Idea: An AV receiver good for music!

[rendu]

I have a great idea: how about if the companies start to make AV receivers which are good for music!? Eh?

It is easy. Ex. get the components of a good receiver ex. Onkyo 608 (450 pound) then, add the components of a good stereo amp ex. Rotel RS-04 (300 pound) and VOILA! There you have it, a good musical receiver for music and movies for 750 pound.

Please anyone tell me why this is not possible for them to make it at a reasonable price, I would really appreciate some logical explanation. Otherwise, I can only continue to think that they are fooling us.

Some times I think that the greatest improvement in technology nowdays for hi-fi companies is actually to be able to make a system that sounds as good as the 30 year back old systems used to sound.

Yes, I am frustrated!

 

[scene]

They have: viz the Arcam AVR600 and AVR500. (OK - they are a little expensive

). But the good old Arcam AVR250, 280 and 350s were pretty good in that respect... My AVR250 was about £1,000 - in line with your numbers...

 

[rendu]

scene:They have: viz the Arcam AVR600 and AVR500. (OK - they are a little expensive

). But the good old Arcam AVR250, 280 and 350s were pretty good in that respect... My AVR250 was about £1,000 - in line with your numbers...

Yes, I ended up with an Arcam also for that same reason. Coming from a Denon first and an Onkyo later... a lot of money spent and waisted. I enjoy music with the Arcam now better than the previous but when I go to my friends house and listen to their much cheaper and older stereo systems I just have the feeling that it is a totally different story altogether. :-(

 

[scene]

What, you prefer their stereos?

 

[Anonymous]

yes it is frustrating and that is one of the reasons i stick with stereo only. My cheap CA 340 sounds way better than both the yamaha and denon av receivers i have had home for testing and they cost 4 times as much. Id like to hear the av receiver that could match my lyngdorf amp without spending over 50k. Wont find it.

 

[scene]

This is also the reason, that when I get the wherewithal together, I will either get something like an Arcam AVR6000 (maybe) or a good AV amp, with pre-outs and use a good stereo amp for the front pair - giving me the best of all worlds.

I'd already like to do it with the likes of a Pioneer sc-lx82/3 / Yammy DSP-Z7 and my arcam A85...

 

[Frank Harvey]

The only problem there is the interference between analogue and digital circuitry, and also between audio and video circuitry.

 

[Frank Harvey]

rendu:Some times I think that the greatest improvement in technology nowdays for hi-fi companies is actually to be able to make a system that sounds as good as the 30 year back old systems used to sound.
This one's easy - use vinyl

 

[rendu]

Yes, I have to say yes, it sounds more real, more alive, more feeling, more rithm, more musical in one word. One of them even has old 50cm x 40cm old bulky speakers but man, do they sound good.

I honestly do not understand why companies can not make AV receiver for 600 pound which is good for music when they can do it in separate machines for the same total. But good is good, not average or ok or blablabla. GOOD for music.

 

[rendu]

FrankHarveyHiFi:rendu:Some times I think that the greatest improvement in technology nowdays for hi-fi companies is actually to be able to make a system that sounds as good as the 30 year back old systems used to sound. This one's easy - use vinyl

You have read my mind, this is the area that I have been looking at in my last visits to hi-fi department. 2 problems:

- Too lazy to change the record between song and song.

- My AVR does not even have phono entry.

But, I still consider this as an option for the "Back to the future" mission.

 

[Frank Harvey]

rendu:I honestly do not understand why companies can not make AV receiver for 600 pound which is good for music when they can do it in separate machines for the same total. But good is good, not average or ok or blablabla. GOOD for music.
Dolby processing / DTS processing / Faroudja processing / THX processing / room EQ processing / video upconversion / video upscaling / 2nd (or even third) zone facility / iPod input and control / learning remote control / Burr brown DAC's x7 / dual subwoofer outputs / PC D-Sub input / 7.1 capability / bi-amping capability / 3D pass through with audio return channel / 5 HDMI inputs / plenty of other inputs and outputs etc etc...

I've not listed everything, but that's what you get on one AV receiver for £450. This is why the audio can't be as good as a 2 channel, non digital, non video capable hi-fi amplifier for the same price, or even half the price. Things have improved, but they'll never compare like for like.

 

[jacobmorrison]

True, but how much of all that is strictly necessary? How many users actually need upscaling from their amps? Surely their dvd/bd players do this already, failing that their tv. 2nd and 3rd zone facility? Most of us have trouble getting permission for the first one from their other halves! Same thing with the two sub woofers. Ipod inputs? Haven't people purchased ipod docks already? I can't help but suspect that manufacturers are chasing feature counts rather than sound quality.

