Is always thicker better? [Cable & Speaker Synergy]

[Vladimir]

There is an interaction between a speaker cable and a particular speaker. The location and depth of the dips in the frequency response depend on the speaker’s impedance and wire’s impedance. Each speaker design is different. For the wire’s impedance, thickness (gauge) of the conductor and the length of run from amp to speaker are the major concern. Counter intuitively, the higher the “gauge” of the wire, the thinner it is. So, a 24-gauge wire is half the diameter of a 12-gauge (and about one fourth the impedance). For comparison, common lamp cord, sometimes called “zip” cord, is 18 gauge.

There can be a synergy between a particular speaker and a particular speaker wire. For a while in England, there was a major discussion of how thin, single conductor, twisted pair wire sounded much “better” than the thick multi-stranded wire. Using high-end mini-monitor speakers, well controlled, volume-equalized, sighted and blind tests consistently came to that conclusion. However, it was determined that the extra resistance of the very thin wire changed the balance of the speakers in a very positive way: bass went up and treble went down. This gave all music a better foundation and non-fatiguing treble. A thick, multi-stranded wire with a resistor of the correct value now sounded the same as the thin wire. The thin wire even improved some vented systems if they were booming at the vent resonance.

Source: Does speaker wire affect the sound?

I'm gonna try 1.5mm instead of my 4mm speaker cable and hear if that makes a difference. Trying to fix a 70Hz bass hump in my room with cheaper wire. Has to work.

 

[chebby]

I'm gonna try 1.5mm instead of my 4mm speaker cable and hear if that makes a difference. Trying to fix a 70Hz bass hump in my room with cheaper wire. Has to work.

Okay I might (eventually) try some old QED Performance Original I still have in the cupboard. (2.5 square mm cross section) ...

clicky

 

[nopiano]

It might, Vlad, though I sense a degree of mischief in your post!

Here is my experience:- In the late '80s I won a pair of Celestion SL600 - the aerolam cabinet mini monitor speakers with early metal dome tweeters. They weren't over endowed with bass. To wit, I used DNM single core speaker cables and interconnect from pre (Meridian) to power amp (Musical Fidelity Studio T). They not only slightly tilted the treble down a shade but also gave a winning coherence over stranded cable.

They might be less useful in today's RF laden environment, but interference was never an issue at the time.

 

[Vladimir]

I'm gonna try 1.5mm instead of my 4mm speaker cable and hear if that makes a difference. Trying to fix a 70Hz bass hump in my room with cheaper wire. Has to work.

Okay I might (eventually) try some old QED Performance Original I still have in the cupboard. (2.5 square mm cross section) ...

clicky

I've ordered this Italian Tasker 16 AWG halogen something bla bla.

Found this on the official Yamaha site. Mine is 6.5ft (2m per side), so not an issue. [/i]

*Cable lengths more than 50 feet should be avoided even if the cable size is adequate, as the ability of wire to transfer high frequency sound is diminished regardless of the cable gauge[/i]. Best performance is achieved by moving the amplifier(s) closer to the speakers in order to reduce the speaker cable length.[/i]

[/i]

 

[Vladimir]

It might, Vlad, though I sense a degree of mischief in your post!

Here is my experience:- In the late '80s I won a pair of Celestion SL600 - the aerolam cabinet mini monitor speakers with early metal dome tweeters. They weren't over endowed with bass. To wit, I used DNM single core speaker cables and interconnect from pre (Meridian) to power amp (Musical Fidelity Studio T). They not only slightly tilted the treble down a shade but also gave a winning coherence over stranded cable.

They might be less useful in today's RF laden environment, but interference was never an issue at the time.

The basic premise here is playing with the gauge to hit some (slight) variation in impedance vs frequency interaction between speaker, cable and amp. What I desire is tight bass, but less of it, hoping to hear less room excitement at 70Hz (one speaker is near corner). Room height is 8ft, a curse. The speakers are well behaved but the room is being a *****.

