If i Bi-Wire my speakers, what is the power going to each? rms/2 ?

[hoopsontoast]

But it doesnt, most crossovers are parallel crossovers, so the only difference is the HF signal (for example) is coming from a seperate speaker terminal. So whether its single wired or bi-wired it makes no difference other than an extra pair of terminals.

In a speaker designed for biwiring/biamping, the crossover should be split into two separate sections, one with a high-pass filter to feed the treble section, the other with a LPF for the md/bass driver (in a simple two-way system). The two sections of the crossover aren't connected at the speaker end, but only right the way back at the amplifier end of the speaker cables. What you seem to be suggesting is that the crossover is unchanged, and that the two sets of terminals are really only there for show, which – at least in a properly-designed biwirable/biampable speaker – isn't the case. If it were, pulling the jumper bars and just connecting one set of cables would result in the speaker still playing normally, which doesn't happen.

But as with all things, the advice is to try it for yourself and/or – if a retailer is suggesting biwiring would be beneficial – ask them to prove it by demonstration.

Please look at the two photos in my previous post, electrically, both the single wired SCM10 and Bi-Wired SCM20 crossovers behave the same.

If you single wired the SCM20 Bi-Wire terminals and used 'jumper' bars, it would still be exactly the same as the SCM10 Single Wired crossover.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Sorry to pick up on grammar, but would that make them a bit more active?

Sorry, 'fewer' of course. Have amended my post to avoid the massive confusion it could otherwise have caused.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Please look at the two photos in my previous post, electrically, both the single wired SCM10 and Bi-Wired SCM20 crossovers behave the same.

If you single wired the SCM20 Bi-Wire terminals and used 'jumper' bars, it would still be exactly the same as the SCM10 Single Wired crossover.

I've tried looking at them, even looking at them electrically, and I'm not sure what you're disagreeing about. Yes, if you use the jumper bars and single-wire, then you have a single crossover network feeding the drive units, its two halves linked by the jumper bars in the case of the SCM20 and by hardwiring in the case of the SCM10.

Remove the jumpers on the SCM10 and biwire, and you effectively have two separate crossover filters, linked only at the output stage of the amplifier.

 

[nopiano]

If you single wired the SCM20 Bi-Wire terminals and used 'jumper' bars, it would still be exactly the same as the SCM10 Single Wired crossover.

But if you didn't, it wouldn't be the same. Isn't that the point?

Your diagram labelled SCM10 illustrates the point perfectly. If you bi-wire, each cable sees only the woofer or the tweeter, not both.

 

[Andrew Everard]

If so why do you say that some speakers are better single wired?

If we comment that a biwirable speaker sounds better single-wired, it'll be because we've listened to both arrangements and formed that opinion.

 

[nopiano]

Sorry, Andrew, you beat me to it!

I'll file this under "The Bleedin' Obvious".

 

[hoopsontoast]

Please look at the two photos in my previous post, electrically, both the single wired SCM10 and Bi-Wired SCM20 crossovers behave the same.

If you single wired the SCM20 Bi-Wire terminals and used 'jumper' bars, it would still be exactly the same as the SCM10 Single Wired crossover.

I've tried looking at them, even looking at them electrically, and I'm not sure what you're disagreeing about. Yes, if you use the jumper bars and single-wire, then you have a single crossover network feeding the drive units, its two halves linked by the jumper bars in the case of the SCM20 and by hardwiring in the case of the SCM10.

Remove the jumpers on the SCM10 and biwire, and you effectively have two separate crossover filters, linked only at the output stage of the amplifier.

Yes, but they are 'seperate' in the SCM10 Single Wired too, electrically. I am trying to show that by having single wired or bi-wired its electrically the same.

You either link the two parts of the crossover together at the single terminal, the links in the bi-wire terminal or the terminal at the amplifier output, they all behave exactly the same.

As from the pictures, you could easily seperate the SCM10 Single wire crossover and bi-wire them, but it would not change a thing apart from as previously mentioned, the extra cable expense.

This is why I chose the SCM10/SCM20 crossover as its easy to see the 'serperate' crossover networks and how they connect.

 

[hoopsontoast]

If you single wired the SCM20 Bi-Wire terminals and used 'jumper' bars, it would still be exactly the same as the SCM10 Single Wired crossover.

But if you didn't, it wouldn't be the same. Isn't that the point?

Your diagram labelled SCM10 illustrates the point perfectly. If you bi-wire, each cable sees only the woofer or the tweeter, not both.

