Yes, I know. I think that main problem is that designers are willing to take big compromises in amplifier part to keep cost down. I think that there are another ways to keep that cost down. For me ideal combination will be discprocessor in one box and amplifiers separately. I would be happy with two channels, at least for a beginning.
ediots: I would be happy with two channels, at least for a beginning.
Erm, isn't that rather defeating the object?
Erm, isn't that rather defeating the object?
Clare Newsome:
ediots: I would be happy with two channels, at least for a beginning.
Erm, isn't that rather defeating the object?
Not sure if I understand it correctly. We still need processor for sound processing/decoding and video commutation. Stereo apmlifier cannot do that. There also was thought that a life span for a good amplifier is about 15-20 years and a/v receiver 3-5 years. Is it would be more money wise to put a money in power amplifiers for next 20 years and then change processors to keep up with techology for much less money than whole a/v receiver? Of course, problem is that available a/v processors are top class and a way too much expensive to replace them after 3 years. We see that DAC market is on the rise, so I hope we soon will see the same about a/v processors. I think that they are very similar things.
ediots: I would be happy with two channels, at least for a beginning.
Erm, isn't that rather defeating the object?
Not sure if I understand it correctly. We still need processor for sound processing/decoding and video commutation. Stereo apmlifier cannot do that. There also was thought that a life span for a good amplifier is about 15-20 years and a/v receiver 3-5 years. Is it would be more money wise to put a money in power amplifiers for next 20 years and then change processors to keep up with techology for much less money than whole a/v receiver? Of course, problem is that available a/v processors are top class and a way too much expensive to replace them after 3 years. We see that DAC market is on the rise, so I hope we soon will see the same about a/v processors. I think that they are very similar things.
I think there are a few interesting points in all this, but I don't see why a more expensive AV amp can't match a cheaper stereo amp. As mentioned cheap car systems do a decent job.
Firstly, maybe in magazines, AV receivers should get a score for music separately from their abilities with films, maybe with an indication of what level of stereo amp it competes with. This would solve Rendu's problems to agreat extent I think.
The second is why the receivers can't produce on the music front to meet audiophile needs. I don't fully understand why good performance for film is so different to music. Surely rendition of detail, flat frequency response, and prompt start / stop of sounds is required in both cases?
Firstly, maybe in magazines, AV receivers should get a score for music separately from their abilities with films, maybe with an indication of what level of stereo amp it competes with. This would solve Rendu's problems to agreat extent I think.
The second is why the receivers can't produce on the music front to meet audiophile needs. I don't fully understand why good performance for film is so different to music. Surely rendition of detail, flat frequency response, and prompt start / stop of sounds is required in both cases?
Paul.
Well-known member
Re the car stereo thing, have you listened to it stationary with the engine stopped? I spent some time sat in my bro's Mazda today (nasty hag in macro wouldn't let me bring my camera bag in to the store) whist he was shopping. Now I always thought his Bose setup sounded pretty decent, but whilst stationary with the engine stopped it didn't sound so hot (maybe it was a power thing, no altenator running). There is a huge amount of background noise in a car, once its removed alot of the systems imperfections are revealed.
Your second question has been explained pretty methodically throughout the thread, why would something with seven amps and what is essentially a computer in it sound as good as something with only two amps in it for the same money? Are Onkyo etc not allowed to put food on the plates of their thousands of employees? Who's going to pay for all the stuff?
Secondly, no amount of marketing 'push' can force consumers to buy a product they don't want. The recievers are the way they are because of consumer 'pull', the manufacturers reacting to what sells.
The truth is, you have been outvoted by the silent majority , everybody likes them!
Your second question has been explained pretty methodically throughout the thread, why would something with seven amps and what is essentially a computer in it sound as good as something with only two amps in it for the same money? Are Onkyo etc not allowed to put food on the plates of their thousands of employees? Who's going to pay for all the stuff?