I already got significan't improvement by raising the speakers few inches on 3 layers of marble slabs. I changed speaker gaskets to get better air seal, that improved things a pinch. Decided to try this cable gauge thing, but I have nothing under 12 AWG that's not oxidized CCA (Copper Clad Aluminium rubbish). So I ordered new ones.

According to Audioholics with 16 AWG on current hungry 4 ohm speakers I'll be edging the adequate, which is my intention. With 22 gauge lamp cord I got harmonica bass lmao... so terrible. I'm hoping 16 AWG won't do that or be shrill in the lower highs. I can live with rolled off top end since I hear nothing beyond 14.5kHz.

Also ordered some new fuses and professional cleaning and lubricating spray for potentiometers. It's hot outside so I get to play around with old kit indoors for a while.

PS

RFI is not an issue for me since I barely get phone signal in the valey, + sparsely populated neighborhood.

 

[Vladimir]

Conductor resistance 16 Ω/km = 0.016 Ω/m, so 0.032 Ω per side. Hmmm... we shall see (hear).

 

[insider9]

Trying to remove a room mode with a cable will only work if it's large, really thick, carefully positioned and made from fiberglass

 

[Vladimir]

Trying to remove a room mode with a cable will only work if it's large, really thick, carefully positioned and made from fiberglass

Unfortunately I can't use a bass trap in that corner.

 

[insider9]

Slight EQ perhaps. It's likely to affect everything up to 300 or so Hz but may be worth it. Do you know which dimension is causing the mode?

You'd need to be really lucky to have speaker impedance curve extreme at 70 Hz and then perhaps you may see some results with a different cable. Anyway at the price paid not really an issue and will be happy to read results achieved.

 

[Vladimir]

Slight EQ perhaps. It's likely to affect everything up to 300 or so Hz but may be worth it. Do you know which dimension is causing the mode?

You'd need to be really lucky to have speaker impedance curve extreme at 70 Hz and then perhaps you may see some results with a different cable. Anyway at the price paid not really an issue and will be happy to read results achieved.

In a frequency sweep at 70Hz-80Hz I get major boom in that one corner. Bass guitar notes hit it hard. Everything else isn't objectonable to my ears. Using the tone controls helps a bit, but the bass tone attenuates 100Hz and treble 10kHz, so not perfect.

I'm not saying a cable will solve it, but after trying a myriad of things some have brought improvements. I'm going for cummulative results. If no improvement, no big loss really, I get an extra usable cable for smaller speakers which I paid 7 quid delivered.

 

[insider9]

Every little helps. I made my bass traps using Rockwool I picked up locally as a guy had some left over and old bedding we had. They look good and make a big difference complementing the rest of my room treatment. I couldn't for the life of me get rid two humps at 42 and 58Hz so used EQ for that.

 

[Vladimir]

Lower frequency is harder to absorb. 70Hz-80Hz is managable with a chunky roll of rockwool, should knock off 3-5ish dB, bringing me to tolerable boom boom. But I have no space for it in that corner. Possibly in the future with some rearrangements.

I had no boom before adding flooring with double insulation (sound, temp, humidity). As soon as I hooked up the speakers, total shock. Easily 15-16dB amplitude. Raising the speakers on podiums really made a difference. Ideally I have 5-6db to get rid off and I'm good.

 

[Vladimir]

Good info at the AVForums.

I've noticed the wire used inside my speakers is ~1mm2. Why do we use garden hoze thick cables for 2-3m runs? Kinda nuts.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I did get a better more solid sound out of my opticon 8s when I changed to the audioquest rocket 33 do not ask me why but I have kept with that cable ever since and your right the cable inside a speaker is very thin it must be something to do with cable resistance that changes sound simple as that when buying cables I noticed it when I made some speaker jumpers up and took the standard gold links that Dali supply but went back to the Dali ones in the end as there was something about the sound I did not like .

what kind of speakers are you using and what is your floor made out of ? If they are floor standing speakers I've seen people use large thick chopping boards which can reduce the bass a little .