OK, they would not look the same, but with regards to what the speaker see's from the amplifier, and load presented to the amplifier they would behave exactly the same.

The cable does not see anything, its not an active component in this.

The SCM10 network behaves the same bi-wired as it does single wired. Please, I am not sure how this can be any simpler.

The only difference you could hear is if you are using different cables with different capacitance etc thefore affecting the crossover. If you are using the same cable, over 'normal' lengths (<20m) then even the capacitance and impedance does not have an affect on the crossover unless it have been designed specifically to change the signal.

 

[Andrew Everard]

You either link the two parts of the crossover together at the single terminal, the links in the bi-wire terminal or the terminal at the amplifier output

Yes, as I have now said several times.

they all behave exactly the same.

Our ears would suggest otherwise, and here I'm not talking about the specific speakers you mention, but from experience of many pairs of speakers offering biwiring.

YMMV, or indeed YMCDV.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Here is a diagram from Wikipedia:

As you can see, you either connect the two seperate crossover networks together inside the speaker, on the crossover board for example (top) or outside the speaker at the amplifier or connection terminal (bottom)

You either have one long cable and two pairs of short ones (top) or two long pairs of cable and two pairs of short ones.

Electrically it makes no difference unless, as I stated the cable used is not up to standard.

 

[BigH]

If so why do you say that some speakers are better single wired?

If we comment that a biwirable speaker sounds better single-wired, it'll be because we've listened to both arrangements and formed that opinion.

So not always a benefit then?

 

[hoopsontoast]

You either link the two parts of the crossover together at the single terminal, the links in the bi-wire terminal or the terminal at the amplifier output

Yes, as I have now said several times.

they all behave exactly the same.

Our ears would suggest otherwise, and here I'm not talking about the specific speakers you mention, but from experience of many pairs of speakers offering biwiring.

YMMV, or indeed YMCDV.

It was more you were suggesting that the difference was due to the crossovers being seperate and that being and advantage, where as the difference could only be down to the cable being used.

All speakers that are Bi-Wired are parallel crossovers, so they are intrinsically seperate, but so are most single wired speakers. I cant think of many series crossovers in commercial speakers, apart from ones that might use a seperate integrated supertweeter for example.

FWIW, I have used both bi-wire cable and single wired, also used the same bi-wire cable 'doubled' up so it keeps the same electrical properties and single wired, it did not make any differience. Only difference is it can look nicer, and the dealer gets to sell double the cable.

 

[Andrew Everard]

So not always a benefit then?

It would seem not.

 

[Andrew Everard]

FWIW, I have used both bi-wire cable and single wired, also used the same bi-wire cable 'doubled' up so it keeps the same electrical properties and single wired, it did not make any differience. Only difference is it can look nicer, and the dealer gets to sell double the cable.

As I said, your experience clearly differs from ours.

 

[hoopsontoast]

FWIW, I have used both bi-wire cable and single wired, also used the same bi-wire cable 'doubled' up so it keeps the same electrical properties and single wired, it did not make any differience. Only difference is it can look nicer, and the dealer gets to sell double the cable.

As I said, your experience clearly differs from ours.

When reviewing, do you compare single wired to bi-wired using the same cable make/model, or different makes of bi-wired cable in a 'shootout' for example?

 

[Andrew Everard]

When reviewing, do you compare single wired to bi-wired using the same cable make/model, or different makes of bi-wired cable in a 'shootout' for example?

Speakers tend to get reviewed with a variety of cables, including any the manufacturer of the speaker may suggest to be particularly well-suited to its products, but when comparing biwired to single-wired performance then of course the same brand/model of cable would be used for the comparison.

 

[BigH]

Here is a comment from a recent review: "You can bi-wire the Missions if your speaker cable allows, but although there's an improved sense of spaciousness, bass midrange and treble don't knit together quite as cohesively."

Sounds like that is what was said in the link I posted above about timing issues.

 

[BigH]

When reviewing, do you compare single wired to bi-wired using the same cable make/model, or different makes of bi-wired cable in a 'shootout' for example?

Speakers tend to get reviewed with a variety of cables, including any the manufacturer of the speaker may suggest to be particularly well-suited to its products, but when comparing biwired to single-wired performance then of course the same brand/model of cable would be used for the comparison.

Have you tried different cables for the tweeters and the woofers?

For single wiring have you found that wiring to the high freq. terminals sounds better than the lower freq. terminals?