 

[Anonymous]

jacobmorrison:True, but how much of all that is strictly necessary? How many users actually need upscaling from their amps? Surely their dvd/bd players do this already, failing that their tv. 2nd and 3rd zone facility? Most of us have trouble getting permission for the first one from their other halves! Same thing with the two sub woofers. Ipod inputs? Haven't people purchased ipod docks already? I can't help but suspect that manufacturers are chasing feature counts rather than sound quality.yes but if said features are not available then reviewers would dock points for a lack of functionality, plus the same companies often make both av receivers and stereo amps, an all in one solution that's a master of both trades would impact on sales of their other products..

 

[rendu]

I am also of the opini¢n that most of the features are not needed speacially if they pay against sound quality. The first and most important is sound quality, once the companies have achieved this, they can focus on more holes to plug cables and on adding 9 or 20 speakers when 99 % of users will only use 5. Fine, but sound including music should be n§ 1 non-negotiable priority.

I also feel that hi-fi magazines are not demanding enough. Do not take me wrong I enjoy very much reading the magazine every month but, I would never give more than 3 star to a receiver if it does not perform well in stereo. And well means well. When I see comments like below (under "") in the reviews of AVRs from a Hi-Fi magazine I just have the feeling that something is wrong. Most users who purchase multichannel amps DO expect that they will be good for music, in most cases it is the n§ priority. Then, they realize that it is not the case and spend 5 years changing things to see if they can improve the sound.

If I was a hi-fi magazine I would never give a 5 start to any product if I think that it is only "acceptable in stereo". Probably then, I would never give more than 3 star to any receiver. Probably then, the hi-fi companies would take note and start to focus where they really need to focus. Sound!

Examples of recent reviews:

""

Pioneer VSX-920 (500 L)

Good looks and bold spec; excellent auto set-up (eventually); exhilarating multichannel sound and acceptable in stereo too

Onkyo TX-608 (450 L)

This refinement carries over intact, more or less, to the reproduction of stereo music. No one's expecting exemplary musicality from a sub-£500 multichannel receiver

""

Sorry but yes, we do expect exemplary musicality from any product that is meant to play music. Maybe not so much power, so many entries, connections or features but musicality yes. We do expect musicality from any amp

We can not forget that they sell these products as "excellent" for music and cinema". If you go to your receiver instructions in the manual you will see that they all quote something similar. Therefore it is our job as buyers to claim that they meet the expectations.

The biggest challenge for hi-fi company's nowdays is to be able to make new amps sound as good as the 30 year old amps used to sound. Are we going backwards?

 

[Boca]

You have brought a tear to my eye. I agree with you... I agree....

 

[Anonymous]

I have said the same things before! If all the features can be had on a £400 avr then if the companies add another £200-300 to concentrate on things that will make the sound alot better. The funniest thing is alot of peoples idea of budget is another mans luxury price. £400 for AVR is not much but some people see that as top of range gear cuz they start thinking for same money they can get a good all in one blu ray system and some of them do sound good nowadays (maybe system synergy and ease of installation help here). Also the look and size of the budget recievers gives the impression that they are gonna have some serious sound and power which is not the case alot of the times.

 

[Frank Harvey]

jacobmorrison:True, but how much of all that is strictly necessary?
None of it is really necessary - 1080p sources need no upscaling or upsampling, and most SD sources will upscale anyway (although the end result of cheap SD sources isn't always pretty), half of the inpuits are never used, most don't use extra zones, and very few will use two subs (only enthusiasts, who are more likely to spend £1k+ on a receiver, so it's rarely needed at £400), and you could even argue that room EQ isn't necessary, as we got on fine for over 10 years without it for AV systems. But if any of these products didn't have one of those features, and the customer wanted it, they've lost the sale. These receivers, especially budget ones, need to appeal to everyone, so they have to have as much on board as possible.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe they should do this. Get a budget reciever and hot rod it or make one that is a Special Edition they love doing that lol! What about Making one that comes with an pre out option for a matching power amp that can sit underneath or side by side with the reciever with it's seperate electronics based on sound quality components. I know you get AVRs with pre outs but none of the manufactures make anything matching to make worthwhile use of them.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The problem is that if it only appeals to a small market, it's not worth a manufacturer spending the R&D needed to see what changes can be implemented, nor the time and money that would be needed to test all options. Plus, it's a case of where these products will be modded - in the UK where they have control and costs more? Or in the place of manufacture where it's cheaper but end results can vary?

 

[Boca]

but their is a market... The problem I see, is that many people have not experienced good sound so when you hear it your mouth drops. MP3(The Good The Bad The Ugly) I include myself in this also. I have to be thankful for the people who are willing to teach us students.

