How to get the best LFE/Bass possible from my setup

[nugget2014]

Im sure i have asked this before. But now i am serious about the matter as i have upgraded my system with the only thing i want to upgrade next is my subwoofer.

I still dont feel i get the best out of it as i possibly could. And i am still trying to achieve sound wise what i hear/feel at the cinema.

The problem is it can go loud enough but it has no impact as such like in an imax cinema you can easily feel the bass when anything big happens onscreen. And ive seen many people with decent subs do reviews saying they got "kicked in the chest" during an LFE heavy moment.

I wonder if its my rooms fault and not the sub. So heres the few questions i am struggling with

Ported or sealed for feeling an impact?

What frequencies does the body feel the most?

Do i get 1 better bigger ported/sealed sub or do i get another sub of the same model and put in another position?

I was looking at the dali k14f. Biggest driver size for the price and more powerful but doesnt go quite as low as my current sub so a tradeoff there. Then theres the svs line.

I would pay upto £1000 for a perfect sub that can go quite low (around 25hz might be fine) and has some impact!

Yet again any help would be greatly appreciated. A sub would be my next purchase now.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

I will be interested in hearing how u get on but my thoughts are that we are always limited by the room and particularly its size. If u want a cinema sound you'll need a cinema. Other comments will be interesting to read.

 

[ellisdj]

Go on you tube or find a disc with lfe test tones

Work your way up from 30hz to 250 - 300hz

See what ones you feel the most - it wont be the 30hz range and it wont be the 250hz.

Then you will know for yourself because people have given you advice before and you have ignored it - you seem the type of guy who wants to do it himself, which is fair enough - so thats how you start.

Best of luck and let us know how you get on

 

[ellisdj]

3 recommendations of subs near your price point and worth stretching to

Power Sound Audio S1500 - this performs very similar to the SVS but with a bigger driver and more output - negligable - the designer of these is the V from SVS btw

or The Arendal Sub 2 - not sure this will have the extension of the 2 above its designed different - but its dual opposed 15 inch drivers so thats naturally going to move a lot more air than a single 13 / 15

I dont know of any others in this price range I would consider

 

[nugget2014]

Go on you tube or find a disc with lfe test tones

Work your way up from 30hz to 250 - 300hz

See what ones you feel the most - it wont be the 30hz range and it wont be the 250hz.

Then you will know for yourself because people have given you advice before and you have ignored it - you seem the type of guy who wants to do it himself, which is fair enough - so thats how you start.

Best of luck and let us know how you get on

Ive done that already. Noted down the volume levels and going to try the sub in a new position since ive moved the seating position forward from last tuesday because of the jump to 4k.

See if that improves it. The sb13 ultra appeals most to me out of the ones listed looks very nice too. Shame theres hardly any up for sale second hand.

Would one sb13 ultra be better than 2 ikon mk2s for sure then?

And i try to follow advice as much as possible!

 

[ellisdj]

You missed the point of the lfe test - turn the system up go through the freq slowlt and see what freq you feel in the body if any.

That will prove to you the area to focus on - if its low bass like 30hz then you need a sub that extends - but there is a trade off - it takes a lot of power to get a small sealed sub to do deep bass - internally eq'd by boost. So the overall output reduces.

Other subs sacrifice the low end more for a punchier sound - you might want this instead - he comes the Arendal.

Dual opposed 15" drivers and 1000w is not to be sniffed at. It was also designed by someone who really knows his onions

 

[ellisdj]

Speak to Nick at Home Sound - you might be able to get a home demo of the SVS - he arranged that for me. I have sonce bought 2 off him and my PJ.

Also Ricky at kalibrate UK might do you a home demo of the PS Audio.

Arendal is bought from LSound and you have 30 or 60 day return.

Start with the SVS and see how you get on - remember its a smooth sounding sub but it integrates with a room so well you can proper turn it up

 

[nugget2014]

Speak to Nick at Home Sound - you might be able to get a home demo of the SVS - he arranged that for me.  I have sonce bought 2 off him and my PJ.

Also Ricky at kalibrate UK might do you a home demo of the PS Audio.

Arendal is bought from LSound and you have 30 or 60 day return.

Start with the SVS and see how you get on - remember its a smooth sounding sub but it integrates with a room so well you can proper turn it up

Home demo sounds good. But how does that work. I pay the price of sub as deposit have it shipped try it out and then send it back if dont like?

 

[bigboss]

XTZ Cinema 1X12 is also worth a look. Amazing value for money.

 

[nugget2014]

Felt some slight air against back of my neck at 30-35hz thats it *SCRATCH*

 

[ellisdj]

1 x 12 won't have the minerals nugget wants 500w 12.

Home demo works different from different retailers but I think generally you buy it them get your money back on return maybe minus some shipping costs

Well worth it for you to know if it's your sub or something else

 

[nugget2014]

just a quick thought. what kind of SPL are we talking to feel an impact on most 12" subs that are in the same calibre as mine? because i have felt something once briefly, was about 105db

 

[nugget2014]

1 x 12 won't have the minerals nugget wants 500w 12.

Home demo works different from different retailers but I think generally you buy it them get your money back on return maybe minus some shipping costs

Well worth it for you to know if it's your sub or something else

seen a monitor audio gold sub was 15" driver and like 1000w, £999 used on avforums a while ago. wonder if that is similar performance to any of the subs mentioned earlier. would be interesting if another popped up in the future.

 

[bigboss]

1 x 12 won't have the minerals nugget wants 500w 12.

Isn't 1X12 a 900w 12?

 

[ellisdj]

I looked it up thought it said 500w. If 900w it could be an option to have 2

I still don't think 1 small sub will be enough what nugget wants but he may be happier why he needs to try.

I think the arendal might suit him best purely on more cone area for his money.

But the xtz 3x12 is supposed to be awesome which is 3 500w amps and 3 x 12 drivers
so2 xtz x12 will be 2/3 that.

Yes is potentially another option BB

 

[bigboss]

1X12 is only £600 each, so there is a potential to buy 2, especially second hand, or if the dealer agrees on a deal to bring the price closer to £1000.

Arendal is an interesting option....I've been reading about them for a few months. Great value subwoofers.

 

[ellisdj]

I still think the reason your not feeling bass is the same as I didnt used to. Your room is a similar size to mine I am sure I have seen the dimension somewhere.

I had the same thing for years loads of rumble but no tactile bass that you feel. It was like a part of the sound was missing and I noticed it also going to the Imax to see Hunger Games 2 - when the trains panned into shot you felt it - at home nothing. That just one example

2 things I did to fix this that I have suggested to you before.

1 make sure you have the bass time aligned with my front speakers - I dont use an auto setup like Audessey which you would expect to get it spot on and even if I did use it I wouldnt trust it to get it spot on so would check this myself.

2. Run dual subs with higher crossovers. I dont think you can run higher crossovers with a single sub because you can locate the source but you 100% can do it with 2 or more subs. Higher crossover (150hz I am limited to) is instantly a much punchier sound but you need a sub that works well in this range - SVS SB13 Ultra I can confirm 100% does. Other options you might need to ask the Manufacturer.

- couple benefits to this - you have a bigger driver (more air moved) normally better placed for bass doing more of the 100hz ish range of bass and I think from 50 - 150hz is what you feel in the body and 50hz down is more pressure that you feel differently like in your chair more than in your body / chest. Its no good having loads of rumble without the tactile bass - I think the tactile bass is more important because that ties in the sound properly to the image and makes the sound more full range sounding. If you hear a system do this well its easy to realise when its missing - I think this is what your experiencing Nugget and its the same as I was too. Its not just us either I have heard this in a lot of places.

It doesnt matter what sub you have either I have heard the same sound be missing with different types of subs in different rooms from a BK400, SVS, MK's to a Paradigm Sub15 or something like that about £3k worth with PBK - 15" 3000w or whatever - still the same

In the Arendal thread one of the Arendal tech guys says a cause of this i.e. the speaker not doing enough of this important bass range is floor bounce cancellation - you dont suffer this with a sub as its generally on the floor already. So there is technical explanation to the problem.

There are other benefits to dual subs too.

If you home demo any sub you will be able to try this out for yourself by using your exisitng sub and see if it works as I think it will - I would have both subs at the front of the room in the corners best you can with your door being there, not too far from the speakers

I would also run both subs hot as necessary for balance - there is an excellent test scene in the Hobbit 2 where Bilbo is searching for the Archemstone and the Dragon comes out for the first time.

The vocal for the Dragon should engulf you with bass - but clear vocal bass, really big full deep vocal as he is talking that should pretty much fill the room. This can be missing because of the system balance - i..e too much volume from the speakers compared to the subs. If you are maxed out on sub volume output - start backing the speaker volumes in the trim setting down until it balances better. Auddessey normally does a good job of system balance so you might not need to chasnge anything but its an idea. The more cone area you will have from the subs the less this will be needed naturally.

I heard this scene at Gecko with 8 x 18 subs and when I came home that was a point of refence for me to rebalance my system to and my systems was miles away. Since then I have had no incling to change anything, its been one of those things I have done thats been a real system game changer, since doingthis I have loads of tactile bass - but without hearing it first its hard to know that scene balance I am on about to use as a reference point I admit.

(A good example in the new Star wars there is a Star Destroyer pan from right to left near the end you get different tactile bass samples before the ship passes to when its the shot - so the before it passes bass sample / effect pans right to left in front of the ship (pre echo of it) then with the ship on screen you have a different bass sample / effect the familiar star destroyer sound that follows the pan right to left - you feel it all in your body and hear it. Its not a kick in the chest but its still awesome and I bet a lot of systems setup wouldnt do it like that)

 

[nugget2014]

I still think the reason your not feeling bass is the same as I didnt used to. Your room is a similar size to mine I am sure I have seen the dimension somewhere.

I had the same thing for years loads of rumble but no tactile bass that you feel. It was like a part of the sound was missing and I noticed it also going to the Imax to see Hunger Games 2 - when the trains panned into shot you felt it - at home nothing. That just one example

2 things I did to fix this that I have suggested to you before.

1 make sure you have the bass time aligned with my front speakers - I dont use an auto setup like Audessey which you would expect to get it spot on and even if I did use it I wouldnt trust it to get it spot on so would check this myself.

2. Run dual subs with higher crossovers. I dont think you can run higher crossovers with a single sub because you can locate the source but you 100% can do it with 2 or more subs. Higher crossover (150hz I am limited to) is instantly a much punchier sound but you need a sub that works well in this range - SVS SB13 Ultra I can confirm 100% does. Other options you might need to ask the Manufacturer.

- couple benefits to this - you have a bigger driver (more air moved) normally better placed for bass doing more of the 100hz ish range of bass and I think from 50 - 150hz is what you feel in the body and 50hz down is more pressure that you feel differently like in your chair more than in your body / chest. Its no good having loads of rumble without the tactile bass - I think the tactile bass is more important because that ties in the sound properly to the image and makes the sound more full range sounding. If you hear a system do this well its easy to realise when its missing - I think this is what your experiencing Nugget and its the same as I was too. Its not just us either I have heard this in a lot of places.

It doesnt matter what sub you have either I have heard the same sound be missing with different types of subs in different rooms from a BK400, SVS, MK's to a Paradigm Sub15 or something like that about £3k worth with PBK - 15" 3000w or whatever - still the same

In the Arendal thread one of the Arendal tech guys says a cause of this i.e. the speaker not doing enough of this important bass range is floor bounce cancellation - you dont suffer this with a sub as its generally on the floor already. So there is technical explanation to the problem.

There are other benefits to dual subs too.

If you home demo any sub you will be able to try this out for yourself by using your exisitng sub and see if it works as I think it will - I would have both subs at the front of the room in the corners best you can with your door being there, not too far from the speakers

I would also run both subs hot as necessary for balance - there is an excellent test scene in the Hobbit 2 where Bilbo is searching for the Archemstone and the Dragon comes out for the first time.

The vocal for the Dragon should engulf you with bass - but clear vocal bass, really big full deep vocal as he is talking that should pretty much fill the room. This can be missing because of the system balance - i..e too much volume from the speakers compared to the subs. If you are maxed out on sub volume output - start backing the speaker volumes in the trim setting down until it balances better. Auddessey normally does a good job of system balance so you might not need to chasnge anything but its an idea. The more cone area you will have from the subs the less this will be needed naturally.

I heard this scene at Gecko with 8 x 18 subs and when I came home that was a point of refence for me to rebalance my system to and my systems was miles away. Since then I have had no incling to change anything, its been one of those things I have done thats been a real system game changer, since doingthis I have loads of tactile bass - but without hearing it first its hard to know that scene balance I am on about to use as a reference point I admit.

(A good example in the new Star wars there is a Star Destroyer pan from right to left near the end you get different tactile bass samples before the ship passes to when its the shot - so the before it passes bass sample / effect pans right to left in front of the ship (pre echo of it) then with the ship on screen you have a different bass sample / effect the familiar star destroyer sound that follows the pan right to left - you feel it all in your body and hear it. Its not a kick in the chest but its still awesome and I bet a lot of systems setup wouldnt do it like that)

Not possible to have 2 subs at the front due to space limitations plus i ttied the sub at the front yesterday and it was terrible. Might be different if i had 1 at front 1 back corner don'tknow. Maybe its best to see if dual would work before anything else. Ill have a look at the sub bb mentioned

 

[nugget2014]

Wonder how the 1x12 compares to a pb-2000. So far the most realistic options are

Dual pb/sb2000, dual 1x12, single sb13 ultra. Although still not sure if sealed or ported might work best for what i want.

 

[ellisdj]

You might have to stack them then - or go front and back - that can work but they need to be in phase and 1 will be out of phase to the other most probably.

Phase of the sub could be the issue anyway - you might be getting cancellation with it at the front. Both my subs are on half phase - but that wasnt guess work I measured and adjusted to get pefect integration with my front L and R speakers

I honestly dont think you will get enough bass ouput from a smaller 500w sub - its like for like with what you have now and thats not cutting it or your doing something wrong.

What about swopping the way round you sit - face the other way - its worth it if you can put your subs and speakers in a better location?

 

[ellisdj]

Wonder how the 1x12 compares to a pb-2000. So far the most realistic options are

Dual pb/sb2000, dual 1x12, single sb13 ultra. Although still not sure if sealed or ported might work best for what i want.

Dont rule out Arendal or PowerSound Audio either

 

[nugget2014]

You might have to stack them then - or go front and back - that can work but they need to be in phase and 1 will be out of phase to the other most probably.

Phase of the sub could be the issue anyway - you might be getting cancellation with it at the front. Both my subs are on half phase - but that wasnt guess work I measured and adjusted to get pefect integration with my front L and R speakers

I honestly dont think you will get enough bass ouput from a smaller 500w sub - its like for like with what you have now and thats not cutting it or your doing something wrong.

What about swopping the way round you sit - face the other way - its worth it if you can put your subs and speakers in a better location?

not possible to change it the other way around. i've thought long and hard and in my room just doesnt work. my sub has 2 phase settings theres no haflway point for example

 

[nugget2014]

do you know of any 18" subs that are similar in price? worth a shot. arendal is expensive but looks amazing

 

[ellisdj]

The arendal sub 2 is approx £1172 its the cheapest out of the 3 I recommended

 

[bigboss]

do you know of any 18" subs that are similar in price? worth a shot. arendal is expensive but looks amazing

Bear in mind that with increase in cone diameter, the subwoofer has to move that much harder, and it will get slower. That's why there aren't many 18" subs around.

Those Arendal prices are in €, not £.