 

[andyjm]

For those interested in the science, cables are linear components - you double the voltage, you double the current - the cable resistance is independent of the current flowing in the wire.

The reason that this matters is that there is no interaction between signals of varying frequency as they travel down the wire. The 'tweeter' frequencies don't know that the the wire is carrying 'woofer' frequencies and vice versa. The upshot of this is that running separate cables for woofer and tweeter should be no different to running a single cable (not two cables in parallel) and putting a jumper across the connector at the back of the speaker.

The opposite of this would be a component which is non-linear - the resistance depends on the current flowing. In this case the tweeter frequencies are impacted by woofer frequencies and an effect called 'intermodulation distortion' takes place. This doesn't happen in wire.

So, bi wiring involves buying twice the amount of cable for no improvement in sound quality**

**Full disclosure. My Martin Logan's are bi wired. I thought I would try it just to see. Can't tell the difference.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Have you tried different cables for the tweeters and the woofers?

Yes

For single wiring have you found that wiring to the high freq. terminals sounds better than the lower freq. terminals?

In some cases, yes. Indeed, sometimes it has sounded better to use the treble '+' terminal and the bass '-' one, or vice versa

 

[busb]

My first encounter with bi-wiring was over twenty years ago when I cooked the tweeters in my SL6s ( don't ask). Celestion asked me if I'd like the X'over split & a pair of banana sockets fitted below the existing terminal posts. The extra cost was minimal so went ahead. I initially jumpered the speakers on their return.

I eventually bought 4x 5m lengths of Exposure cable that's got the biggest cross-sectional area I've ever encountered. My expectation was that it would make zero difference but found the imaging noticeably improved.

A couple of years back, I bought a pair of Totem Arros so bi-wired them for well over a year. The purchase of my current amp had me experimenting with single wiring & jumpers. I thought the sound across the frequencies sounded slightly more integrated with little or no discernible loss of imaging. I recently bought at the Bristol show a pair of Atlas Ascent 2 5m lengths that have raised the bar regarding imaging further.

My experience when inquiring in shops was to NOT bother bi-wiring speakers but spend whatever budget put aside on single lengths instead. I never got suggestions that b-wiring was worthwhile. The upshot being: YMMV. Technically, there's no explanation why bi-wiring could work & my initial expectation bias was that it would not! As for the cheap & nasty plates, I could never get the terminals to stay tight. Many speakers come with single sets of terminals, possibly because the way their Xovers are designed or because the manufacturers think bi-wiring is a load of Cod's.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I noticed no one is mentioning using both A & B terminals its all single point wireing - is this not recomended as it sounds better, well with my speakers.

At WHF are speakers tested with this method

 

[gurjitsidhu]

True.

Also, since its separate can we not use silver played cables for the woofers so increase detail and copper for the tweeters so its not too bright sounding (for metal tweeters)

my speakers sounded different in bi wire mode. Think I preferred them bi wired tbh.

I also biwired but left the gold connector plates in and that changed the sound too so I got 3 different sounds- single wire, bi wire with the gold plates still connected and biwire without the gold plates (traditional bi wiring method)

 

[Overdose]

Lol it's not extreme anxiety! It's engineering thought

No it's not, it's procrastination.

I also think that if you want to understand how your system works, then a basic understanding of electrical theory is needed first.

Bi-wiring has no benefits (assuming your existing wire is not so thin as to be significantly adding to the impedence), passive bi-amping only has benefits if your existing amp is not quite up to the task of driving your speakers and active biamping is the only way for any real improvements overall.

In essence, if you feel that your speakers need more juice, upgrade the amp, nothing else is going to help and fretting about how it all works is not going to change this.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Lol it's not extreme anxiety! It's engineering thought

No it's not, it's procrastination.

I also think that if you want to understand how your system works, then a basic understanding of electrical theory is needed first.

Bi-wiring has no benefits (assuming your existing wire is not so thin as to be significantly adding to the impedence), passive bi-amping only has benefits if your existing amp is not quite up to the task of driving your speakers and active biamping is the only way for any real improvements overall.

In essence, if you feel that your speakers need more juice, upgrade the amp, nothing else is going to help and fretting about how it all works is not going to change this.

lol...... not true.

Like someone already said on paper & in theory it may make no difference, but our ears often say different. You do get better seperation and a cleaner sound over the connecting plates - but like all things it may boil down to how good your ears are - you must be close to deaf looking at the last set of 'facts' you posted.