Interconnect

[keeper of the quays]

I'm just polishing my qed silver anniversary cables! I'm using brasso..brasso for silver? I'm a rebel..

Too much of a rebel it would seem.  Use isopropyl alchohol, brasso leaves an anti tarnish residue that is non-conductive.  This might explain the problems you seem to be having with making your wires work...

Careful, some people do not believe in science or logic or any other ridiculous idea that shows their ideas and beliefs to be completely wrong.

a ridiculous belief is a comfort to the old and unloved.

 

[keeper of the quays]

I have the Leak tuner, currently I'm using a Sony budget amp with remote, A Pioneer CD recorder, A Philips 850 mk II CD player, an LG bluray, B&W 601 speakers, a BK sub and an antimode. Freebie interconnects and blue foo ones that I was given, Speaker cables are 2 runs of 79 strand in parallel. The tuner is the best sounding one I've heard.

For once,  think there may be something in the "You're system isn't revealing enough to show cable differences" argument.

I really don't like 601's.

They are very good now the bass is filled in by the fully room compensated sub. Sounded a bit thin before. They are revealing though, lovely mid range and treble. These are mark 1 BTW.

What have you compared your 601's + sub against?

Any electrostatics? Any full sized sealed boxes? Any full sized high efficiency designs?

For me, the engineering content simply isn't there in the 601's for them to be relatively enjoyable speakers.

A friend's Quad electrostatics, nice mid and top end, very lacking bottom end, Ditton 44, good punchy bass but a bit spitty and lack smoothness on classical, A friend's Leak 2060s, wonderful all round but too large a footprint for my room at the time, Leak mini Sandwich poor treble, had some a year, Ditton 15, poor treble, had some for a few years, Wharfedale Melton, parents had them, very nice but not special, plus hundreds in systems that I was repairing various bits of but not listening to in any meaningful way. I haven't heard a system that beats my current one, the subwoofer bass once it was equalized by the Antimode is just incredible and there was never anything wrong with the top end of the 601.

blimey Trev, I have misjudged you..your a dude! With all this equipment you have listened to? You chose a Sony amp? Wow...its weirdly cool..your adherence to the absurd..your a cool dude..sorry but your opinions for me are valueless..as you can't hear anything resembling nuance? But your the cool dude all the same.

 

[keeper of the quays]

I'm just polishing my qed silver anniversary cables! I'm using brasso..brasso for silver? I'm a rebel..

Too much of a rebel it would seem.  Use isopropyl alchohol, brasso leaves an anti tarnish residue that is non-conductive.  This might explain the problems you seem to be having with making your wires work...

My wires work lovely! Are you gentleman with the krell? If so? I'll up my offer..roksan cdp/amp dynaudio 42 and my middle range LFD interconnects! How's that for a offer? I'll polish those ribbon things so they shine like the sun!

 

[Electro]

BTW the cables system show down between me and Electro was yesterday.

Should I start a new thread or keep it in this one?

This one is very long

It's like standing on the scaffold with the hangmans noose around my neck waiting for the floor to open whilst straining to hear the sound of the messenger coming to bring a pardon from the king.*shok* . *angel* or *diablo* *biggrin*

 

[TrevC]

I have the Leak tuner, currently I'm using a Sony budget amp with remote, A Pioneer CD recorder, A Philips 850 mk II CD player, an LG bluray, B&W 601 speakers, a BK sub and an antimode. Freebie interconnects and blue foo ones that I was given, Speaker cables are 2 runs of 79 strand in parallel. The tuner is the best sounding one I've heard.

For once, think there may be something in the "You're system isn't revealing enough to show cable differences" argument.

I really don't like 601's.

They are very good now the bass is filled in by the fully room compensated sub. Sounded a bit thin before. They are revealing though, lovely mid range and treble. These are mark 1 BTW.

What have you compared your 601's + sub against?

Any electrostatics? Any full sized sealed boxes? Any full sized high efficiency designs?

For me, the engineering content simply isn't there in the 601's for them to be relatively enjoyable speakers.