Secondly, no amount of marketing 'push' can force consumers to buy a product they don't want. The recievers are the way they are because of consumer 'pull', the manufacturers reacting to what sells.
The truth is, you have been outvoted by the silent majority , everybody likes them!
Paul Hobbs: Secondly, no amount of marketing 'push' can force consumers to buy a product they don't want. The recievers are the way they are because of consumer 'pull', the manufacturers reacting to what sells.
The truth is, you have been outvoted by the silent majority
, everybody likes them!
You are too optimistic about consumers power. Consumers can buy only what is produced. That is manufacturer who creating a market and demand. Consumers cann't demand or 'pull' something what they are not aware about. Consumers can only respond - accept or refuse. Propably most important thing for decison is price.
The truth is, you have been outvoted by the silent majority
You are too optimistic about consumers power. Consumers can buy only what is produced. That is manufacturer who creating a market and demand. Consumers cann't demand or 'pull' something what they are not aware about. Consumers can only respond - accept or refuse. Propably most important thing for decison is price.
Paul.
Well-known member
Market push and consumer pull is the very basics of marketing, it exists whether you believe in or not!
The_Lhc
Well-known member
kinda:I think there are a few interesting points in all this, but I don't see why a more expensive AV amp can't match a cheaper stereo amp.
Ummm, they do, you must have been here long enough to have seen the oft quoted mantra "An AV amp will perform as well in stereo as a stereo amp costing 1/3 of the price".
The second is why the receivers can't produce on the music front to meet audiophile needs. I don't fully understand why good performance for film is so different to music. Surely rendition of detail, flat frequency response, and prompt start / stop of sounds is required in both cases?
Music requires timing, above all else, there isn't the same requirement with film soundtracks, typically.
Ummm, they do, you must have been here long enough to have seen the oft quoted mantra "An AV amp will perform as well in stereo as a stereo amp costing 1/3 of the price".
The second is why the receivers can't produce on the music front to meet audiophile needs. I don't fully understand why good performance for film is so different to music. Surely rendition of detail, flat frequency response, and prompt start / stop of sounds is required in both cases?
Music requires timing, above all else, there isn't the same requirement with film soundtracks, typically.
How about when car audio manufactures make 5 channel amps in small enclosures for around £300 for a good one? My point being again a small 12v supplied multi channel car amp sounds better which tend to include 250 watts rms subwoofer output. U can get true 5.1 car amps aswell again for reasonable amount of money that sound very musical. So why are home recievers so poor at playing music? These brands have had enough time to try and get around this age old problem right? I can give some good product examples just to back up my point if need be.
professorhat
Well-known member
I suspect it's a conspiracy or something. AV manufacturers have been perfectly capable of producing AV amps which actually exceed a stereo amplifier's performance in producing music for 5 years now. But they've all chosen not to. Out of spite probably.
professorhat:
I suspect it's a conspiracy or something. AV manufacturers have been perfectly capable of producing AV amps which actually exceed a stereo amplifier's performance in producing music for 5 years now. But they've all chosen not to. Out of spite probably.
Yes exactly, must be that making a musical multichannel amp is almost like rocket science; maybe our grand children will be lucky enough to see it. So, we poor users can add a 300 Eur AV receiver to a 300 Eur stereo amp via the pre-out connections but, the technical experts of the big Hi-fi companies can not manage to do this internally and sell in one box. Right. Exactly.
The technology is there. Again, they have just mentioned as an example a car radio that has 5 amps, CD player, ipod connection, Bluetooth, FM-AM, etc and that are very musical. To me the main problem continue to be these 3 things:
1 - They focus more on features than on sound to fool us.
2 - They also sell stereo amps.
3 - They do not get the message. As long as they have happy customers who even defend what is unacceptable for many users and as long as the hi-fi magazines continue to give them 5 starts then there is very little hope for change.
