I want coloration... of the bass variety

[CnoEvil]

If I had that sort of budget to play with, I'd be looking at Kef R300 speakers.

On the amp front, I would look at:

Arcam A39 or 49.

Creek Evo 100A

Rega Elicit R

Ayre AX-7e

Hegel H160

Electrocompaniet ECI-5

Pathos Logos

Musical Fidelity M6si or M6 500i

 

[davedotco]

Stepping out of the normal hi-fi 'comfort zone' can be difficult, the dealers are very different and you have to think differently too, worth it though.

Were you a pro-audio dealer or a hifi dealer Dave? None of my business so don't feel compelled to answer. Just curious, that's all.

I learned my 'trade' working for JBL in the early/mid 70s, eventually heading up the pro division in the uk. I left when the Harman takeover was completed in 1976, moving on to running my own live sound production company.

Due to somewhat unusual circumstances, I was a 'partner/owner' in a hi-fi retailer for around 20 years from about 1980, sometimes active, sometimes passive though I gave up my 'pro' work in the late 80s.

This work involved working in live sound from the start of the punk era through to 'that' gig in july 85, by which time I was mainly doing studio work. I returned to working full time as a dealer during the 90s, then spent a few years doing pr in the hi-fi business, mostly for foreign companies looking to create a presence in the uk hi-fi Press.

 

[Gazzip]

Thanks Dave. That is a pretty impressive CV.

There is an interview with PMC's Peter Thomas on YouTube, I forget now who is interviewing him but I think he is from the professional side, where PT clearly states that there is no difference between their consumer range and their pro range siblings, except for a nice veneer finish of course. I admired his passion and complete honesty and I like to think that his marketing team were hands on face, peering through their fingers when he made that statement, hissing "apart from the hugely different price tags Peter! Apart from the price tags!".

Do you think that in general terms the "pro" gear is equivalent/better/worse/different/the same as consumer hifi equipment?

 

[JoelSim]

Marc, don't worry too much about the CDP. I have a Leema Tucana 2 which produces 350W per channel and some Kudos Cardea C2 speakers. If you want bass this gives a huge sound, just powerful. Yet refined too.

My main listening is typically as below, albeit spotify through the DAC on my CDP. Boring it isn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBH6dTv7Jpw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARGYlELyFHE

But I do like a bit of this too, which is also pretty special through this system

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iUoqTaowaI

I also admire you for your honesty in your post and if you want to listen to my system then you are welcome to. London.

 

[davedotco]

Apart from monitoring (amps and speakers) there is no pro -gear that is really of any use in a hi-fi system but in general terms, pro equipment is tough, reliable and designed to get the job done. With studio downtime costing thousands of pounds a day, unreliable or tempramental equipment will not be tollerated.

Most top class studio gear is supplied direct, or via an agent, the comparisons I think you are looking for is the kind of pro gear that is aimed at what is usually referred to as the 'project studio' market.

This is relatively inexpensive equipment, supplied via music shops like DV247 or big online retailers like Studiospares in London or Thomann in Germany. This market is surprisingly large, far, far bigger than the component hi-fi business and very competitive indeed. If we go back to the one real point of overlap, I feel the quality of monitors produced by serious but 'budget' companies such as Presonus or Yamaha far outstrip what is available in the hi-fi market at comparable prices.

Of course you need to have a grasp of what these speakers do compared to conventional hi-fi amp/speaker combinations at comparable prices, if you are looking for the warm, smooth sound of most budget hi-fi you are going to be pretty dissapointed.

 

[JoelSim]

Not sure I agree Dave. I think the OP is asking for excitement as to his taste. That isn't necessarily different from hifi, it can be but it may not be. That is what system choice and matching is all about. My stuff works with dub or with acoustic. That works for me.

 

[davedotco]

Not sure I agree Dave. I think the OP is asking for excitement as to his taste. That isn't necessarily different from hifi, it can be but it may not be. That is what system choice and matching is all about. My stuff works with dub or with acoustic. That works for me.

Clearly, none of us can decide what anyone else 'likes' or finds exciting, but for certain kinds of listener and certain kinds of music the active monitor solution brings an awful lot to the party.

Up to about £2k (give or take) they will usually outperform conventional hi-f combinations in terms of output, bass 'punch', control, clarity etc. What they will not do is sound like most hi-fi, the warmth and smoothness that is much prized by hi-fi entusiasts is largely missing so different reactions from different listeners are inevitable.

Speaking with a very broad brush (to mutilate another metaphor) I find most conventional amp/speaker combinations in the price range mentioned to be overly warm, sometimes bloated in the bass and lacking in other areas that are important to me, this of course the point, choosing equipment that do what you want.