A friend's Quad electrostatics, nice mid and top end, very lacking bottom end, Ditton 44, good punchy bass but a bit spitty and lack smoothness on classical, A friend's Leak 2060s, wonderful all round but too large a footprint for my room at the time, Leak mini Sandwich poor treble, had some a year, Ditton 15, poor treble, had some for a few years, Wharfedale Melton, parents had them, very nice but not special, plus hundreds in systems that I was repairing various bits of but not listening to in any meaningful way. I haven't heard a system that beats my current one, the subwoofer bass once it was equalized by the Antimode is just incredible and there was never anything wrong with the top end of the 601.

blimey Trev, I have misjudged you..your a dude! With all this equipment you have listened to? You chose a Sony amp? Wow...its weirdly cool..your adherence to the absurd..your a cool dude..sorry but your opinions for me are valueless..as you can't hear anything resembling nuance? But your the cool dude all the same.

I happened upon the Sony amp. I didn't choose it, I ended up with it by chance as part of a deal. It is as good as any other amp of similar power and has a motorised volume pot with perfect balance even at the lowest setting, a considerable achievement at the price it was sold for, one that a number of far more expensive amps that I have encountered struggle with.

It's you're a cool dude, by the way. Lazy English is annoying.

 

[ellisdj]

BTW the cables system show down between me and Electro was yesterday.

Should I start a new thread or keep it in this one?

This one is very long

It's like standing on the scaffold with the hangmans noose around my neck waiting for the floor to open whilst straining to hear the sound of the messenger coming to bring a pardon from the king.*shok* . *angel* or *diablo* *biggrin*

Electro no need to fear dude, I am 6 pages in of criticsm - just getting to the positives 🙂

Only kidding I have had no time at all since yesterday - thats a 5 hour + listening session on a school day for you. I will get it to as quick as I can.

Do you want a long version or a short version??

 

[Electro]

BTW the cables system show down between me and Electro was yesterday.

Should I start a new thread or keep it in this one?

This one is very long

It's like standing on the scaffold with the hangmans noose around my neck waiting for the floor to open whilst straining to hear the sound of the messenger coming to bring a pardon from the king.*shok* . *angel* or *diablo* *biggrin*

Electro no need to fear dude, I am 6 pages in of criticsm - just getting to the positives 🙂

Only kidding I have had no time at all since yesterday - thats a 5 hour + listening session on a school day for you. I will get it to as quick as I can.

Do you want a long version or a short version??

I don't mind, just tell it like it is .

 

[davedotco]

A sentiment I can wholeheartedly agree with...*biggrin*

 

[ellisdj]

BTW the cables system show down between me and Electro was yesterday.

Should I start a new thread or keep it in this one?

This one is very long

It's like standing on the scaffold with the hangmans noose around my neck waiting for the floor to open whilst straining to hear the sound of the messenger coming to bring a pardon from the king.*shok* . *angel* or *diablo* *biggrin*

Electro no need to fear dude, I am 6 pages in of criticsm - just getting to the positives 🙂

Only kidding I have had no time at all since yesterday - thats a 5 hour + listening session on a school day for you. I will get it to as quick as I can.

Do you want a long version or a short version??

I don't mind, just tell it like it is .

Short version I had a really good time, thank you for having me over, I really enjoyed listening to your system which is what its all about as we know, I kept wanting to try different content out to see what it was like on it - very good sign. I liked your PMC speakers a lot actually and the kit you have chosen is all top knotch, and it all works really well together.

I dont want to ruin the long version, not that I have even started it yet but looking back when we made the cables change we must have listened for a good few hours non stop, that time flew by and I was really absorbed into the music and I could have listened to that sound all day. Not taking anything away from before the change or after I still enjoyed listening to that sound a lot and the last song was an amazing way to finish that session, that was pretty epic I dont mind admitting.

What I am hoping to show you when you come here is hopefully how much meat I have got on the bones of everything.

For example try and remember how These Bones Sounded - the Ghospel song and wait until you hear that here. That is all the work I have done to the Audio PC and room acoustics and the Cabling nothing else. I am not sure if you will like my overall sound, its different to yours but I am hoping it will support things I have said on here.

I learnt a bit from yesterday in terms of presentation and what I now know I like which is what it is all about hearing different systems / setups. The Katherine Jenkins songs we listened to were sounding Really Good, I was super impressed by them - but that was during the cable change period, hence my point before.

Thanks very much again Electro for having me over, I really appreciate it

BTW DavidVann on here is the David I was telling you about who is my good pal, I think he would really like to hear your system and thanks for the invite for him, you can meet him when you come here which will hopefully be soon. Just sorting out a few loose ends and will let you know

 

[keeper of the quays]

I have the Leak tuner, currently I'm using a Sony budget amp with remote, A Pioneer CD recorder, A Philips 850 mk II CD player, an LG bluray, B&W 601 speakers, a BK sub and an antimode. Freebie interconnects and blue foo ones that I was given, Speaker cables are 2 runs of 79 strand in parallel. The tuner is the best sounding one I've heard.

For once,  think there may be something in the "You're system isn't revealing enough to show cable differences" argument.

I really don't like 601's.

They are very good now the bass is filled in by the fully room compensated sub. Sounded a bit thin before. They are revealing though, lovely mid range and treble. These are mark 1 BTW.

What have you compared your 601's + sub against?

Any electrostatics? Any full sized sealed boxes? Any full sized high efficiency designs?

For me, the engineering content simply isn't there in the 601's for them to be relatively enjoyable speakers.

A friend's Quad electrostatics, nice mid and top end, very lacking bottom end, Ditton 44, good punchy bass but a bit spitty and lack smoothness on classical, A friend's Leak 2060s, wonderful all round but too large a footprint for my room at the time, Leak mini Sandwich poor treble, had some a year, Ditton 15, poor treble, had some for a few years, Wharfedale Melton, parents had them, very nice but not special, plus hundreds in systems that I was repairing various bits of but not listening to in any meaningful way. I haven't heard a system that beats my current one, the subwoofer bass once it was equalized by the Antimode is just incredible and there was never anything wrong with the top end of the 601.

blimey Trev, I have misjudged you..your a dude! With all this equipment you have listened to? You chose a Sony amp? Wow...its weirdly cool..your adherence to the absurd..your a cool dude..sorry but your opinions for me are valueless..as you can't hear anything resembling nuance? But your the cool dude all the same.

I happened upon the Sony amp. I didn't choose it, I ended up with it by chance as part of a deal. It is as good as any other amp of similar power and has a motorised volume pot with perfect balance even at the lowest setting, a considerable achievement at the price it was sold for, one that a number of far more expensive amps that I have encountered struggle with. 

It's you're a cool dude, by the way. Lazy English is annoying.

 

oh gawd! Your going all spiny on me? I blame my phone..nokia led me astray..there was i..revaluating my position and the Nokia saw i was most taken up with these notions..and made it's move..even though you dislike lazy English? Which is fair enough! Your views on hifi based on listening to your kit..i can't in all conscious condone..apologies dude..

 

[TomSawyer]

I think from reading this, you changed an interconnect. Do you each think you heard a difference?

 

[ellisdj]

Let me a do a write up please - it will mean a bit more - changing 1 interconnect does not set the scene properly, Electro system is complex.

Please bear with me got a lot on

 

[MajorFubar]

I wouldn't hold the people involved in the modern day music recording, mixing and production industry as any sort of example when it comes to sound quality - including their choice of equipment and cabling.

Unless you have some kind of music production background and this is you expressing professional displeasure at current trends and techniques, then I'm sorry to say that on this occasion you really do not have the slightest idea what the hell you are talking about. How many times have you miked-up a drum kit? Or a piano? Or a string quartet? Or even just one guitar and singer? How do you EQ a snare? How would you approach EQ'ing female vocals? How would you mix a rock band? Usually I respect your views but this time I'm not sure what you're smoking.

 

[kukulec]

Do you have experience with the Monster iCable 1000? I am told by the hi-fi shop that it represents a better quality than QED QE5091.

 

[lindsayt]

Pop music has always been compressed. It's nothing new. Everything you hear on the radio, even FM, is compressed.

It's a question of degrees. In the 21st century excessive compression on mainstream rock and pop music has become ubiquitous. Compression is used to a greater degree on far more albums than it was in the 1960's to 1980's.

I don't have a huge issue with radio stations compressing their broadcasts to make them acceptable to people in cars or noisy factories.

I do have an issue with so many modern CD's being so compressed when I listen to them at home on my hi-fi.

 

[lindsayt]

So, these modern day talented individuals that know how to record, mix and produce.

Where do they learn how to keep their thumbs pressed on the big fat compression button?

All records need audio compression so the quiet parts aren't lost in the noise, so it started way back. Motown sounds better compressed because it's how you always heard it. MP3 at 128k is superior to vinyl in terms of signal to noise.

No they don't. Not for listening at home on a hi-fi system.

What they tend to need is different recording levels for the different instruments. So that vocals need to be recorded at a louder level than the drumkit to avoid them being drowned out in the mix.

OK you could argue that recording the drumkit at relatively low level and playing them back at less than a 1 to 1 ratio of in the studio to in the home volume is "compressing" them (in a loose definition of the term compression) - but that's way different to compressing every strand in the mix in the way it is done so often with modern CD's.

 

[lindsayt]

Unless you have some kind of music production background and this is you expressing professional displeasure at current trends and techniques, then I'm sorry to say that on this occasion you really do not have the slightest idea what the hell you are talking about. How many times have you miked-up a drum kit? Or a piano? Or a string quartet? Or even just one guitar and singer? How do you EQ a snare? How would you approach EQ'ing female vocals? How would you mix a rock band? Usually I respect your views but this time I'm not sure what you're smoking.

MajorFubar, the simple fact of the matter is that compression has become so bad and so ubiquitous with 21st century mainstream CD's that you don't need any sort of professional background to be dismayed by it.

All you need is to listen to a variety of albums on a hi-fi system to realise how bad compression has become.

The long term trend is blindingly obvious if you look at the DR rating of each of the best selling albums in the UK over the last 55 years.

A trend that is backed up by listening to a selection of these albums.

Would you like me to list these DR ratings?

I'll do it in a separate thread.

I find it quite disappointing that anyone can defend the modern trend for excessive compression.

 

[keeper of the quays]

With the preverlance of decent headphones about you would think that people would notice? The hifi Dinosaurs notice as we listen more carefully with usually better kit! Mp3s really are quite good on revealing headphones that no one is going to notice anything? And even some classical music sounds bit more zippy with compression! You need to be a critical listener to hear the difference anyway and most people aren't..I'm a critical listener and I don't mind compression too much! 🙂

 

[MajorFubar]

MajorFubar, the simple fact of the matter is that compression has become so bad and so ubiquitous with 21st century mainstream CD's that you don't need any sort of professional background to be dismayed by it.

That's not what you said, what you said was 'I wouldn't hold the people involved in the modern day music recording, mixing and production industry as any sort of example when it comes to sound quality - including their choice of equipment and cabling'. They know more about equipment, cabling and production than most of us will ever know, including me, and I know more than most here.

 

[Pedro2]

Epiphany Acoustics are v good value for money - see reviews on Hi Fi Pig

 

[TomSawyer]

As I read these threads, it seems to me that there is quite a bit of confusion regarding terms. It might be helpful to agree what each is so if I say what I think, others can correct where I'm wrong.

Compression, in the context of mixing/mastering - is the artificial increase of naturally quiet parts of the track to keep the playback volume high throughout to avoid parts of the song being lost to ambient noise when played. For example, in the car, workplace or noisy home.

Compression, in the context of MP3s or similar is the compression of the data using an algorithm to reduce the file size dramatically. Nothing to do with compression above but seems often confused.

Mixing - incorporating differently recorded parts (either recorded at the same time with different mics or DI or at a different time) and adjusting the relative volumes to achieve a desirable finished track.

Limiting - reducing the maximum level or rate of increase - sometimes necessary on vinyl mastering to avoid the stylus undergoing an assault course.

Contradict/add to as appropriate please.

