Interconnect

[andyjm]

I don't consider the wholesale increase in gain a function of compression per-se (a pure compressor compresses the range), but is simple gain increase.

I agree that in ruining new tracks, they do both.

Tom,

There is a maximum loudness you can achieve on a digital system - 0dBfs (full scale). When your loudest peak is set to 0dBfs, then you can't increase the gain further without clipping the peaks. Clipping the peaks sounds dreadful, and unless you are into thrash metal, is best avoided.

The alternative to clipping is to leave the peaks at 0dBfs, but apply compression to the signal to increase the overall average level - and the perceived loudness. This is the basis of the loundess wars which have unfortunately plagued our hobby, and has lead to a dramatic reduction in dynamic range across modern recordings.

 

[BigH]

I don't consider the wholesale increase in gain a function of compression per-se (a pure compressor compresses the range), but is simple gain increase.

I agree that in ruining new tracks, they do both.

Tom,

There is a maximum loudness you can achieve on a digital system - 0dBfs (full scale). When your loudest peak is set to 0dBfs, then you can't increase the gain further without clipping the peaks. Clipping the peaks sounds dreadful, and unless you are into thrash metal, is best avoided.

The alternative to clipping is to leave the peaks at 0dBfs, but apply compression to the signal to increase the overall average level - and the perceived loudness. This is the basis of the loundess wars which have unfortunately plagued our hobby, and has lead to a dramatic reduction in dynamic range across modern recordings.

It is not on all music, pop and rock yes. Classical and jazz have been largely spared. Even a lot of specialy remastered albums don't have a great DR often only about 10, see MoFi remasters. I would have expected these to be greater.

 

[davedotco]

I feel that the crux of the issue is not being addressed here.

Popular music has always been compressed, sure it is more widely used in modern times, but I do not think that is what most enthusiasts find objectionable. The really objectionable noises come from 'digital clipping' described by Andyjm above and the use of particularly nasty forms of compression, such as 'side chain' compression.

'Digital clipping' appears to be deliberately used to give some forms of music a certain 'edge', sometimes it is just the bi-product of poor technique at the mastering stage. In either case it sounds disgusting.

'Side chain' compression is similarly unpleasant, it allows the music to be recorded at maximum level and then turns down the music whanever the vocalist (or, say, lead instument) is singing. Nasty.

 

[TomSawyer]

I don't consider the wholesale increase in gain a function of compression per-se (a pure compressor compresses the range), but is simple gain increase.

I agree that in ruining new tracks, they do both.

Tom,

There is a maximum loudness you can achieve on a digital system - 0dBfs (full scale). When your loudest peak is set to 0dBfs, then you can't increase the gain further without clipping the peaks. Clipping the peaks sounds dreadful, and unless you are into thrash metal, is best avoided.

The alternative to clipping is to leave the peaks at 0dBfs, but apply compression to the signal to increase the overall average level - and the perceived loudness. This is the basis of the loundess wars which have unfortunately plagued our hobby, and has lead to a dramatic reduction in dynamic range across modern recordings.

Andy, I think we're saying the same thing. Clipping does occur in lots of tracks (and does sound terrible). It's easy to spot in the waveform because it's squared off at full scale. My point earlier was that just that this isn't caused by compression but by gain increase. As you say, pure compression would not cause clipping, merely compression of the quitter passages to levels closer to full scale.

 

[pauln]

Epiphany Acoustics are v good value for money - see reviews on Hi Fi Pig

Sadly they have ceased trading. They were the sole UK distributors of the O2 headphone amp. Glad that I have got one.

 

[MajorFubar]

I'm being pedantic but compressors don't increase the level of the audio, the clue is in the name, they start to lower the level of the audio when it breaches a threshold you dial-in, by a factor you dial-in eg 2:1 or 4:1, so that the average level can be increased after compression. But to prove exception to every rule some compressors do include a make-up gain control to increase the overall level after the compresson, and a limiter to prevent clipping above 0dBfs.

 

[lindsayt]

So, these modern day talented individuals that know how to record, mix and produce.

Where do they learn how to keep their thumbs pressed on the big fat compression button?

All records need audio compression so the quiet parts aren't lost in the noise, so it started way back. Motown sounds better compressed because it's how you always heard it. MP3 at 128k is superior to vinyl in terms of signal to noise.

No they don't. Not for listening at home on a hi-fi system.

What they tend to need is different recording levels for the different instruments. So that vocals need to be recorded at a louder level than the drumkit to avoid them being drowned out in the mix.

