They say:

With any passive loudspeaker there is a trade off between low frequency extension and sensitivity. These monitor’s extended low frequency response means the sensitivity is relatively low. It is therefore advisable to select a power amplifier of relatively high power output capabilities.Typically, best performance comes with use of amplifiers capable of >150W continuous into 8 ohms.

Use of an underpowered amplifier will result in the premature distortion of the system and increased risk of damage due to voice coil overheating

Let’s look at that last bit again shall we - Use of an underpowered amplifier will result in the premature distortion of the system - I think I’m going to go with ATC’s specified power rating requirements rather than the your 12th Grade physics.

The two compared amplifiers are at best 30Wpc apart, which doesn't seem to support your point at all. When you start pushing inefficient speakers loud, 30W is just a drop in the ocean. Not even a decibel of difference.

The Behringer is overrated for marketing purposes. The YBA is underrated (lower claimed 8ohms figure to get that doubling down in 4ohms kudos) for marketing purposes. They target different markets with different preferences.

Okay, so to summarise today in support of your argument we have had: 1) ATC’s power requirements of 150W in to 8 Ohms is misleading and incorrect. 2) Behringer’s specs are overrated for marketing purposes and are therefore incorrect. 3) YBA’s specs are underrated for marketing purposes and are therefore incorrect.

*ROFL*

I haven't commented on the speakers. I'm just pointing out you are taking misleading specs too readily as facts. You know they all spice things up in that department.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

We shouldn't buy what we actually like but instead buy what is technically better?

whats musically better and this isn’t mutually exclusive to what you will like, on hearing a few really good systems.

I'm genuinely struggling to understand this concept & am not being deliberately argumentative.

I walk into a hifi shop with £10k in my pocket. I listen to a few systems & choose what I consider to be the best sounding. Am I to understand that I shouldn't buy it but should go on a course that will teach me to appreciate a system that I don't like?

you will know when you get it back home and you’ve got it next to your £100 speakers what it does differently if it’s a really good system at that price. How much better clarity, realism, dynamics, soundstage etc. You’ve got the experience and it will be better by some margin. You’ve got something to compare it against with the £100 speakers. If you went on a journey with it upgrading in stages you’ll know similar things with sources, amps and experience. If you were then asked to give it back for the £100, (£1000or £5k system) you had before, you’ll almost certainly not want to.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

The point of buying expensive, luxury, overpriced if you will, branded products is to remind ourselves that we are doing well in life. No one really needs a $20,000 divers watch that goes 200m under water and is made of precious metals. It's just an advertisment of ones achievements and status.

$20,000 beautifully piano finished Sonus Fabers may sound very good, but their prupose is to also advertise the owner, most of the time to himself. Not gently whispering, but shouting boldly "You are better than most!".

12 layers of concert piano grade laquer cost more than the drivers, yet contribute nothing to the sonic performance. This is how you end up with expensive speakers sounding worse than cheaper ones. The manufacturer is selling a $1200 speaker fidelity wise, but they added $18,800 worth of social status bling to it.

can I ask you a question please Vladimir, what hi Fi have you actually lived with in terms of maximum value and what was it. My perception of you is that you know a lot of the technical facts regarding hi fi but I get the incling youve never owned a 1200 or 18,800 speaker? My difficulty is how on Earth can anyone cast aspersions of 18,800 speakers if they’ve never had them in their living room.

 

[Vladimir]

The point of buying expensive, luxury, overpriced if you will, branded products is to remind ourselves that we are doing well in life. No one really needs a $20,000 divers watch that goes 200m under water and is made of precious metals. It's just an advertisment of ones achievements and status.

$20,000 beautifully piano finished Sonus Fabers may sound very good, but their prupose is to also advertise the owner, most of the time to himself. Not gently whispering, but shouting boldly "You are better than most!".

12 layers of concert piano grade laquer cost more than the drivers, yet contribute nothing to the sonic performance. This is how you end up with expensive speakers sounding worse than cheaper ones. The manufacturer is selling a $1200 speaker fidelity wise, but they added $18,800 worth of social status bling to it.

can I ask you a question please Vladimir, what hi Fi have you actually lived with in terms of maximum value and what was it. My perception of you is that you know a lot of the technical facts regarding hi fi but I get the incling youve never owned a 1200 or 18,800 speaker? My difficulty is how on Earth can anyone cast aspersions of 18,800 speakers if they’ve never had them in their living room.

You missed the point completely. How are you an accountant and not understand these basics of pricing? Its high school level economics.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I understand how hi Fi is priced and the economics of it. I’m not sure which specific model you are talking about. Then we can look at the specs relavtive to a cheaper model speaker.

Please elaborate and quid pro quo, which hi Fi you’ve owned please.

But my issue is how on earth can you have the experience to know what the differences are between a £100 pair of actives I think you own, versus say gazzips amplification and speakers which is I’m sorry in not only a different ballpark, but a different league and in fact a different sport. It’s not a spiteful thing to say but for the perspective of debate it’s just reality. I think you should put your money where your mouth is on this one.

 

[Gaz37]

The point of buying expensive, luxury, overpriced if you will, branded products is to remind ourselves that we are doing well in life. No one really needs a $20,000 divers watch that goes 200m under water and is made of precious metals. It's just an advertisment of ones achievements and status.

$20,000 beautifully piano finished Sonus Fabers may sound very good, but their prupose is to also advertise the owner, most of the time to himself. Not gently whispering, but shouting boldly "You are better than most!". 

12 layers of concert piano grade laquer cost more than the drivers, yet contribute nothing to the sonic performance. This is how you end up with expensive speakers sounding worse than cheaper ones. The manufacturer is selling a $1200 speaker fidelity wise, but they added $18,800 worth of social status bling to it. 