 

[andyjm]

As I read these threads, it seems to me that there is quite a bit of confusion regarding terms. It might be helpful to agree what each is so if I say what I think, others can correct where I'm wrong.

Compression, in the context of mixing/mastering - is the artificial increase of naturally quiet parts of the track to keep the playback volume high throughout to avoid parts of the song being lost to ambient noise when played. For example, in the car, workplace or noisy home.

Compression, in the context of MP3s or similar is the compression of the data using an algorithm to reduce the file size dramatically. Nothing to do with compression above but seems often confused.

Mixing - incorporating differently recorded parts (either recorded at the same time with different mics or DI or at a different time) and adjusting the relative volumes to achieve a desirable finished track.

Limiting - reducing the maximum level or rate of increase - sometimes necessary on vinyl mastering to avoid the stylus undergoing an assault course.

Contradict/add to as appropriate please.

Tom,

I would add to your first definition of compression something along the lines of:

There as (apparently) a tendency for listeners to prefer music that is played louder. In an attempt to make their track stand out from the crowd, their has been a recent history of tracks being mixed using compression not just to avoid losing quiet sections of the music in ambient noise, but to increase the perceived loudness of the track. This has been at the expense of dynamic range and listening pleasure when listened to in a quiet environment.

 

[BigH]

As I read these threads, it seems to me that there is quite a bit of confusion regarding terms. It might be helpful to agree what each is so if I say what I think, others can correct where I'm wrong.

Compression, in the context of mixing/mastering - is the artificial increase of naturally quiet parts of the track to keep the playback volume high throughout to avoid parts of the song being lost to ambient noise when played. For example, in the car, workplace or noisy home.

Compression, in the context of MP3s or similar is the compression of the data using an algorithm to reduce the file size dramatically. Nothing to do with compression above but seems often confused.

Mixing - incorporating differently recorded parts (either recorded at the same time with different mics or DI or at a different time) and adjusting the relative volumes to achieve a desirable finished track.

Limiting - reducing the maximum level or rate of increase - sometimes necessary on vinyl mastering to avoid the stylus undergoing an assault course.

Contradict/add to as appropriate please.

Tom,

I would add to your first definition of compression something along the lines of:

There as (apparently) a tendency for listeners to prefer music that is played louder. In an attempt to make their track stand out from the crowd, their has been a recent history of tracks being mixed using compression not just to avoid losing quiet sections of the music in ambient noise, but to increase the perceived loudness of the track. This has been at the expense of dynamic range and listening pleasure when listened to in a quiet environment.

Yes I agree its not just the quiet parts, they have been increased more so the difference between the quiet and loud is small or nonexistent but the whole lot has been increased to make it louder, thats why there is so much clipping on some music.

 

[TomSawyer]

Yes I agree its not just the quiet parts, they have been increased more so the difference between the quiet and loud is small or nonexistent but the whole lot has been increased to make it louder, thats why there is so much clipping on some music.

I don't consider the wholesale increase in gain a function of compression per-se (a pure compressor compresses the range), but is simple gain increase.

I agree that in ruining new tracks, they do both.

 

[TrevC]

So, these modern day talented individuals that know how to record, mix and produce.

Where do they learn how to keep their thumbs pressed on the big fat compression button?

All records need audio compression so the quiet parts aren't lost in the noise, so it started way back. Motown sounds better compressed because it's how you always heard it. MP3 at 128k is superior to vinyl in terms of signal to noise.

No they don't. Not for listening at home on a hi-fi system.

What they tend to need is different recording levels for the different instruments. So that vocals need to be recorded at a louder level than the drumkit to avoid them being drowned out in the mix.

OK you could argue that recording the drumkit at relatively low level and playing them back at less than a 1 to 1 ratio of in the studio to in the home volume is "compressing" them (in a loose definition of the term compression) - but that's way different to compressing every strand in the mix in the way it is done so often with modern CD's.

I was talking about vinyl and classical music. The signal to noise ratio of vinyl simply can't accommodate the massive dynamic range of a full orchestra, so the recordings are compressed specially for it. It's easy to hear the difference if you compare CD and vinyl on a good recording of say, Holst's Planet Suite.