This can be taken too far of course, there are some cheapish active monitors that are loud and punchy but sound pretty poor overall, despite what is occasionally claimed, active design is not the only criteria, overall design is still important.

 

[SteveR750]

Stepping out of the normal hi-fi 'comfort zone' can be difficult, the dealers are very different and you have to think differently too, worth it though.

Were you a pro-audio dealer or a hifi dealer Dave? None of my business so don't feel compelled to answer. Just curious, that's all.

I learned my 'trade' working for JBL in the early/mid 70s, eventually heading up the pro division in the uk. I left when the Harman takeover was completed in 1976, moving on to running my own live sound production company.

Due to somewhat unusual circumstances, I was a 'partner/owner' in a hi-fi retailer for around 20 years from about 1980, sometimes active, sometimes passive though I gave up my 'pro' work in the late 80s.

This work involved working in live sound from the start of the punk era through to 'that' gig in july 85, by which time I was mainly doing studio work. I returned to working full time as a dealer during the 90s, then spent a few years doing pr in the hi-fi business, mostly for foreign companies looking to create a presence in the uk hi-fi Press.

Dave, that's really interesting. Why do you think the domestic market is so different to the pro market in terms of what is wanted sonically? Why do domestic speaker manufacturers voice their products this way? I suspect the expert reviewers don't help with their scary reviews of ATC as one example. Given how good a computer source is, and how good a cheap DAC is, the only other significant variable is the amplifier.

 

[davedotco]

This is an interesting thought, the modern hi-fi speaker was, in effect, derived from the original 'professional' loudspeaker system, that were produced for the cinema.

From the advent of the 'talkie', music playback was driven by the cinema, given the requirements which placed intelligibility as the most important, limited bandwidth, high effeciency designs were the norm.

The pioneers of home hi-fi in the 50s, companies like Klipsch, JBL and Altec found ways of adapting this technology for home use, though far, far smaller than their cinema counterparts the Klipschorns, JBL Hartsfield and Altec A7s were big speakers, Linsayts favoured Electrovoice Patrician bigger still.

The huge advance in home hi-fi in the 60s let to the size reduction that most people wanted for home use, smaller inefficient speakers driven by powerful 30 watt amplifiers made modern stereo hi-fi possible, but so much was lost along the way.

Scale, power and presence, all required for 'pro' applications, were all sacrificed for domestic harmony and despite a brief period, in the early 70s, when an attempt was made to market hi-fi speakers with 'studio' credentials, the divide has remained.

Modern studio speakers (of any decent quality) still produce levels of power, bandwidth, punch and presence that most hi-fi barely hints at, so the hi-fi industry has developed standard of its own to compare and judge it's own products.

 

[Vladimir]

Scale, power and presence...

Is presence same as ambience in english? The sense of being there, enveloped by sound and details, not just thrown in your face.

 

[SteveR750]

Dave, who do you think are credible domestic speaker manufacturers?

 

[SteveR750]

Scale, power and presence...

Is presence same as ambience in english? The sense of being there, enveloped by sound and details, not just thrown in your face.

Yes. spatial detail and transient attack. It's the sense of scale

 

[Vladimir]

Scale, power and presence.

That. I want that.

 

[Gazzip]

Scale, power and presence...

Is presence same as ambience in english? The sense of being there, enveloped by sound and details, not just thrown in your face.

Yes. spatial detail and transient attack. It's the sense of scale

This may explain my penchant for BIG pmc monitors powered by Brystons, both of which are derived from their professional range, and my dislike of many, many domestic hifi brands that I find pleasant enough to listen to but a little flat and bland. The same is true the other way round I know as plenty do not get on with the pmc/Bryston sound.

All down to personal taste of course and nothing wrong with either camp.

 

[drummerman]

Modern studio speakers (of any decent quality) still produce levels of power, bandwidth, punch and presence that most hi-fi barely hints at, so the hi-fi industry has developed standard of its own to compare and judge it's own products.

Of course they have.

We don't all live if sound proof chambers. We usually have neighbours.

Our ears are also less sensitive to certain frequencies at lower levels, hence the loudness button was invented.

Flat frequency response is all good in theory (which many on here are masters of ...) but in real life, real rooms a little bit of tinkering from the manufacturers side does often no harm. A fraction of treble roll-off, perhaps a cable to subtly reduce a little bass, even speaker positioning which goes against recommendations just to take the edge of something ... .

