Is hifi worth what it costs

[Gazzip]

Using this calculator: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

And feeding it with 85 db sensitivity, 150 watts, 2 speakers, away from wall, 12 feet listening distance, that gives 98.5 dbs at the listening position (that's very loud even if it's just for transient peaks)

Change it to 20 feet listening distance and it's 94 dbs. Still very loud.

What ATC says is true - for listening levels where there's peaks above 94 to 98 dbs, depending on listening distance.

Below those volumes there's no additional distortion whatsoever due to the amplifier only having 150 watts. Any sonic differences then would be down to the quality of each amplifier in normal unclipped conditions.

I think ATC are making a misleading statement as the volumes at which clipping distortion sets in with 150 watts are so high that many owners may never listen that loud. For sure a 2 watt amplifier would be unsuitable as that'd give only 80 dbs at 12 feet, but 80 to 150 watts would be fine for most people.

I can't question your maths regarding the dB level at given distances because I don't know the equation you used, but I definitely question your definition of very loud.

When expressing loudness as dB you need to factor in the "A" weighting to take account of how loud a sound is actually perceived by the human ear. dBA levels are weighted to approximate the way the human ear hears certain frequencies, and are usually much lower than dB ratings. For example a 94dBA rating is equivalent to the sound level endured inside a carriage on the London Underground.

Even if you don't take account of the "A" rating we are still only talking about a lawnmower at 94dB. Not exactly ear splitting volume levels.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

There is always going to be people who prefer one thing over another but a comparison to a vw versus a Ford isn’t a fair test to someone who owns a hi Fi under £250 and says it beats a good system at £10k, £15k, or £20k on sound quality. I’m sorry but it’s simply wishful thinking and there may or may not be very human emotions and reactions going on that create that thinking. Things like jealousy, being obstinate without experience, attitude to money, and so on. If anyone wants to take that test Im sure it could be organised. It is hard to take anyone as credible who believes it that way, not least the economic reality or what it takes for a naim, or Cyrus, or musical fidelity to get the products out at a price they do.

It may well be a Casio does its job as well as a Rolex, but that’s not the question is it. It’s does it feel and look as luxurious, will it last as long etc, will it develop as many issues. It’s the same types of things of the difference between a Ford and vw. But you are asking a very specific question with the sound quality thing with more expensive hi Fi and the reason you might not want to answer goes back to the these human factors.

 

[davedotco]

The family made their usual coffee in their usual way & spat it out calling it undrinkable because they believed it to be a cheaper brand which they wouldn't like. I can't think of a better example of expectation bias overriding reality, in this case to the point where it fooled their senses

I can't imagine that. I'll make the odd duff cuppa every now and again, but I know that it's my fault. If I know I'm using different tea bags, I'll make the cuppa a little differently to compensate. But then, I suppose you're putting that doubt in someone's head to begin with. If I was unknowingly making a cuppa out of something like PG Tips or Tetley etc, I'd know while I'm making it (before I've tasted it), as one Yorkshire tea bag can make a strong tea equivalent to two of the regular brands. Note I'm not even talking cheapo own brands here.

Maybe these programmes are paid for by supermarkets trying to push their own brands because they make more money on them? Sound familiar?

Then again, this sounds like one step away from reality TV, which I despise with every single molecule in my body - fake trash.

I'm not a brand snob though, as sometimes I'll have a supermarket's own cheese, as I've tried them before and they're very good -I reckon that'd be harder to taste any difference with. But no one's getting past me with tea bags

The problem with the hi-fi 'establishment' in a nutshell.

If a demonstration, test or experiment does not produce the 'correct' result then;

It is either fixed or incompedent.

Simple as that, nothing else to say.

 

[davidf]

The problem with the hi-fi 'establishment' in a nutshell.

If a demonstration, test or experiment does not produce the 'correct' result then;

It is either fixed or incompedent.

Simple as that, nothing else to say.

The post was absolutely nothing to do with hi-fi or audio! I was about tea, coffee, and shite TV programmes! Nice try Dave.

So if you have a problem with the hi-fi 'establishment' not watching trash TV, then feel free to expand on your point. But your post does illustrate how people 'make things up' in their own minds.

As I mentioned in my post a page or so ago, I've refrained from commenting on the "blind test" this time round as I did all that last time.

By the way, it's competent/incompetent, not compedent/incompedent.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Reply 128 dacedotco.

In science people set out to try and prove and disprove but to just say it proves a correct result, without argument, would not be taken seriously and considered credible. You can’t make a point by a double negative is what I think you are doing. For example, creationists attempt to ignore Darwinism, when I pick up and read those horrible jahova creationist books they hand out at stations. It’s a very facile and somewhat arrogant position for creationists.

 

[MajorFubar]

I did not like this Major

Aw sorry Newlash...probably just my humour that doesn't translate well over the internet. I didn't really mean you were stupid, nor your sister, it was just meant colloquially. I had hoped that was clear with the smiley at the end, but I guess it was not. You bought your sister some audio equipment that was of higher quality than she presumably appreciates, and because she has so far failed to show appropriate gratitude by at least buying some good speakers to go with it, you've resigned yourself to the inevitability of having to buy those as well. I need you as a brother.

Happy new year.

 

[BigH]

I am a great believer of you get what you pay for

there is a big difference between budget build quality and build quality of middle to high end components and coming from budget hifi when I started what I have now is far superior then a budget sound hifi and that includes speakers as well without getting into a argument about blind tests .

Not always, they are cons, marketing, bespoke components, low economies of scale etc. Just paying a load more money does not mean it's better. Some reviewers and users have taken gear apart. High end cd player had a very cheap transport. Expensive power supply, only had very cheap components inside. Yes I would expect a £2,000 Yahama amp to be better than their £300 one. I bet your amp. weights a lot more than a £300 Yahama amp? Did you not try some high end low powered amps?

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

A source is the last thing I’d be advocating to test if better is more expensive. Because sources are too close together. You’d do it on speakers and amps. So if you had a amp at £1000, another £2000 and so on, with each amp regarded as best at its price by a number of people or in reviews, I can assure you that at each stage you’d get better pretty much all the time.

Sorry im repeating myself bigh but I don’t think you get it that hi Fi does have relatively cheap components inside, pretty much all of it in the scheme of things. You could take a £1000 amp and it’s got say £100 of components in it, versus a £2500 amp and similar price of components. It’s what it sounds like, what’s gone into design etc.

 

[BigH]

The family made their usual coffee in their usual way & spat it out calling it undrinkable because they believed it to be a cheaper brand which they wouldn't like. I can't think of a better example of expectation bias overriding reality, in this case to the point where it fooled their senses

I can't imagine that. I'll make the odd duff cuppa every now and again, but I know that it's my fault. If I know I'm using different tea bags, I'll make the cuppa a little differently to compensate. But then, I suppose you're putting that doubt in someone's head to begin with. If I was unknowingly making a cuppa out of something like PG Tips or Tetley etc, I'd know while I'm making it (before I've tasted it), as one Yorkshire tea bag can make a strong tea equivalent to two of the regular brands. Note I'm not even talking cheapo own brands here.

Maybe these programmes are paid for by supermarkets trying to push their own brands because they make more money on them? Sound familiar?

Then again, this sounds like one step away from reality TV, which I despise with every single molecule in my body - fake trash.

I'm not a brand snob though, as sometimes I'll have a supermarket's own cheese, as I've tried them before and they're very good -I reckon that'd be harder to taste any difference with. But no one's getting past me with tea bags

Why do you drink Yorkshire tea, did you see the nice adverts on the TV? Maybe you should try other brands, Yorkshire Tea came near the bottom of one test I read. "Yorkshire Tea and PG Tips were said to both taste like 'dishwater,' according to the judges."

 

[insider9]

Why do you drink Yorkshire tea, did you see the nice adverts on the TV? Maybe you should try other brands, Yorkshire Tea came near the bottom of one test I read. "Yorkshire Tea and PG Tips were said to both taste like 'dishwater,' according to the judges."

You'd be shocked how the same tea or in my case coffee tastes depending on water being used to brew it. I'm also guessing they used milk that varies considerably. Secondly, I would not be such an expert to know what dishwater tastes like to have a point of reference. And finally it surely down to personal taste. Why are we discussing tea on a hifi forum? (rhetorical question) *scratch_one-s_head*

 

[davidf]

Why do you drink Yorkshire tea, did you see the nice adverts on the TV? Maybe you should try other brands, Yorkshire Tea came near the bottom of one test I read. "Yorkshire Tea and PG Tips were said to both taste like 'dishwater,' according to the judges."

I hardly watch any TV. I watch Formula 1, WTC and BTCC racing, the odd documentary on Sky Arts or BBC iPlayer. The odd TV series I've watched has been via Netflix or similar - so no, not really an ad sort of person. I think the first time I tried it was at my last place, where the employer would always buy big boxes or bags of cheap tea bags (either Tetley or PG) which you can only do so much to get a half decent cup of tea out of them. A regular visiting customer would sometimes bring in a box of Yorkshire tea bags (which was when I first tried it, I think) until the staff started buying their own. The Yorkshire tea bags produce a much stronger cup of tea, to the point that I would have to use two normal bags to match one Yorkshire bag, but didn't taste the same.

I'm not saying there won't be other tea bags out there that will measure up to the Yorkshire ones, it's just not Tetley or PG!

 

[BigH]

Yes you could be right about the water, Yorkshire is a hard water area unlike London and Birmingham.

Some hifi dealer brought it up, see posts above.

 

[davidf]

Why are we discussing tea on a hifi forum? (rhetorical question) *scratch_one-s_head*

After someone mentioned a TV programme where families have thei regular brands swapped for cheap ones, I used it to make a point about personal preference being a major factor in this farce of a blind listening test! Clearly, the listeners weren't trying to detect the high end system - they were choosing which one they liked the sound of - a different requirement. You can put ANY two systems in there, and if people are choosing by personal preference, which they will be, the end choice could go either way.

Now if you take a real blind listening test, like those they hold at Harman by trained listeners, that's a different story.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Not everything is black and white like a lot of the comments on this thread

The Yamaha A-S2100 is one of the highest spec amplifiers your find for £3500 as this was the price of it when it first hit the market it has a custom power supply and uses aluminium , wood , aluminium controls solid aluminium , brass and a lot of the components inside are made specially and the same goes for the Yamaha A-S3000 too

The Yamaha A-S2100 CD player is also not standard inside it loading try is milled out of solid aluminium and has the quietest try you will ever hear the same goes for its power supply inside custom and both the CD player and the amplifier are well over engineered to last .

ive had budget setup a Marantz PM6005 and Cd6005 if you take the lid of there is not much inside but if you take the lid of my Yamaha A-S2100 amplifier you can definitely see what your paying for which is pure quality and budget hifi like the Marantz PM6005 comes no where near as good as my Yamaha does if it did sound the same why would I wasted over £2000 on something that sounds the same as a £250 amplifier for because I wasn’t fooled .

 

[insider9]

Why are we discussing tea on a hifi forum? (rhetorical question) *scratch_one-s_head*

After someone mentioned a TV programme where families have thei regular brands swapped for cheap ones, I used it to make a point about personal preference being a major factor in this farce of a blind listening test! Clearly, the listeners weren't trying to detect the high end system - they were choosing which one they liked the sound of - a different requirement. You can put ANY two systems in there, and if people are choosing by personal preference, which they will be, the end choice could go either way.

Now if you take a real blind listening test, like those they hold at Harman by trained listeners, that's a different story.

Thanks David I have been following the thread

I agree on the preference. It's like buying an expensive bottle of whisky and/or wine. The first sip might just shock people as it's not what they expect and they just don't understand what's happening. It may take a while to appreciate the finer things in life.

However it is my opinion that the test mentioned was rigged and as such any conclusions taken from it are irrelevant to the subject. It's not to say that there couldn't be a good budget system that would beat a high end system. There can be great budget gear and absolute tosh high end stuff both objectively and subjectively.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I don’t go with groups of hi Fi people that think that you can buy used stuff which is often well past its best, and get it to sound like modern newly designed modern hi Fi stuff. It’s just wishful thinking. With respect to you insider I know you buy lots of used stuff, but when ive been to these shows of people putting used systems together and bakeoffs of people singing the virtues of used old kit to do the same job as some new dacs, amps and speakers that are different class, I just think they are talking utter rubbish and these systems don’t often work. On the other hand visit a dealer and have a listen to some premium decent expensive systems it’s different class. The hi Fi wigwam is full of these types as well as the art of sound one.

As an illustration someone bought some Michell power amps to me in a bake-off at mine and they were overly woolly with bass and too much power and everyone else sat there as if there wasn’t any difference. In all fairness they probably didn’t know my system but it would be exactly the same stuff they they might pair up to a system. The stuff is all very bizarre makes and there is a reason why it’s often not as good because not a lot of people buy it. Also a mixmash of makes often makes it poor without great synergy.

so it’s not like you put it implying that cheap systems are interchangeably as good as more expensive ones.

 

[jjbomber]

I can prove it - the missus doesn't like the way I make her coffee - because I don't make it the same way that she does. I'm fussy about my tea, and now I only have those Yorkshire tea bags - in comparison to the usual PG etc, they're far better, producing a stronger cup of tea with some taste to it. Stick another cup of tea in front of me - it doesn't matter if you've used two PG Tips tea bags to make a stronger tea - I'll know.

I think you need to upgrade the cable on the kettle. The cheap one that came supplied with the kettle isn't up to the job. IIt's probably not even shielded from the microwave. I suggest a super cable for improved flavour. I am sure your wife will walk in as the kettle is boiling and notice how the kettle whistles in a much clearer tone. Definitely the cable is the problem.

 

[insider9]

I don't disagree a lot of it can be wishfull thinking. And when it is rubbish it really doesn't matter what it cost. But if it didn't cost a lot it's definitely a huge relief to the owner.

I never implied that "cheap systems are interchangeably as good as more expensive ones". I only pointed out that for me there are good components and bad ones. Sometimes you get a good quality and good sounding component that is cheap, sometimes you get something expensive that is not so good.

Yes I buy 75-80% of my gear second hand. Streamer/DACs/DSP being the exception. Particularly speakers are an excellent second hand buy. As long as they were treated with care they will last for a long time. Carefully bought electronics and from decent manufacturers are also a very safe buy. My second hand Densen came with 12 month warranty. I'd be happy to pay less not to get the warranty on it. It's not going to cause me any issues.

The main reason I buy second hand is depreciation. And the fact I go through a lot of gear as opposed to many on here I don't intend to keep components for years to come. I'm not against it but it's just more fun for me. I enjoy learning about what makes specific gear sound the way it does. Every time I bought new I lost a significant amount of money by selling it on most recently my Minidsp sold at 60% of cost to me after 8 months of ownership. On the other hand I sold a pair of old speakers for more than I got them for.

 

[BigH]

Why are we discussing tea on a hifi forum? (rhetorical question) *scratch_one-s_head*

After someone mentioned a TV programme where families have thei regular brands swapped for cheap ones, I used it to make a point about personal preference being a major factor in this farce of a blind listening test! Clearly, the listeners weren't trying to detect the high end system - they were choosing which one they liked the sound of - a different requirement. You can put ANY two systems in there, and if people are choosing by personal preference, which they will be, the end choice could go either way.

Now if you take a real blind listening test, like those they hold at Harman by trained listeners, that's a different story.

Why do you need trained listeners? Do you need training to listen to music? Are most people trained who buy hifi?

 

[Gaz37]

Why are we discussing tea on a hifi forum? (rhetorical question) *scratch_one-s_head*

After someone mentioned a TV programme where families have thei regular brands swapped for cheap ones, I used it to make a point about personal preference being a major factor in this farce of a blind listening test! Clearly, the listeners weren't trying to detect the high end system - they were choosing which one they liked the sound of - a different requirement. You can put ANY two systems in there, and if people are choosing by personal preference, which they will be, the end choice could go either way.

Now if you take a real blind listening test, like those they hold at Harman by trained listeners, that's a different story.

Why do you need trained listeners? Do you need training to listen to music? Are most people trained who buy hifi?

It's another get out clause for people to claim superiority

"You don't know what you're listening for"

Seriously?

It either sounds good or it doesn't.

 

[davidf]

I think you need to upgrade the cable on the kettle. The cheap one that came supplied with the kettle isn't up to the job. IIt's probably not even shielded from the microwave. I suggest a super cable for improved flavour. I am sure your wife will walk in as the kettle is boiling and notice how the kettle whistles in a much clearer tone. Definitely the cable is the problem.

Naah ta.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I'm fussy about my tea, and now I only have those Yorkshire tea bags - in comparison to the usual PG etc, they're far better, producing a stronger cup of tea with some taste to it. Stick another cup of tea in front of me - it doesn't matter if you've used two PG Tips tea bags to make a stronger tea - I'll know.

I was a Yorkshire Tea man too until I bumped into a brand called Punjana, I've only ever seen it in bigger Tesco stores. Check it out, David, makes a lovely cuppa... it's the only tea I drink now *good* and No I'm not taking the pee.

 

[BigH]

I'm fussy about my tea, and now I only have those Yorkshire tea bags - in comparison to the usual PG etc, they're far better, producing a stronger cup of tea with some taste to it. Stick another cup of tea in front of me - it doesn't matter if you've used two PG Tips tea bags to make a stronger tea - I'll know.

I was a Yorkshire Tea man too until I bumped into a brand called Punjana, I've only ever seen it in bigger Tesco stores. Check it out, David, makes a lovely cuppa... it's the only tea I drink now *good* and No I'm not taking the pee.

I used to drink that as well as well as Clipper Original. But hardly touch the stuff now.

 

[BigH]

Had a look at Harman training and the guy who set it up found "research also indicates that when participants can see what they are hearing, their preferences often change profoundly."

ou can download if you want to do it.

 

[davidf]

I was a Yorkshire Tea man too until I bumped into a brand called Punjana, I've only ever seen it in bigger Tesco stores. Check it out, David, makes a lovely cuppa... it's the only tea I drink now *good* and No I'm not taking the pee.

Thanks, I'll give it a try