The truth

 

[Vladimir]

I understand how hi Fi is priced and the economics of it. I’m not sure which specific model you are talking about. Then we can look at the specs relavtive to a cheaper model speaker.

Please elaborate and quid pro quo, which hi Fi you’ve owned please.

But my issue is how on earth can you have the experience to know what the differences are between a £100 pair of actives I think you own, versus say gazzips amplification and speakers which is I’m sorry in not only a different ballpark, but a different league and in fact a different sport. It’s not a spiteful thing to say but for the perspective of debate it’s just reality. I think you should put your money where your mouth is on this one.

You mean how can I tell $20,000 speakers with $800 stock Seas drivers aren't worth $20,000 performance wise without owning them?

EDIT: gazzips choice of speakers is a bad example for what you're trying to say since his preference is more leaned towards actual performance. PMC professional monitors are fairly aesthetically challenged. I'm not sure how many piano lacquer finishes on them. I presume not many. *smile*

 

[Gaz37]

I understand how hi Fi is priced and the economics of it. I’m not sure which specific model you are talking about. Then we can look at the specs relavtive to a cheaper model speaker. 

Please elaborate and quid pro quo, which hi Fi you’ve owned please. 

But my issue is how on earth can you have the experience to know what the differences are between a £100 pair of actives I think you own, versus say gazzips amplification and speakers which is I’m sorry in not only a different ballpark, but a different league and in fact a different sport. It’s not a spiteful thing to say but for the perspective of debate it’s just reality. I think you should put your money where your mouth is on this one.

I have never driven a £360,000 Rolls Phantom does this mean I'm not qualified to say that whilst it's undoubtedly a nice car it's not ten times better than a £36k Audi or Lexus.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Well that tells everyone you can’t have any idea what they sound like. My seas drivers in my speakers sound different to kudos which use similar ones, and it’s a totally different speaker and the whole design always comes into the sound of the speaker. You don’t think the materials, design, crossover, crossover quality, transmission line tuning, all these multitude of variables has an effect? Ok so it may be a luxury speaker make but that doesn’t decry the argument that more utilitarian speakers like gazzips are better than utilitarian £300 speakers.

but I perceive you don’t want to properly debate this because you won’t say what system you’ve owned as max price. if you were in the market for speakers like these sonus Fabers, you’d probably listen to £10k speakers upwards and make judgements . I’m probably with you that some designed looking hi Fi is often not great performance wise eg bang and olufsen. But from what you’ve said you don’t believe in spending any more than 1200 dollars, and reach plateau there, which a lot of people on this forum will think just lacks all credibility.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I understand how hi Fi is priced and the economics of it. I’m not sure which specific model you are talking about. Then we can look at the specs relavtive to a cheaper model speaker.

Please elaborate and quid pro quo, which hi Fi you’ve owned please.

But my issue is how on earth can you have the experience to know what the differences are between a £100 pair of actives I think you own, versus say gazzips amplification and speakers which is I’m sorry in not only a different ballpark, but a different league and in fact a different sport. It’s not a spiteful thing to say but for the perspective of debate it’s just reality. I think you should put your money where your mouth is on this one.

I have never driven a £360,000 Rolls Phantom does this mean I'm not qualified to say that whilst it's undoubtedly a nice car it's not ten times better than a £36k Audi or Lexus.

if you don’t know how good it’s engineered, it’s performance, how well it’s made, then I doubt you can make that judgement if you’ve never driven it and or inspected it. But it’s probably in a different market to a audi or Lexus. You’d have to compare it with a similar car like a maybach maybe, at a similar price. And anyway nobody is ever saying in hi Fi that a 10k hi Fi is ten times better than a 1k one as law of diminishing returns comes in just like in your car example.

but whilst you think it’s exactly the case that people have such a car to feel good about themselves, as you agreed with Vlad, I’d ask yourself the question if you had that money would you value the quality of such a car. If I looked at your spending I suspect their are items you buy that you could buy much cheaper. So you see we can apply the same argument. So maybe instead of driving a Skoda rs and fast bmw around a track day you did, why not take a original banger mini around a mud track in a race much cheaper. Applying your own argument some would say that because you are doing it in a bmw and track to feel good about yourself as status. You could do it in a mini banger mud track. I could equally apply other analogies to your hobby.

So you see value is to different people different depending on circumstances, their spending, and income etc.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

A blind test is floored anyway as most people who go to one each persons hearing is different at that test as everyone hears at different frequency range and most probably the people going to one are into there 40-50s so the older you get so does some of the frequency range disappears and probably the only person who benefited was the 16 year old as his hearing should be perfect for his age .

I bet that most of us on here I bet you can’t hear half the frequencies your speakers are capable off and that includes myself and you would also need someone who has classical training to spot the frequencies and the difference in music to fully understand we just scratch the surface let’s face it we understand what sounds good to our selfs and no body else .

 

[Vladimir]

When you buy off the shelf speaker parts, they are usually specified in great details. You don't need to do measurments or invest in any R&D, you just integrated them based on really rudimentary knowledge most DIYers know. The driver manufacturer gives recommendations which drivers they sell integrate well and what kind of crossover to build and even box specifications. This leaves the speaker manufacturer to focus on the piano lacquer finish and the gorgeous brochures and nice magazine reviews.

The shitty budget desktop actives I have have millions of R&D in them, 40 years of acoustics/psychoacoustics science, and testing with billions of dollars worth of equipment and staff. Custom made inhouse drivers and amplifiers. Ironically.

I couldn't afford the piano lacquer.