I suspect it's a conspiracy or something. AV manufacturers have been perfectly capable of producing AV amps which actually exceed a stereo amplifier's performance in producing music for 5 years now. But they've all chosen not to. Out of spite probably.
Yes exactly, must be that making a musical multichannel amp is almost like rocket science; maybe our grand children will be lucky enough to see it. So, we poor users can add a 300 Eur AV receiver to a 300 Eur stereo amp via the pre-out connections but, the technical experts of the big Hi-fi companies can not manage to do this internally and sell in one box. Right. Exactly.
The technology is there. Again, they have just mentioned as an example a car radio that has 5 amps, CD player, ipod connection, Bluetooth, FM-AM, etc and that are very musical. To me the main problem continue to be these 3 things:
1 - They focus more on features than on sound to fool us.
2 - They also sell stereo amps.
3 - They do not get the message. As long as they have happy customers who even defend what is unacceptable for many users and as long as the hi-fi magazines continue to give them 5 starts then there is very little hope for change.
professorhat
Well-known member
Must remember to tag my posts using the <sarcasm> </sarcasm> indicators accordingly in the future...
professorhat:
Must remember to tag my posts using the <sarcasm> </sarcasm> indicators accordingly in the future...
Or not post sarcasm at all... even better...
Must remember to tag my posts using the <sarcasm> </sarcasm> indicators accordingly in the future...
Or not post sarcasm at all... even better...
professorhat:Must remember to tag my posts using the <sarcasm> </sarcasm> indicators accordingly in the future...
Or possibly use this emoticon
Or possibly use this emoticon
professorhat
Well-known member
rendu:professorhat:
Must remember to tag my posts using the <sarcasm> </sarcasm> indicators accordingly in the future...
Or not post sarcasm at all... even better...
That's like asking a cat not to purr!
Must remember to tag my posts using the <sarcasm> </sarcasm> indicators accordingly in the future...
Or not post sarcasm at all... even better...
That's like asking a cat not to purr!
The_Lhc
Well-known member
...ist on a BIKE! We're not really going to have this conversation again are we? Once was bad enough...
British built Genesis car amp is 5 channel sounds fantastic. Thats 5 musical channels including 250 rms for sub serious power. Home amps dont even run passive subwoofers they use active subs in their benefit so they don't have that super powerful sub channel required for a good sub. Also don't forget most home audio manufactures have been making products alot longer then the great no name car brands (well to the people that don't know the great car audio brands that is). I know ther was something in home cinema amps where the electronics are made to handle the sudden peaks and that this technique makes them less musical. But again a car amp can continuously be driven at high volumes while still sounding musical for hours, handling anything thrown at it. You can get budget 5-6 channel kenwood, pioneer or Infinity (from Harmon Kardon Group) car amps that sound good for around £250 or for £150 if you know where to look. So explain why companies that have all the expertise to make the AV products are doing a poor job at making them musical. In terms of impression in appearance AV amps look massive but sound deceptively weedy. It still does not make sense.
cheyworth
Well-known member
you need to remember that when talking about car amps they are being supplied with 12v DC but the home cinema kit needs to convert 240v AC to DC. the transformer will play a large part in cost and sound.
professorhat
Well-known member
Although my sarcasm was missed, it was actually meant to try and invoke a little thought. Perhaps you could explain why, if this is all so easy to do (as you seem to insist it must be), there hasn't been a single manufacturer who has built this fantastically musical AV amp? Is it a conspiracy that they won't do it because they can't be bothered to take easy advantage of a niche market and make lots of money? Or is it perhaps that, for the reasons that have been outlined time and again throughout this thread, it is either not actually as easy as you seem to think and therefore not a profitable avenue for them to research (due to the limited market share it would get) or indeed, not actually possible and the efforts of the Marantzs, Cambridge Audios and Arcams of the world are the best you can get at this time? If you think it's the former, then ... well, I'm really not too sure what to say.