OK you could argue that recording the drumkit at relatively low level and playing them back at less than a 1 to 1 ratio of in the studio to in the home volume is "compressing" them (in a loose definition of the term compression) - but that's way different to compressing every strand in the mix in the way it is done so often with modern CD's.

I was talking about vinyl and classical music. The signal to noise ratio of vinyl simply can't accommodate the massive dynamic range of a full orchestra, so the recordings are compressed specially for it. It's easy to hear the difference if you compare CD and vinyl on a good recording of say, Holst's Planet Suite.

If you were talking about vinyl and classical music, why did you say "All records need audio compression"?

Why didn't you say "all full orchestral works on vinyl need compression"?

Even then. I'm not sure that's true. Vinyl has a DIN weighted signal to noise ratio of over 70dbs.

That's sufficient for the dynamic range of any recorded sounds that I'd want to replay in my home, due to the 30 db background noise level plus me never wanting to listen at volumes peaking over 95 dbs. For the vast majority of the time I prefer peaks of less than 85 dbs.

 

[lindsayt]

MajorFubar, the simple fact of the matter is that compression has become so bad and so ubiquitous with 21st century mainstream CD's that you don't need any sort of professional background to be dismayed by it.

That's not what you said, what you said was 'I wouldn't hold the people involved in the modern day music recording, mixing and production industry as any sort of example when it comes to sound quality - including their choice of equipment and cabling'. They know more about equipment, cabling and production than most of us will ever know, including me, and I know more than most here.

If they know so much, how come the standard of the products they're coming out with are much worse than they were in the 1960's to 1980's?

Surely they should have built on that knowledge and be producing better recordings than in those days?

This seems to be where you and I differ. You seem to have respect for people in the music production business because they're "Professionals".

Whereas I have no respect for them because of the woefully poor products they've been producing for the last 15 years.

If I produced the amount of garbage that these so called "music production professionals" produce, I'd be thoroughly ashamed and embarassed.

 

[MajorFubar]

This seems to be where you and I differ. You seem to have respect for people in the music production business because they're "Professionals". Whereas I have no respect for them because of the woefully poor products they've been producing for the last 15 years.

Yeah that's because on this occasion you you haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about. You've no idea what goes on in a recording studio or how music is produced. It's a hugely skilled job. I don't always agree with what you say but usually I can respect your points of view. Strange for you to have such strong opinions about something you know nothing about, it's not really your style. I'd be happy to try to enlighten you if you wanted to learn, I know a lot about music production, though I'm no pro, but I've yet to meet anyone on this forum who wants to learn anything that conflicts with their entrenched opinions.

 

[MajorFubar]

It would be almost impossible to properly mix a song without controlling the dynamics of the instruments in some way.

 

[MajorFubar]

there were a few Telerac classical cds that came with warnings that may not have been compressed but there are very rare.

Yeah I've got a few of those Telarc CDs. They are excellent. But not very suitable for anything but headphone listening unless you have a dedicated listening room and no neighbours.

.

 

[BigH]

MajorFubar, the simple fact of the matter is that compression has become so bad and so ubiquitous with 21st century mainstream CD's that you don't need any sort of professional background to be dismayed by it.

That's not what you said, what you said was 'I wouldn't hold the people involved in the modern day music recording, mixing and production industry as any sort of example when it comes to sound quality - including their choice of equipment and cabling'. They know more about equipment, cabling and production than most of us will ever know, including me, and I know more than most here.

If they know so much, how come the standard of the products they're coming out with are much worse than they were in the 1960's to 1980's?

Surely they should have built on that knowledge and be producing better recordings than in those days?

This seems to be where you and I differ. You seem to have respect for people in the music production business because they're "Professionals".

Whereas I have no respect for them because of the woefully poor products they've been producing for the last 15 years.

If I produced the amount of garbage that these so called "music production professionals" produce, I'd be thoroughly ashamed and embarassed.

You still don't get it do you. Its not the recording its the mastering, they have been told to master it that way because most people don't play it on hifi systems, well that goes for rock/pop, for the car or earphones on the bus/train/street people want it louder. So you are saying classical and jazz is badly produced? Virtually all music is compressed, there were a few Telerc classical cds that came with warnings that may not have been compressed but they are very rare.

 

[Gaz37]

Wasn't there a blind test where some experts couldn't tell an expensive cable from a wire coathanger?

 

[spiny norman]

Wasn't there a blind test where some experts couldn't tell an expensive cable from a wire coathanger?

And that brings us back to doh-oh-oh-oh.

 

[kukulec]

what is your opinion about the audioquest tower and evergreen series?