Yes agree and bookshelf’s you can get more for your money too if bass not so important. For my tastes I couldn’t live with harbeth but Obviously each to their own. But I do think the types of speakers i list are more universal to more music genres. Somehow electronic stuff from tosca, boards of Canada, the prodigy and aphex twin that I listen too probably wouldn’t sound great and as dynamic on harbeth. But what I love with pmc’s is the dynamics, depth of bass, and punch, then detail as well, that means I can put on acoustic nick drake, a female vocal, Mozart, then a bit of prodigy and it all sounds good. Same as if had those dt8s.my music tastes are too wide in genres to buy a speaker just for acoustic, classical, etc, but if you do have tastes predominantly in certain areas, I can see it’s game set and match for a choice like harbeth.
jonathanRD said:
Answered above in my answer to Quest.
If the majority of the music you listen to, is mid-range dependant, Standmounts will work very well and often image better, are more articulate and have greater speed, than Floorstanders (provided they are not in a very big room). You can always get another BK Sub to fill in for Bass Driven music, if necessary.
Why would buying speakers with a more extended bass output affect the mid range.CnoEvil said:
I was talking about the comments on buying a speaker for the room size. If the bass is managed properly you wont have too much.
If you dont have enough you dont have enough cant be fixed
ellisdj said:
I was talking the other way round. ie. If you like the way the Harbeth's Midrange sounds - you can't achieve that from another brand, no matter how much bass it has - as that sound is unique to Harbeth.
I am of the view that speakers can over power a room, or get lost in a room. There is a middle area, which can be made larger with room treatment/EQ.
You are fanatical about bass quality and there is nothing wrong with that. My number one priority is to get a great midrange and then maximize the bass.
To quote J Gorden Holt, Stereophile magazine founder and the father of observational audio equipment evaluation, "If the midrange isn't right, nothing else matters."
The room size is 15X12 but the speakers are now firing across the room rather than down. The only bass produced by the S4 in that position was very deep with a few hot nodes and pretty much nothing else, the tweeter also fired over the top of my head. As ellisdj says not enough bass is a big problem but so is too much when it gets out of position and control. If you go the PMC or similar route your dealer should advise on the right ones for your listening room.
nopiano
Well-known member
Jonathan, I covered quite a few models earlier this year in this thread. Not quite as succinct as Quest's list, but you might find it interesting.jonathanRD said:
https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/floorstanders-around-ps3000-tale-two-speakers
I think it’s possible to get a speaker that competes in all areas of detail retrieval/ good midrange, midrange dynamics/speed, bass depth and speed. So buying a speaker is a balance of everything. Going back to recommendations for Jonathan, I think with harbeth, if you find they don’t do bass dynamics as well for arguments sake (which is my perception)but the midrange is really good, my recommendation would be to look to see if you can get speakers that do everything at a good level. The reason being the speaker will have more balance, and therefore be more real for the music it conveys.
If you’ve got a speaker that lacks detail over another the music becomes less involving because you can’t hear the instruments in a pleasing way, nor can you hear the layers in the music too. Similarly tight bass dynamics, which is often not considered in a speaker. My attitude is don’t so much worry about bass depth in a speaker (you can’t create concert hall bass or recording studio bass at home) and most good speakers around these prices go deep anyway but with bass dynamics the speed at which a speaker gets on say a bass guitar or drum beat, and then off again, is hugely important to making music real. This is one thing that can vary a lot between a very good speaker and a less good one. As with detail retrieval. Lazy bass dynamics gets us comparatively to the boy racer car stereo and lacking detail, like a blanket in front of the speaker. So If you are talking about maximising bass cnoevil and maybe not bass dynamics, this quality of bass dynamics is huge in replicating how music sounds and I think should be sought in a speaker.
If you’ve got a speaker that lacks detail over another the music becomes less involving because you can’t hear the instruments in a pleasing way, nor can you hear the layers in the music too. Similarly tight bass dynamics, which is often not considered in a speaker. My attitude is don’t so much worry about bass depth in a speaker (you can’t create concert hall bass or recording studio bass at home) and most good speakers around these prices go deep anyway but with bass dynamics the speed at which a speaker gets on say a bass guitar or drum beat, and then off again, is hugely important to making music real. This is one thing that can vary a lot between a very good speaker and a less good one. As with detail retrieval. Lazy bass dynamics gets us comparatively to the boy racer car stereo and lacking detail, like a blanket in front of the speaker. So If you are talking about maximising bass cnoevil and maybe not bass dynamics, this quality of bass dynamics is huge in replicating how music sounds and I think should be sought in a speaker.
Mac listened to a lot of speakers and settled on Harbeth - they were right for him.