FrankHarveyHIFI What manufactures lean more to the sound, from your experience? be it Pre-amp processors or avr?

 

[RobGardner]

I think you are after the holy grail of home entertainment. Heres a few of my experiences based on ownership of two whathifi 5 star av amps and a 5 star audio system.

The more expensive av amp sounded way better than the cheaper one (£1500 vs £400) as you would expect and hope for the financial difference. Both sound awful with music via CD (£1000 player) using either analogue or digital inputs. Both sound quite good when using music dvds and awesome with blu-ray sound tracks using a £200 bluray/dvd player. If I use my £1500 av amp as a pre-amp to my cd (£1000) and stereo power amps (£3000s worth) in to my stereo speakers (£5000) music still sounds terrible.(on par with a compact sytem you could buy for a couple of hundred quid)

If you by an ARCAM av amp it will absolutely sound better all round than most far eastern sourced av amps for the money (only briefly heared them) but the current generation are notoriously unreliable, in that they crash and freeze frequently when watching movies so I won't go there until I hear the firmware is finally sorted, and anyway there is no 3d capability at present so that will then present another opportunity to catch up..

There is an answer of course, its called money. It is just that you need to spend so much cash to buy a system that does both that you can buy 2 separate systems that work as well if not better for a lot, lot less cash. I remember hearing the £12k Denon av system through a set of Kef reference speakers (£50k or so) at the Bristol hifi show last year. It certainly sounded good on SACD, problem is none of my rooms are big enough.

Sorry to sound so negative, I really would love one box that did it all and sounded sublime, and when you find one please, please tell me about it!

 

[rendu]

Thanks for all replies and input. It definetly is a bleak prospect. You only have to look into ebay and do a search on receivers and you will find thousands and thousands of entries for receivers which are no more than one year old. My old hi-fi system lasted more than 20 years... until I decided it to replace it with a receiver and I oppened the "pandora box".

As I mentioned in my previous long post, musicallity should be a non-negotiable feature for any amp. We can only change this if we send a clear message to the hi-fi companies.

 

[Lee H]

rendu:
Thanks for all replies and input. It definetly is a bleak prospect. You only have to look into ebay and do a search on receivers and you will find thousands and thousands of entries for receivers which are no more than one year old. My old hi-fi system lasted more than 20 years... until I decided it to replace it with a receiver and I oppened the "pandora box".

As I mentioned in my previous long post, musicallity should be a non-negotiable feature for any amp. We can only change this if we send a clear message to the hi-fi companies.

I agree! These days I want one box to do it all. I fall in to the "new to this so my 'good' kit is someone else's budget bedroom system" camp, but I don't understand how my 2010 kit can't do a better job then 1980's kit. My wife has an old NAD stereo amp that I'm considering dusting off - no clue how to connect it to what I already have though

 

[jacobmorrison]

You could always get one of these:

http://whathifi.com/Review/Yamaha-A-S500/

Add one of these from ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Yamaha-DSP-E800-Processor-Amplifier-Remote-/330507594010?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item4cf3c9a91a

Total cost shouldn't be more than £450 plus cables once the bids are finished. The Yamaha DSP-E800 has pre-outs for the latest cosmetically matching (virtually) whathifi best buy, will drive the center and rears without any fuss (banana connectors on the back will take as thick a cable as you like) as well as decode dts and dolby digital from optical or co-ax sources like skyHD. As long as your bluray player has analogue outputs for the HD audio you'll be sorted. I'm evangelizing a bit because I have one of these already but it does work a treat. Great solution to the problem, it was a shame the approach was abandoned.

 

[rendu]

jacobmorrison:

You could always get one of these:

http://whathifi.com/Review/Yamaha-A-S500/

Add one of these from ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Yamaha-DSP-E800-Processor-Amplifier-Remote-/330507594010?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item4cf3c9a91a

Total cost shouldn't be more than £450 plus cables once the bids are finished. The Yamaha DSP-E800 has pre-outs for the latest cosmetically matching (virtually) whathifi best buy, will drive the center and rears without any fuss (banana connectors on the back will take as thick a cable as you like) as well as decode dts and dolby digital from optical or co-ax sources like skyHD. As long as your bluray player has analogue outputs for the HD audio you'll be sorted. I'm evangelizing a bit because I have one of these already but it does work a treat. Great solution to the problem, it was a shame the approach was abandoned.

jacobmorrison, you got it right. I have no doubt that what you propose will give better result in practice and any avr receiver. These type of mix of systems is what many people have ended up doing unfortunately because their AVR amps just did not perform well for music. What we are asking the companies though is to do this mix for us within one box and sell it as a unique machine. If we can do it adding up different machines for 450, why can they not?