Idea: An AV receiver good for music!

[rendu]

daveh75:

PINK MOON:Is there a switch box available that could solve the need to change the output source for the spreakers, when using an av amp and a hifi amp?

Yep, http://www.beresford.me/PP/TC2D7220_AUDIO_ROUTER.html

This is interesting device indeed. I guess we will continue to have to search for cumbersome solutions until we finally have musical receivers.

I have one question thougth, if you have 2 amps one AV and a normal 2 channel, can you use the FM radio of the receiver with the 2 channel amp? Or would you have to buy a separate FM receiver for the 2 channel amp?

 

[Andrew Everard]

If you have an AV receiver with preouts, with the front LR channels fed through the stereo amp, yes. Or you could use the tape out on the receiver to feed sound to the stereo amp for radio listening.

That said, the FM stages in AV receivers tend not to be as impressive as even modestly-priced standalone radio tuners.

 

[rendu]

Andrew Everard:

If you have an AV receiver with preouts, with the front LR channels fed through the stereo amp, yes. Or you could use the tape out on the receiver to feed sound to the stereo amp for radio listening.

That said, the FM stages in AV receivers tend not to be as impressive as even modestly-priced standalone radio tuners.

Thanks, I do not have pre-outs so in this case I suppose it would have to be the tape out (which I do not know whether I have it either).

 

[Andrew Everard]

On the AVR280 you have three sets of tape outputs and a Zone 2 audio out, any one of which would enable you to feed the audio from the receiver's onboard tuner to an external amplifier.

 

[rendu]

Andrew Everard:On the AVR280 you have three sets of tape outputs and a Zone 2 audio out, any one of which would enable you to feed the audio from the receiver's onboard tuner to an external amplifier.

Ok, thanks again, I take note. I am a bit reluctant to implement this type of complex solutions with many boxes but unless things change dramatically I will certainly consider this in my next upgrade.

 

[Andrew Everard]

All that being said, I'm not confident adding a stereo amplifier will bring you the kind of improvements you seem to be seeking, given that I feel your current speakers may be more of a limiting factor.

 

[rendu]

Andrew Everard:All that being said, I'm not confident adding a stereo amplifier will bring you the kind of improvements you seem to be seeking, given that I feel your current speakers may be more of a limiting factor.

Yes, I know you are correct about the speakers I do not know what to do there but at some point I will have to do something. I had better front speakers in the past but never achieved the musical reproduction I was looking for due to the receiver/s limitation (I had 3 receiver upgrades in total in 6 years). Therefore, I am kind of reluctant to spend big money on speakers unless the "musical" part is resolved first.

 

[Anonymous]

A modern AV receiver has money spent on:

• Dolby licences
• DTS licences
• HDMI licence
• Rovi (Macrovision) licence
• Apple licence
• WMA licence
• DAB licence
• Video scaling and OSD processor
• HDMI decoding chipset
• Analogue video circuitry
• Audio DSP chip(s)
• Lots of connectors (relatively expensive c.f. electronic components)
• Multichannel codec
• Programming all the software and DSP code
• Testing all the software and DSP code and paying Dolby and DTS to certify it
• Complex 6-layer high speed digital PCBs
• Safety testing (more expensive with more channels of power amp and greater complexity generally)
• EMC testing (more expensive to design for since the product is basically a computer)
• Expensive metalwork (larger than a stereo amp)
• Large transformer to support 7 channels of power amplification
• Complex power supply compared to stereo amp due to video circuits
• The equivalent of 4 times the DAC filter circuitry compared to a CD player
• A big expensive display (c.f. a stereo amp)

I'm sure there is more. The point is, there's no wonder a simple stereo amp can sound much better when it doesn't have to have all that stuff. Arguing that those features are unnecessary is nonsense, just look at how sales of non-HDMI receivers fell off a cliff when HDMI audio came along.

It is possible to have a good-sounding musical AV receiver and it is the British companies who have the attention to detail to spend the money wisely on better transformers, capacitors etc and who also have the engineering experience to design a power amp better than the far-eastern brands. The Far Eastern manufacturers are driven by cost and will not contemplate doubling the cost of a capacitor because it sounds better in a listening test or spending 30% more on a toroidal transformer because it measures better (because those specs aren't generally published).

Of course the companies with good AV receivers will have better stereo gear, because it isn't polluted with all the digital (video) circuits. But as stated previously this is just like separates being better than all-in-one stereos.

 

[bigrich55]

Just spent half an hour going through this thread ... very interesting apart from the personal barbs which I found very unnecessary and disappointing.

My outtake is that yes it is difficult but not impossible to improve sound quality of av amps but at an extra cost (assuming full av features remain). This would take it to a one box solution to meet everyones audio and visual needs .... whilst we are at it why not include a blu ray player and a cd player (sic). I can't help thinking you get what you pay for. That said, that the manufacturesrs, retailers, journalists & experts could make it easier for us simple consumers to understand and meet our needs for audio and visual performance.

The original post did suggest that kit ratings could/should include within it an assessment for music whilst others ask to keep it as pure home cinema ..... there is a germ of an idea here in that it seems many want to use hc for hc and others want to use it for both hc and music. Why not continue to rate for hc but add a separate rating for the same kit for music?

Taking this further why not publish all key parameter ratings (there will be others than music with multifunction components such as av receivers) as well as the overall rating .... similar to the approach taken by which? that enable the reader to identify the product with the highest overall rating which is top rated for the parameter most important to them. I for one would find this really useful and much more enlightening.

 

[The_Lhc]

IT'S THE THREAD THAT REFUSES TO DIE!!!

bigrich55:Taking this further why not publish all key parameter ratings (there will be others than music with multifunction components such as av receivers) as well as the overall rating .... similar to the approach taken by which?

Have you ever read a Which magazine, tedious doesn't even begin to describe it...

 

[bigrich55]

Never from cover to cover as I agree with you ... I do though check out their reviews of products I am interested in buying and treat it as one source of information. My point was that single ratings for multifunctional equipment are too simplistic and I gave which? as an example of approaching things differently. Others do it too such as camera mags, computer mags, why not WHF?

PS threads refuse to die if people are interested in them LOL

 

[MrNo]

Great thread, in fact just when I was about to invest quite a lot into upgrading my surround AV with a stereo amp. I am ok to pay more for better stereo performance, but having to have two complete separate systems for surround vs stereo seems too much to me.

Two questions:

1. Has anybody actually tried connecting an average AV receiver (mine is Onkyo TX SR 706) to a superior integrated amp (What I have in mind is Marantz PM 15S2) from pre-out of AV receiver (assume >£3000 front speakers) ? How is the result? When in stereo, is it the same as using just the amp? Is there imbalance when in surround mode?

2. Does anybody have a perspective if separate home cinema amp+contoller perform better with stereo sound (e.g. Marantz AV 7005+MM7055 combo)?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Andrew Everard]

MrNo:1. Has anybody actually tried connecting an average AV receiver (mine is Onkyo TX SR 706) to a superior integrated amp (What I have in mind is Marantz PM 15S2) from pre-out of AV receiver (assume >£3000 front speakers) ? How is the result? When in stereo, is it the same as using just the amp? Is there imbalance when in surround mode?

Yes, and it doesn't help much. But then the idea is that your audio-only sources - CD player, tuner, whatever - go through the stereo amp alone, not through the AV receiver and then into the stereo integrated amp. That way the audio signals are kept away from all that video/audio signal processing.

But no, there's no imbalance when you're using the two amps together in surround mode: when you set up channel levels you take account of any gain differences between the AV receiver's onboard amplification and that in the stereo amp you're using.

And for information I'm currently doing just this: Onkyo TX-SR875 and Naim SuperNait, with video sources connected to the Onkyo, and stereo audio sources into the Naim.

MrNo:2. Does anybody have a perspective if separate home cinema
amp+contoller perform better with stereo sound (e.g. Marantz AV
7005+MM7055 combo)?

Again, the same kind of criteria regarding keeping music away from video processing tend to pertain, but that said I had good results when I used to run a TAG McLaren Audio AV32Rbp192 processor and 100X5R:10 power amp. However, that may have had a lot to do with the fact the TAG processor didn't handle video, and had a multichannel analogue bypass facility to keep the audio signal path as clean as possible.

 

[The_Lhc]

In your (admittedly slightly insane) case, if you add a stereo amp, you plug all the stereo sources (CD player etc) into the stereo amp, so when listening to music you don't have the AV receiver on at all and it doesn't have any influence on the sound quality of the stereo audio.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Jayunx!

 

[Big Chris]

MrNo:

......having to have two complete separate systems for surround vs stereo seems too much to me.

Why? This is exactly what I've done.

I live in a '60s built semi, not an aircraft hanger, and it doesn't look like a branch of Richer Sounds either.

I wanted surround for my movies, but didn't want to compromise on stereo performance one bit, so chose the 2 systems path.

No regrets here.

 

[MrNo]

Andrew Everard:
Yes, and it doesn't help much. But then the idea is that your audio-only sources - CD player, tuner, whatever - go through the stereo amp alone, not through the AV receiver and then into the stereo integrated amp. That way the audio signals are kept away from all that video/audio signal processing.

But no, there's no imbalance when you're using the two amps together in surround mode: when you set up channel levels you take account of any gain differences between the AV receiver's onboard amplification and that in the stereo amp you're using.

And for information I'm currently doing just this: Onkyo TX-SR875 and Naim SuperNait, with video sources connected to the Onkyo, and stereo audio sources into the Naim.

That makes a lot of sense. However I just checked the user's manual of Marantz PM-15S2, and it says that to switch it into power amp only mode (which I guess is needed during surround mode) you have to press a button on the amp (not even on the remote) for 3 seconds. That's probably fine for one time, but I can't imagine doing this every time when I want to switch from CD to Surround Is that the case with your setup as well?

 

[Anonymous]

Dear, I was told mid-range AV receivers are supposed to be good with music these days. unfortunately there's no store around that offers both the Arcam AVR350 and the Pioneer VSX-LX53 or the Onkyo TX-NR 808 or TX-NR 3008 around here, as the AVR350 is becoming quite 'exotic'. The cheaper Onkyo would actually be better than the Pioneer LX52 and the Arcam AVR350. Has anyone compared: a top 4-5 year old receiver vs a brand new one with the latest flufs. Are any of these receivers quite as good With music as the AVR350 ? Is last years top Pioneer's LX82 or the LX72? I would be most grateful to hear from you. Kind regards.

 

[Andrew Everard]

MrNo:That makes a lot of sense. However I just checked the user's manual of Marantz PM-15S2, and it says that to switch it into power amp only mode (which I guess is needed during surround mode) you have to press a button on the amp (not even on the remote) for 3 seconds. That's probably fine for one time, but I can't imagine doing this every time when I want to switch from CD to Surround Is that the case with your setup as well?

No, you just set a volume level on the stereo amp that balances with the AV receiver, and return the stereo amp to that setting whenever you want to use it with the AV receiver. Things are helped on the Naim I have by a unity gain setting on the AV input.

 

[MrNo]

I read in another topic that if the Integrated AMP has a HT bypass, there is no hassle then to re-adjust the volume every time. Does any of Marantz / Denon or Onkyo amps have this feature? I couldn't find it in their websites.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Yes, that's what I was saying in my previous post. The facility you mentioned on your amplifier - the ability to switch to power amp mode at the push of a button - is exactly what you're looking for in terms of a 'unity gain' or 'AV bypass' function, so I think you've answered your own question.

 

[DandyCobalt]

I have been thinking of adding a Cyrus 6xp or 8xp stereo amp to my system, adding to my LX53 receiver, with the Cyrus connected to the receiver front L/R pre-outs. (with CM8s as fronts)
Would the £1,000 on the amp be money well-spent, and be a marked sound improvement? (before I arrange potentially time-wasting demos at local helpful ssav).
For stereo CDs I'm routing my CA650 via analogue to the amp, and using the Analogue Pure Direct setting on the amp. Or maybe I should wait for the new CA751 to appear and see/hear what difference that makes?

 

[MrNo]

Andrew Everard:Yes, that's what I was saying in my previous post. The facility you mentioned on your amplifier - the ability to switch to power amp mode at the push of a button - is exactly what you're looking for in terms of a 'unity gain' or 'AV bypass' function, so I think you've answered your own question.

Thanks Andrew, next week at the audition, I will try first the Pioneer SC LX 83 connected to high end speakers & CD player, then I will try the same speakers & CD player with the Marantz PM 15S2 amp. If the amp only setup makes considerable difference, then I guess I will have to live with the " press the button 3 seconds" every time I want to switch from surround to stereo and vice versa..

 

[MrNo]

Hi Andrew,

The thread is a bit old, but wanted to check with you something on your post.

You said you're using the unity gain setting on the Naim, does that mean everytime you have to change from hi fi to surround (or vice versa), you have to go to the amp and use the switch at the back of the amp?