stand mounted speakers not sure unless you can feel the stands with something or a big rug on the floor can help a little you have to try these crazy ideas

 

[Vladimir]

Speakers are oldies in my vintage setup - Sony's (not my pic) built by Canton. Acoustic suspension cabinets, pretty flat on-axis. The flooring is thick french commercial grade laminate (I have big dogs) and I don't have fat rugs, don't really want/need them. I only have one problem in one corner, that's pretty much all.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Speakers are oldies in my vintage setup - Sony's (not my pic) built by Canton. Acoustic suspension cabinets, pretty flat on-axis. The flooring is thick french commercial grade laminate (I have big dogs) and I don't have fat rugs, don't really want/need them. I only have one problem in one corner, that's pretty much all.

change corners ? Swap that speaker that's in the corner that's causing the issue to the good corner and see if the other speaker does it then at least you have ruled out a speaker issue which I no there is not but you never know not sure how you can sort it to be honest I take it your still using the technics amplifier ? No issue there then

 

[Vladimir]

Did the speaker swap test last year, makes no difference. Right speaker is near a corner and the left is in the middle of the wall. So whatever speaker is in the corner is attenuated in the 70Hz region. Can't move them towards the middle more than I already have. Same issue with 3 different amplifiers. I can't use DSP on Google Chromecast. I'll have to rearange the room to free up that corner for a bass trap, eventually next year. Untill then I experiment with little things to get improvements.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Did the speaker swap test last year, makes no difference. Right speaker is near a corner and the left is in the middle of the wall. So whatever speaker is in the corner is attenuated in the 70Hz region. Can't move them towards the middle more than I already have. Same issue with 3 different amplifiers. I can't use DSP on Google Chromecast. I'll have to rearange the room to free up that corner for a bass trap, eventually next year. Untill then I experiment with little things to get improvements.

not everyone has the room for bass traps and very anti wife friendly as I've got away with a music setup and a home cinema in one room and the wife has not issued me with divorce papers yet*blum3*

 

[Vladimir]

Did the speaker swap test last year, makes no difference. Right speaker is near a corner and the left is in the middle of the wall. So whatever speaker is in the corner is attenuated in the 70Hz region. Can't move them towards the middle more than I already have. Same issue with 3 different amplifiers. I can't use DSP on Google Chromecast. I'll have to rearange the room to free up that corner for a bass trap, eventually next year. Untill then I experiment with little things to get improvements.

not everyone has the room for bass traps and very anti wife friendly as I've got away with a music setup and a home cinema in one room and the wife has not issued me with divorce papers yet*blum3*

Smart wives don't divorce husbands that play with adult toys at home. Start hanging out at bar poker games and see what happens.

Oh man, you should see how big a 70Hz bass trap is. Just YUGE. Well, if you want it to really make a difference it has to be chunky. Frequency under 100Hz is a pain to attenuate.

 

[nopiano]

Conductor resistance 16 Ω/km = 0.016 Ω/m, so 0.032 Ω per side. Hmmm... we shall see (hear).

Maybe placebo will work, then!?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Did the speaker swap test last year, makes no difference. Right speaker is near a corner and the left is in the middle of the wall. So whatever speaker is in the corner is attenuated in the 70Hz region. Can't move them towards the middle more than I already have. Same issue with 3 different amplifiers. I can't use DSP on Google Chromecast. I'll have to rearange the room to free up that corner for a bass trap, eventually next year. Untill then I experiment with little things to get improvements.

not everyone has the room for bass traps and very anti wife friendly as I've got away with a music setup and a home cinema in one room and the wife has not issued me with divorce papers yet*blum3*

Smart wives don't divorce husbands that play with adult toys at home. Start hanging out at bar poker games and see what happens.