Everything comes down to compromise, system synergy and what characteristics you wish to prioritize - unless you have millionaire money.
The two approaches could be seen as:
1. Prioritizing the music ie. Audio Note
2. Prioritizing accuracy, neutrality, detail and measurements. ie. ATC / Bryston
The above two points aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but certainly can be.
I find my little LS50s are very engaging - and have enough bass so they get by. More bass depth is preferable, as long as one doesn't lose their strengths.
Everything comes down to compromise, system synergy and what characteristics you wish to prioritize - unless you have millionaire money.
The two approaches could be seen as:
1. Prioritizing the music ie. Audio Note
2. Prioritizing accuracy, neutrality, detail and measurements. ie. ATC / Bryston
The above two points aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but certainly can be.
I find my little LS50s are very engaging - and have enough bass so they get by. More bass depth is preferable, as long as one doesn't lose their strengths.
davidf
Well-known member
I'm also of the opinion that some speakers can be too big for a room as well, regardless of EQ/treatment. Some speakers just need a certain amount of space, and some need a certain volume level to sound "right", which can be a little to much for the room.
plastic penguin
Well-known member
davidf said:
Totally agree. It's often overlooked when looking for speakers. That said, given modern standmounts are so deep (generalising) and most have rear ports of some description, a compact floorstander can be a tantalising alternative.
Deleted previous post as a bit rambling
my point was I think it’s possible not to have to think of it as compromising in any given area on a speaker against a much more expensive one, just that some speakers generally perform better in all areas at the higher price to the lower price ones. Ie you aren’t compromising in a given area but just look for the best of everything you can get at the price.
My speakers don’t compromise in any given area against the pmc fact 12, the fact 12 just do the same everywhere but better. like you could apply same thinking between ls50 and blades. They each have a good balance of everything for their price point. You can’t say the kef ls50 compromises on mid range against the blade, as the kef ls50 does midrange very good at its price, as does the blade.
my point was I think it’s possible not to have to think of it as compromising in any given area on a speaker against a much more expensive one, just that some speakers generally perform better in all areas at the higher price to the lower price ones. Ie you aren’t compromising in a given area but just look for the best of everything you can get at the price.
My speakers don’t compromise in any given area against the pmc fact 12, the fact 12 just do the same everywhere but better. like you could apply same thinking between ls50 and blades. They each have a good balance of everything for their price point. You can’t say the kef ls50 compromises on mid range against the blade, as the kef ls50 does midrange very good at its price, as does the blade.
postup_crni
Well-known member
REPLY to #48, JonathanRD
Jonathan,
If you are into vocal music and smaller combos, jazz, etc., you should consider Harbeth, particularly Super HLP+ and maybe Monitor 30.1. The newer "+" model is more detailed and open than the previous version (listened to both models, same dealer, same NAIM combo). Monitor 30.1 could be also interesting, but I preferred SHLP. Super HLP+ should be able to fill a room of up to 25m2, easily. Spendors (Classic range) should be similar, but I haven't listened to them recently.
May I also suggest checking Martin Logan EM ESL (X)? I suggest those because of your music taste and budget, but you also mentioned you have enough space for speaker placement (MLs should be about 60-90 cm from the front wall, positioned along the longer side of the room, you should sit away from the back wall).
Just to make it more complicated, I also liked PMC 20-23 and 20-24, but certainly less so than MLs or Harbeths. No idea of the new 25-23/24. They do a lot different things well, however, I did not go for them in the end. "Good, but scholarly, let's move on!" (my wife, at the end of the session ... ).
In the end, I think THE most important is to find a speaker that suits your room. Over last 3 years and 3 different rooms (no change of amp-CD), my speakers (Martin Logan EM ESL) sounded to me anywhere from sublime to so-so to despair and "darling, it's time I purchased new speakers" ... I re-discovered them only because I had a room to myself (converted garage), could play with their positioning and there were no limits regarding whatever I glued to the wall ... And yes, I have little limitations regarding the sound level.
If your speakers will be placed in the living room, you will have to consider many (non-changeable) factors and should choose from whatever sounds good in there.
postup
Jonathan,
If you are into vocal music and smaller combos, jazz, etc., you should consider Harbeth, particularly Super HLP+ and maybe Monitor 30.1. The newer "+" model is more detailed and open than the previous version (listened to both models, same dealer, same NAIM combo). Monitor 30.1 could be also interesting, but I preferred SHLP. Super HLP+ should be able to fill a room of up to 25m2, easily. Spendors (Classic range) should be similar, but I haven't listened to them recently.
May I also suggest checking Martin Logan EM ESL (X)? I suggest those because of your music taste and budget, but you also mentioned you have enough space for speaker placement (MLs should be about 60-90 cm from the front wall, positioned along the longer side of the room, you should sit away from the back wall).
Just to make it more complicated, I also liked PMC 20-23 and 20-24, but certainly less so than MLs or Harbeths. No idea of the new 25-23/24. They do a lot different things well, however, I did not go for them in the end. "Good, but scholarly, let's move on!" (my wife, at the end of the session ... ).
In the end, I think THE most important is to find a speaker that suits your room. Over last 3 years and 3 different rooms (no change of amp-CD), my speakers (Martin Logan EM ESL) sounded to me anywhere from sublime to so-so to despair and "darling, it's time I purchased new speakers" ... I re-discovered them only because I had a room to myself (converted garage), could play with their positioning and there were no limits regarding whatever I glued to the wall ... And yes, I have little limitations regarding the sound level.
If your speakers will be placed in the living room, you will have to consider many (non-changeable) factors and should choose from whatever sounds good in there.
postup
CnoEvil said:
Only reason I am is because if the bass isnt right nothing else sounds right - its all important at the end of the day.
I just think the approach people used in "hifi" to fixing issues of trying to reduce bass problems is backwards thinking and I trying to encourage people to look at it differently.
Once you do you will never ever go back
Thats the opposite of true CNo - Good bass is essential as bad bass ruins the song or movie because it stands out like a sore thumb because its so powerful.
Hence people try and reduce that problem by reducing their bass overall by trying to stop the speakers interacting with the room - moving them out into the room etc.
That doesnt fix the problem and can also make for a lean and dry and clinical sound - a hifi sound. I am not being critical or an ass here just talking with an honest hat on
Hence people try and reduce that problem by reducing their bass overall by trying to stop the speakers interacting with the room - moving them out into the room etc.
That doesnt fix the problem and can also make for a lean and dry and clinical sound - a hifi sound. I am not being critical or an ass here just talking with an honest hat on
ellisdj said:
If our 2 tastes were a venn diagramme....where the circles overlap, we do have agreement...Kef Refs/MF....but as we move away from that, we have different priorities (which doesn't mean that I think getting the bass right isn't very important - as it can screw up your sound).
ellisdj said:
It's a confusing sentance, with a double negative (as in, it doesn't mean I don't *scratch_one-s_head* )- which basically means that I'm saying that poor bass can ruin the sound. We are in agreement.
jonathanRD
Well-known member
nopiano said:
Thank you, I will take a look when I get a chance, been away with work, and currently sat in Gloucester RS due to a broken down train *preved*
jonathanRD
Well-known member
paulkebab said:
Cheers Paul, my room is 15 x 12 so I guess IPL's advice should be heeded. I'd be interested in hearing how you get on with the S2TLK when you have finished them.
jonathanRD
Well-known member
jonathanRD
Well-known member
postup_crni said:
Thanks postup, my listening room is soley for music and films, and I have no restriction on volume, and some leeway to stick things on walls. Our living room is elsewhere in the house. Lots of great suggestions, the difficulty will be home demoing them all *smile*
I had a few hours time with the S2tlm's today and they are far better suited than the S4's. Midrange has more presence and bass is now firmly in front of my listening position instead of behind. I've had to remove the drivers to apply the veneer which won't be finished until next week so running in and setting up will have to wait. The only problem going with IPL is you cannot demo, it's purely buy, build and hope you like them. Ivan does give details on how to alter the midrange and treble response, and also how to reduce bass output slightly. I think if you like the PMC sound then you'll be ok, just make sure you call him to explain your room size etc.
jonathanRD
Well-known member
paulkebab said:
Thanks Paul, there is always the option to demo them in Gloucester (IQ Speakers) but building them myself appeals to me if I could find the time, and finish everything else in the house first that is on my wife's list *smile*
I would have to demo other speakers first to get a feel for what I can get for the money before weighing that up against a DIY build. Ultimately it would be VFM versus getting something that I wouldn't want to upgrade or change a few years later.
chris_bates1974
Well-known member
A couple of posts in this thread mentioning these... they do look absolutely stunning, but as far as I can find out, only one retailer in the whole of England. If anyone knows of any others, or has actually heard a pair and give us a bit of a review, it would be really interesting.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Al ears
Well-known member
chris_bates1974 said:
Stunning looking aren't they. Correction: there are at least two dealers, Audio Oasis Hampshire and Big Ears audio in Cornwall
chris_bates1974 said:
It is often me that mentions Diapason. They are stocked in Kronos AV in Northern Ireland (where I Live).
They are nicely summed up by these What Hi-Fi Reviews (Refined/Sweet/Fluid):
https://www.whathifi.com/diapason/astera/review
https://www.whathifi.com/diapason/karis/review
They are speakers for enjoying music rather than analyzing it.
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