It may not be what a recording engineer needs but it may make it easier to live with. It is also what makes this hobby interesting. The variety. We don't all drive the same cars, live in identical looking houses, wear the same clothes bla bla bla ...

On the other hand, some pro speakers have handy tone controlls built-in such as treble and bass shelfing, handy. I certainly would never dismiss the active option either but its not what everyone needs or wants.

 

[davedotco]

Scale, power and presence...

Is presence same as ambience in english? The sense of being there, enveloped by sound and details, not just thrown in your face.

Not quite.

Presence (in this context) refers to the sense of 'being there', the shear solidity and believability (?) of the music being reproduced in front of you, ambience is the reproduction of what is going on 'around' the music, most notably the acoustic feel of the space it is being played in. (real or constructed)

Note. Presence is also used to denote a frequency band in the hi-mid/treble areas, around 5khz area, boosting this band is said to give vocals more 'presence', different thing entirely.

 

[drummerman]

Not quite.

Presence (in this context) refers to the sense of 'being there', the shear solidity and believability (?) of the music being reproduced in front of you, ...

That will also require recordings of impeccable quality. How many of those are there?

Your 'perfect' system will make those sound glorious, the rest (majority?) crxxxx.

I'd rather have a good compromise and enjoy listening to all sorts of music, recorded perfectly or not.

 

[Vladimir]

Scale, power and presence...

Is presence same as ambience in english? The sense of being there, enveloped by sound and details, not just thrown in your face.

Not quite.

Presence (in this context) refers to the sense of 'being there', the shear solidity and believability (?) of the music being reproduced in front of you, ambience is the reproduction of what is going on 'around' the music, most notably the acoustic feel of the space it is being played in. (real or constructed)

Note. Presence is also used to denote a frequency band in the hi-mid/treble areas, around 5khz area, boosting this band is said to give vocals more 'presence', different thing entirely.

Hmmm. I reckon ambience comes down to mostly recording/production and presence mostly to hi-fi reproduction capabilities. These probably overlap but I understand the difference. In that case presence is what I require in my hi-fi.

 

[davedotco]

Dave, who do you think are credible domestic speaker manufacturers?

Loads, in fact, cheap mass market tat aside, I don't think the speakers are that much of a problem. There are plenty of spreakers from decent manufacturers from a few hundred pounds upwards that can do pretty much whatever you need in a (restricted) domestic situation.

It is the system context that matters and, as I have said many times, it is not all about the speakers. If you want the presence, punch etc that we are talking about above it is not difficult, just use the best possible source (not expensive with digital) and some proper amplification and you are most of the way there.

A lot of people seem to think that because it is easy to here the difference between speakers, they are the only thing that matter. Confusing 'different' with 'better' causes a lot of people problems, of course some speakers are better than others but until they are driven properly you really do not know what they are capable of.

 

[davedotco]

Not quite.

Presence (in this context) refers to the sense of 'being there', the shear solidity and believability (?) of the music being reproduced in front of you, ...

That will also require recordings of impeccable quality. How many of those are there?

Your 'perfect' system will make those sound glorious, the rest (majority?) crxxxx.

I'd rather have a good compromise and enjoy listening to all sorts of music, recorded perfectly or not.

This is a common view, bet really I don't think so.

Leaving aside some of the real crap recordings, quite 'ordinary' recordings can sound fantastic on such a system, sure some setups are over analytical and pull the music apart but these are then not 'good' systems by any rational sense of the term.

 

[SteveR750]

Not quite.

Presence (in this context) refers to the sense of 'being there', the shear solidity and believability (?) of the music being reproduced in front of you, ...

That will also require recordings of impeccable quality. How many of those are there?

Your 'perfect' system will make those sound glorious, the rest (majority?) crxxxx.

I'd rather have a good compromise and enjoy listening to all sorts of music, recorded perfectly or not.

DM, this was my concern about ATCs before I listened to them - all of the reviews bang on about ruthless with poor recordings. Ruthless is the wrong adjective, indeed you might be able to better distinguish good and bad recordings, but that doesn't make them unlistenable. Everything has more attack, more detail (if it's there). Both of these characteristics result in what I would describe as scale (size of the presentation, the impression of how loud an instrument is relative to the others), presence as in the ambient imaging, placing you there in the room. I think frequency response and tonality is far more influenced by the room, but detail and transient ability are much less so perhaps.

It's these two elements that make music the most realistic and exciting for me, which means I've looked at the power and damping factor of an amp, size and SPL capability of the speakers. Big drivers with big magnets and lots of distortion free excursion. ATC of course don't have an exclusive solution, but at the price there's nothing I could find that betters them.