Oh man, you should see how big a 70Hz bass trap is. Just YUGE. Well, if you want it to really make a difference it has to be chunky. Frequency under 100Hz is a pain to attenuate.

just been watching .audioholics videos on subwoofers and speakers them to guys are funny I watch a lot of the videos it's a good site for info

 

[rainsoothe]

It might, Vlad, though I sense a degree of mischief in your post!  

Here is my experience:-  In the late '80s I won a pair of Celestion SL600 - the aerolam cabinet mini monitor speakers with early metal dome tweeters.  They weren't over endowed with bass.  To wit, I used DNM single core speaker cables and interconnect from pre (Meridian) to power amp (Musical Fidelity Studio T).  They not only slightly tilted the treble down a shade but also gave a winning coherence over stranded cable. 

They might be less useful in today's RF laden environment, but interference was never an issue at the time.  

Had the same result, also with the DNM Reason. Switched to it from Audioquest Type 4 (also single wire, but thicker). The DNM solved the issues of my previous setup, and was tested against my AQ, and also Qed XT 40, Chord Rumour 2, and Naca5.

 

[Vladimir]

It might, Vlad, though I sense a degree of mischief in your post!

Here is my experience:- In the late '80s I won a pair of Celestion SL600 - the aerolam cabinet mini monitor speakers with early metal dome tweeters. They weren't over endowed with bass. To wit, I used DNM single core speaker cables and interconnect from pre (Meridian) to power amp (Musical Fidelity Studio T). They not only slightly tilted the treble down a shade but also gave a winning coherence over stranded cable.

They might be less useful in today's RF laden environment, but interference was never an issue at the time.

Had the same result, also with the DNM Reason. Switched to it from Audioquest Type 4 (also single wire, but thicker). The DNM solved the issues of my previous setup, and was tested against my AQ, and also Qed XT 40, Chord Rumour 2, and Naca5.

That's the principle I'm thinking of. DNM is notorious for intentionally "screwing up" cable characteristics. To some a desirable effect.

@insider @nopiano

Check this out.

 

[plastic penguin]

There is an interaction between a speaker cable and a particular speaker. The location and depth of the dips in the frequency response depend on the speaker’s impedance and wire’s impedance. Each speaker design is different. For the wire’s impedance, thickness (gauge) of the conductor and the length of run from amp to speaker are the major concern. Counter intuitively, the higher the “gauge” of the wire, the thinner it is. So, a 24-gauge wire is half the diameter of a 12-gauge (and about one fourth the impedance). For comparison, common lamp cord, sometimes called “zip” cord, is 18 gauge.

There can be a synergy between a particular speaker and a particular speaker wire. For a while in England, there was a major discussion of how thin, single conductor, twisted pair wire sounded much “better” than the thick multi-stranded wire. Using high-end mini-monitor speakers, well controlled, volume-equalized, sighted and blind tests consistently came to that conclusion. However, it was determined that the extra resistance of the very thin wire changed the balance of the speakers in a very positive way: bass went up and treble went down. This gave all music a better foundation and non-fatiguing treble. A thick, multi-stranded wire with a resistor of the correct value now sounded the same as the thin wire. The thin wire even improved some vented systems if they were booming at the vent resonance.

Source: Does speaker wire affect the sound?

I'm gonna try 1.5mm instead of my 4mm speaker cable and hear if that makes a difference. Trying to fix a 70Hz bass hump in my room with cheaper wire. Has to work.

Yes, speaker cables do make a difference. But.... in my humble opinion, it is minimal.

I've owned various thickness of speaker wires and it'll be decided by silver v copper and how that synergies with your system.

"Never mind the quality..."

 

[ellisdj]

Surely if your goal is to lean the bass out 5db at 70hz and that works how much is it leaning the rest out as well and is that what you want?

I am not sure as I have never tried but the corner you hear the bass might not be the only place you can to treat to reduce that audible nature of the bass.
Treating the rear wall or floor ceiling corners might do it.
Or you might need to do all of it to get a 5 db reduction in freq.
Its never as simple as one trap and job done.

Its more likely the decay of the bass note thats the issue.