How Much Power Do I Actually Need..(revisited)

[gasolin]

Your typical ferro-fluid cooled dome tweeter can handle 500-600W in transient peaks. The woofers much more.

OK. So what's the limiting factor? The crossover? A quick look at a few bookshelf speakers show relatively low power handling capacity.

Kef LS50 - 100W

Monitor Audio GX50 - 100W

Revel Perfoma M150 - 120W

B&W 805 D3 - 120W

Spendor D1 - 125W

I'd be hesistant to throw large amounts of power at products when the manufacturers advise against it.

What's most importent is clean sound,big amp (watt) since you then could drive the speakers to the levels you like with no distortion

As long as it sounds clean your fine, distortion (unless it's brian may,jimi hendrix) turn the volume down instantly

 

[Ajani]

Gentlemen, I understand all the points you're making about not cutting off peaks, dynamic range, effortless performance of the amp etc...

Maybe I'm just too conservative but I can easily imagine someone not paying attention to the volume at a party with some tiny standmount and doing damage to the speaker when bass peaks demand the full brunt of a big amp. What I can't imagine is the manufacturer honouring the warranty in that case; since they recommended a 20 - 100 watt amp but the consumer opted to use a 300 watt amp.

Also, I keep thinking that if you want dynamics you should get a pair of big hairy chested towers that will give you the kind of scale and can really soak up the power of a big amp. I generally thought people bought tiny speakers for pinpoint imaging, midrange purity or some other HiFi nonsense.

Finally, a really petty reason but I'm just imagining someone using a 80LB 300 Watt amp with a tiny pair of monitors like the LS50. I thought a major part of using tiny speakers is because they are supposed to be less visually imposing that towers. So unless you're planning to use a small class D amp, it would look pretty silly IMO.

 

[gasolin]

You should choose something you think sound good and for your gonna use it for

not because it has a certain size, many high end amps are huge

50-60 lbs 22-27kg but only have 2x100-150 watt

Speakers like the Dynaudio DM2/7 are not big but do get quiet loud/punchy

 

[Vladimir]

Gentlemen, I understand all the points you're making about not cutting off peaks, dynamic range, effortless performance of the amp etc...

Maybe I'm just too conservative but I can easily imagine someone not paying attention to the volume at a party with some tiny standmount and doing damage to the speaker when bass peaks demand the full brunt of a big amp. What I can't imagine is the manufacturer honouring the warranty in that case; since they recommended a 20 - 100 watt amp but the consumer opted to use a 300 watt amp.

Also, I keep thinking that if you want dynamics you should get a pair of big hairy chested towers that will give you the kind of scale and can really soak up the power of a big amp. I generally thought people bought tiny speakers for pinpoint imaging, midrange purity or some other HiFi nonsense.

Finally, a really petty reason but I'm just imagining someone using a 80LB 300 Watt amp with a tiny pair of monitors like the LS50. I thought a major part of using tiny speakers is because they are supposed to be less visually imposing that towers. So unless you're planning to use a small class D amp, it would look pretty silly IMO.

Pro amps these days are very light and cool, being class D.

 

[Ajani]

Those Crowns look pretty nice, despite being a pro amp with the usual rack mount holes. Looks like I've found my next amp

 

[JMac]

What the amps in the second picture?

 

[chebby]

What the amps in the second picture?

Naim

 

[davedotco]

Gentlemen, I understand all the points you're making about not cutting off peaks, dynamic range, effortless performance of the amp etc...

Maybe I'm just too conservative but I can easily imagine someone not paying attention to the volume at a party with some tiny standmount and doing damage to the speaker when bass peaks demand the full brunt of a big amp. What I can't imagine is the manufacturer honouring the warranty in that case; since they recommended a 20 - 100 watt amp but the consumer opted to use a 300 watt amp.

Also, I keep thinking that if you want dynamics you should get a pair of big hairy chested towers that will give you the kind of scale and can really soak up the power of a big amp. I generally thought people bought tiny speakers for pinpoint imaging, midrange purity or some other HiFi nonsense.

Finally, a really petty reason but I'm just imagining someone using a 80LB 300 Watt amp with a tiny pair of monitors like the LS50. I thought a major part of using tiny speakers is because they are supposed to be less visually imposing that towers. So unless you're planning to use a small class D amp, it would look pretty silly IMO.

You are really not getting this are you? It has been explained above, several times in different ways.

Unless you go to stupid extremes a 300watt amplifier will not blow up a small speaker, unless you are using the cheapest speaker with rubbish drive units, crap design and next to no power handling, anything remotely decent will be fine.

You 'party scenario' is typical of the confusion here. Yes you could easily blow up a good pair of speakers, LS50s say, with your big amp, no problem. But you would have to drive it into clipping to do it...!

In a party situation several things happen, people are good absorbers of sound energy, fill your room with bodies and the percieved volume will go down, similarly these same people chatting anf having a good time are noisy, very noisy, so background noise goes up.

You amplifier is required to provide extra power to overcome these effects, turn it up 10dB (twice as loud) to overcome the energy being absorbed by the bodies, then 10dB more to make the music audible over the background noise and you are already asking the amplifier to produce 100 times the power you might normally use. A bit of extra bass boost, a touch more volume and that is 1000 times the power.

This is what people simply don't get, power requirements in such situations goes up exponentially, you would soon be asking your 300 watt amplifier to produce more than it is capable, so it will be driven into clip. Ie high levels of distortion and this will destroy your speakers. Given that a 50 watt amplifier will clip sooner than a 300 watt amplifier, it is easier to blow up your LS50s with a 50 watter than one at 300 watts.

 

[Al ears]

Good explanation Davedotco. Thought we'd established that a while ago.

 

[JMac]

What the amps in the second picture?

Naim

Ah, I was expecting them to be another example of pro audio amps.

 

[davedotco]

Good explanation Davedotco. Thought we'd established that a while ago.

I know, sorry for the repitition.

But some people really don't get it at all, I blame the parents...*biggrin*

 

[Ajani]

Good explanation Davedotco. Thought we'd established that a while ago.

I know, sorry for the repitition.

But some people really don't get it at all, I blame the parents...*biggrin*

Gentlemen, if you find that I lack the intelligence to comprehend your points, then you don't need to continue responding to me. There's no need to get frustrated.

Anyway, I don't have any issue with the explanations about low powered amps clipping etc. What I still haven't received, up to now, is a satisfactory answer as to why manufacturers put a recommended max power of only around 100 watts on these small speakers. All the explanations so far pretty much just regard that max as irrelevant. I don't consider it to be silly to actually pay some attention to the recommendations made by the manufacturer. This was the basis for my initial question and remains the key point I don't get. Why is it that so many manufacturers clearly put the max limit if it is basically irrelevant?

 

[CnoEvil]

What I still haven't received, up to now, is a satisfactory answer as to why manufacturers put a recommended max power of only around 100 watts on these small speakers.

To cover their arse, perhaps.

 

[Ajani]

What I still haven't received, up to now, is a satisfactory answer as to why manufacturers put a recommended max power of only around 100 watts on these small speakers.

To cover their arse, perhaps.

Sure, but why do they need coverage if they're not exposed?

All the explanations so far basically just cover the dangers of clipping when using underpowered amps, and completely ignore or just brush off whether there is any real danger from using overpowered ones.

 

[davedotco]

As given by manufacturers are very approximate and deliberately vague.

How is the rating measured, sine wave? Continuous pink noise? 'Standard' music Signal? Peak power?Who knows? I don't and I actually understand this stuff.

Unless the specification is precise they really are pretty meaningless. A massive power amplifier could overdrive speakers even without clipping, but it would take a ridiculous mismatch of multi hundred watt amplifiers and low powered speakers. Lets say you had a 500 watt amplifier, playing EDM or rock music with a limited dinamic range with say, peaks just 6dB above average, this would mean the amplifier is delivering 125 watts average, enough to blow up most budget and mid-fi speakers.

If that is what is bothering you then I guess you are right, but you would have to be a bit of an idiot to build a mismatched system like this and then play it at the astonishingly loud levels these sort of powers would produce. In the real world it is unlikely to happen.

The industry is mostly based around budget and mid-fi amplifiers in the 40-80 watt range so speaker manufacturers want to make sure that buyers see their product as suitable. The best you can expect from a speaker manufacturer is a guide as to the power that would be suited to their speakers for most people in normal, everyday circumstances.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Good explanation Davedotco. Thought we'd established that a while ago.

I know, sorry for the repitition.

But some people really don't get it at all, I blame the parents...*biggrin*

Gentlemen, if you find that I lack the intelligence to comprehend your points, then you don't need to continue responding to me. There's no need to get frustrated.

Anyway, I don't have any issue with the explanations about low powered amps clipping etc. What I still haven't received, up to now, is a satisfactory answer as to why manufacturers put a recommended max power of only around 100 watts on these small speakers. All the explanations so far pretty much just regard that max as irrelevant. I don't consider it to be silly to actually pay some attention to the recommendations made by the manufacturer. This was the basis for my initial question and remains the key point I don't get. Why is it that so many manufacturers clearly put the max limit if it is basically irrelevant?

A few of my last posts its so people will buy them as lots or most hifi is cheap and they want to sell as many as possible.

But just think why when speaker manufactuers exibit at shows to demonstrate how good they sound do they use more powerful amps?

Trust me i used wharfedale dentin speakers rated at 25w(+-) with a roksan kandy k2 at 120rms and it sounded great. And a resonable volume also. I never damaged them or heard them distort at all.

Even if you match perfectly an amp power with the recomended speaker as you mention, do you think with unresponsible usage of the volume that you cant wreck the speakers? Ita just easier to do so with a weaker amp.

 

[Vladimir]

Those Crowns look pretty nice, despite being a pro amp with the usual rack mount holes. Looks like I've found my next amp

I personally like the looks of the XTI 2000.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

i just read that this amp is 2000w amp and the price is not too bad . anyone no if they sound any good

 

[Vladimir]

Can't comment on that model. The XLS 602 and 802 I liked. Most importantly no annoying hum and hiss.

 

[JMac]

I think if I was getting a pro audo amp I'd get one of these:

http://www.mc2-audio.co.uk/s800.html

 

[Ajani]

i just read that this amp is 2000w amp and the price is not too bad . anyone no if they sound any good

The XLS line seems to have become quite popular thanks in large part to at least 2 reviewers from Hometheatrereview using the XLS 2500 as their reference amps. So there's a lot of audiophiles claiming the XLS line is the real deal. As always you'd have to listen for yourself, as no matter how many people rave about a product, someone else will jump in to say it made their ears bleed.

My heart is set on the XLS 1502 (300 watts per chan @ 8ohms, bridgeable to 1050 watts @ 8). It's Class D and by all accounts, it remains so cool even when running for hours on end, that home users never get the fan to turn on. (so no danger of a ridiculously loud fan spoiling the fun, as occurs with many pro amps).

http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/product_families/xls-drivecore-series

http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/product_families/xls-drivecore-2-series

 

[JMac]

Personal preference but I've not yet heard a Class D amp that I like when compared to a class A/AB.

 

[Vladimir]

I think if I was getting a pro audo amp I'd get one of these:

http://www.mc2-audio.co.uk/s800.html

Very nice performance numbers for that price. Looks very good.

 

[JMac]

Okay, so I've had the Classe for a few weeks now and been able to put a good few hours of listening in. So is the sound better than the Behringer (I'm ignoring build quality for the moment)? Yes, without doubt but its a lot closers than you'd think. The sound is more cohesive and the soundstage is definitely deeper .The sound is cleaner and slightly less muddled but given that new the Classe would have been £3000 and the Behringer £120 there isnt £2880 of improvement. There was more of a noticeable improvement when I moved from MF PWR to the Behringer than the Behringer to the Classe.

Now to build quality. This is definitely where a lot of the money went. Even though it was the smallest amp in the Classe range, its a beast. Build quality and the quality of components is first class, you really do get the feeling its bomb proof.

Will I be keeping the Classe? For the time being, yes. I'm under no pressure to sell it on and I'll wait until christmas is out of the way and then I'll see about picking up a Crown to test in comparision to the Classe.

 

[Vladimir]

IMO, money well spent. Enjoy.