And why are car stereos consistently referred to as proof that this should be easy? In what possible way are a car stereo and an AV amp alike (apart from the obvious "they both make a noise" way of course). And what on earth makes you think if took your car stereo out of your small car and put it into a living room, it would come even close to reproducing the same musical performance as a stereo amp that cost the same money?
And why are car stereos consistently referred to as proof that this should be easy? In what possible way are a car stereo and an AV amp alike (apart from the obvious "they both make a noise" way of course). And what on earth makes you think if took your car stereo out of your small car and put it into a living room, it would come even close to reproducing the same musical performance as a stereo amp that cost the same money?
This afternoon I'll be replacing my windows at home with a boot lid, adding blue LED lighting to all my components, throwing out the sofa in place of one giant sub, throw open the newly fitted boot lid and invite an endless chain of people that have spent £30 grand on a Peugot 205 to come and say things like, "innit" and "bruv" at me.
cheyworth
Well-known member
I don't get the car reference either.
I guess we should all have a car amp in our system but can you imagine how many batteries we would need connected to it for a showing of all 'Lord of the Rings' films!
Edit: problem solved, you just need a long cable connected to the car battery (left running to keep the charge) out on the drive!
That way you know if your car has been stolen as the amp will turn off!
I guess we should all have a car amp in our system but can you imagine how many batteries we would need connected to it for a showing of all 'Lord of the Rings' films!
Edit: problem solved, you just need a long cable connected to the car battery (left running to keep the charge) out on the drive!
That way you know if your car has been stolen as the amp will turn off!
daveh75
Well-known member
cheyworth:
I don't get the car reference either.
Ditto. Try getting a car amp to decode HD audio or upscale video...
I don't get the car reference either.
Ditto. Try getting a car amp to decode HD audio or upscale video...
Yes u can put a car cd player in the home if you really want to and they do sound good. But it is not worth the hassle as there is not a problem with home cd players they are all good enough and we pick the best out of them through research into mags and using our own ears. The car environment is harsh as in the variations in high and low temperature. Also car audio is alot better value because the competition is so fierce for exampl Focal Utopia speakers for the car are £3500..... The same drivers used in Focal Utopia home speakers are £30000 granted you get a cabinet and all that too lol but still. Power supply in a car is relatively weak compared to a constant supply from a plug at home. Certain car stereos decode 5.1, with bluetooth, 4x50 watt tiny chip of an amp, touchscreen list goes on.... all this in a small space of single/double din. OK then look at it this way you mention the decoder and upscaling video.... Now realistically how much are these parts? Truthfully nothing much unless you start looking at the better scalers like Anchor Bay and such. So how comes even in a £1000 AV amp is the sound for these amps described as average for music so what I am saying is you have a jump from a £300 reciever to a £1000 and most parts are similar accept you get more power but they still sound average foe music. Also with the reference to LED lights and such to bring in the home to decorate your window... All I can say is I don't think you understand how great the car products are the serious stuff not your Halfords junk. I challenge anyone even What Hi Fi to listen to what I have in my car in against price comparitive home products. Put it this way My hand made Italian Amp and array speakers blows my brothers Cyrus/MA kit out of the water for quality, realism, power and paints a jaw dropping holographic sound. I started my fascination with audio in the home when I was young but when I heard a few pros cars I realised that I could never achieve this level of quality in the home for the same money.
The_Lhc
Well-known member
But the point is your car system (no matter how good) is a one trick pony. It isn't trying to cope with multiple HDMI and digi inputs, trying to upscale video, drive a second zone, connect to the internet, process video signals, receive streamed audio etc. If it were that easy, surely all the car audio manufacturers would have thought, "hang on, we can clean up the in home business here with our kit" or are they part of the cartel that stamp on this kind of thing?
Similar threads
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
-
-
-
-
Question Anyone from Tokyo willing to help a fellow audiophile?
- Started by El Puerco Volante
- Replies: 4
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram