How Much Power Do I Actually Need..(revisited)

[JMac]

IMO, money well spent. Enjoy.

Well, it IS better than the Behringer both in terms of sound and quality and I suppose the cost is all relative and down to the individual. Spending an extra couple of grand to get a better sound might be okay for a lot of folks. Others, might be happier at saving the money and having something still decent.

 

[gasolin]

When i read this How much power do i actually need, i feel i'm not at all have enought power when i try to play loud or just want to play edm

 

[Vladimir]

When i read this How much power do i actually need, i feel i'm not at all have enought power when i try to play loud or just want to play edm

We can easily check that. What's the distance of your listening position; how efficient are your speakers; what is their impedance and power handling; how close to a wall are they; and how many watts in 8 ohms/4ohms is your amp?

 

[steve_1979]

Enough power to drive the speakers without clipping and no less is enough.

Depending on the efficiency of the transducers, the size/type of the listening space, the listeners distance from the speakers, the desired SPL and the type of audio that you're listening to this could be anywhere between a fraction of a watt to many tens of thousands of watts.

 

[gasolin]

When i read this How much power do i actually need, i feel i'm not at all have enought power when i try to play loud or just want to play edm

We can easily check that. What's the distance of your listening position; how efficient are your speakers; what is their impedance and power handling; how close to a wall are they; and how many watts in 8 ohms/4ohms is your amp?

just over 1 feet to rear wall and and almost 3 feet listening distance (40cm and 90 cm) rated at 8 ohm and 89db (here the big brother doesn't have close to 89db it's also rated to, more 80-87db from 60hz to 20.000hz, avarage mabye 83-84db http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/boston-acoustics-a360/A360_spl_out.png/image_view_fullscreen )

Amp 60 watt rms in 8 ohm and 75watt in 4 ohm (guess it's something like 75 watt in 8 ohm and 90 watt in 4 ohm peak power)

 

[Vladimir]

When i read this How much power do i actually need, i feel i'm not at all have enought power when i try to play loud or just want to play edm

We can easily check that. What's the distance of your listening position; how efficient are your speakers; what is their impedance and power handling; how close to a wall are they; and how many watts in 8 ohms/4ohms is your amp?

just over 1 feet to rear wall and and almost 3 feet listening distance (40cm and 90 cm) rated at 8 ohm and 89db (here the big brother doesn't have close to 89db it's also rated to, more 80-87db from 60hz to 20.000hz, avarage mabye 83-84db http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/boston-acoustics-a360/A360_spl_out.png/image_view_fullscreen )

Amp 60 watt rms in 8 ohm and 75watt in 4 ohm (guess it's something like 75 watt in 8 ohm and 90 watt in 4 ohm peak power)

Use this to calculate: Amplifier Power Required

Ideally I put Amplifier Headroom with 15dB, but since you are in a room with speakers close to walls, that adds at least exra 3dB sound reinforcement, so 12dB amp headroom is enough.

Calculations say that you'll do good with a 63Wpc in 8 ohms amp. Your 60W amp is more like 70W before clipping (1% THD).

If you move 1m further you'll need 252Wpc in 8 ohms amp. 1.5m will require 142Wpc in 8 ohms.

 

[Andrewjvt]

When i read this How much power do i actually need, i feel i'm not at all have enought power when i try to play loud or just want to play edm?

We can easily check that. What's the distance of your listening position; how efficient are your speakers; what is their impedance and power handling; how close to a wall are they; and how many watts in 8 ohms/4ohms is your amp?

just over 1 feet to rear wall and and almost 3 feet listening distance (40cm and 90 cm) rated at 8 ohm and 89db (here the big brother doesn't have close to 89db it's also rated to, more 80-87db from 60hz to 20.000hz, avarage mabye 83-84db  http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/boston-acoustics-a360/A360_spl_out.png/image_view_fullscreen )

Amp 60 watt rms in 8 ohm and 75watt in 4 ohm (guess it's something like 75 watt in 8 ohm and 90 watt in 4 ohm peak power)

Use this to calculate: Amplifier Power Required

Ideally I put Amplifier Headroom with 15dB, but since you are in a room with speakers close to walls, that adds at least exra 3dB sound reinforcement, so 12dB amp headroom is enough.

Calculations say that you'll do good with a 63Wpc in 8 ohms amp. Your 60W amp is more like 70W before clipping (1% THD).?

If you move 1m further you'll need 252Wpc in 8 ohms amp. 1.5m will require 142Wpc in 8 ohms.

Amazing just how much more power is required just by raising the db slighty. My amps volume goes from 1 - 99 equal incriments (not like my old amp that was almost full power at 11 o clock) and my normal listening position is 40 and when i want louder 45. Now im really interested to know what db that is.
ill need to take a reading isuppose. Ill try download an app on my smart phone.
Its very interesting.

 

[davedotco]

Amazing just how much more power is required just by raising the db slighty. My amps volume goes from 1 - 99 equal incriments (not like my old amp that was almost full power at 11 o clock) and my normal listening position is 40 and when i want louder 45. Now im really interested to know what db that is. ill need to take a reading isuppose. Ill try download an app on my smart phone. Its very interesting.

You really need to read this and the original thread. It is all explained, several times in fact.

The simple conclusion is that, to play regular recordings on a well matched system at neighbour friendly levels, a handful of watts is all you need.

The moment you require something more 'difficult', less sensitive speakers, more demanding recordings, higher levels, a bit more bass etc, etc power requirements rise exponentially.

If you are not sure what that means, look it up.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Amazing just how much more power is required just by raising the db slighty. My amps volume goes from 1 - 99 equal incriments (not like my old amp that was almost full power at 11 o clock) and my normal listening position is 40 and when i want louder 45. Now im really interested to know what db that is. ill need to take a reading isuppose. Ill try download an app on my smart phone. Its very interesting.

You really need to read this and the original thread. It is all explained, several times in fact.

The simple conclusion is that, to play regular recordings on a well matched system at neighbour friendly levels, a handful of watts is all you need.

The moment you require something more 'difficult', less sensitive speakers, more demanding recordings, higher levels, a bit more bass etc, etc power requirements rise exponentially.

If you are not sure what that means, look it up.

Ive explained power myself in this thread. Thats why i chose a relàtive high powered amp. I was refering to the calculator. I want to know what my sound level is in db
At my comfortable listening level and how many watts im using myself just out of interest.

 

[NS496]

K

Amazing just how much more power is required just by raising the db slighty. My amps volume goes from 1 - 99 equal incriments (not like my old amp that was almost full power at 11 o clock) and my normal listening position is 40 and when i want louder 45. Now im really interested to know what db that is. ill need to take a reading isuppose. Ill try download an app on my smart phone. Its very interesting.

You really need to read this and the original thread. It is all explained, several times in fact.

The simple conclusion is that, to play regular recordings on a well matched system at neighbour friendly levels, a handful of watts is all you need.

The moment you require something more 'difficult', less sensitive speakers, more demanding recordings, higher levels, a bit more bass etc, etc power requirements rise exponentially.

If you are not sure what that means, look it up.

Finally, some sense. I think after all the recent posts on the subject, everybody by now will agree that you'll need monster amps and big speakers and room treatments if you hope to recreate a closer respresentation of a live performance or listen to highly processed EDM which will drive comsumer amps to its knees - power requirements are not linear, thanks... Anything less is simply 'not hifi'... And 10dB peaks need 10x the power , and 3dB increaseed double the power and its about 'headroom' and not listening volume, and so forth....

that being said, in actual fact I have to listen to music, mindful of neighbours, mindful of the kids, from a recording mastered not 'recreate reality' but sound good on 'average systems'... So, even though I appreciate that the odd peak might clip occasionally (although I'd properly not even realize it), if I use 1-2Watts average (because my kistening levels are low out of necessity) and peaks shoots up to 20-30w (because of the exponentiality of power requirements) I'm still fine with most decent 'entry to mid level' amps, and I can still enjoy my music on a system that haven't ruined my retirement savings and still sound somewhat 'better' than 'a denon mini system'. It will be impossible to recreate true 'concert levels' with my 30wpc-60wpc amp, but maybe I simply never want to!!?? (I always have tinnitus after any concert anyway...) I guess it is not 'hifi', lets call it 'quality music reproduction', and you don't need to ruin your life savings (and interior decoration) to be able to enjoy quality music reproduction.

So while I see rhe whole argument as a great justification for high-end hifi and rediculously powerful amps, I still don't think you 'need' (want maybe) to enjoy great sounding music at home at the cost of all other considerations.

 

[lindsayt]

What sort of live concert does anyone want to recreate at a 1 to 1 volume ratio?

A string quartet? A solo piano piece? Those would be easy and would require 1 watt or less with most speakers and rooms.

A live unamplified jazz band? You'd be looking at peaks into the 90's dbs. Most systems could do that.

A Bach or Mozart type orchestral piece. Again most systems should be able to do that.

The last movement of the 1812 (minus canons). Depends if you want to recreate sitting in the middle of the orchestra, in the front row, middle of the concert hall, rear of the hall.

Live rock or pop concert. Depends if you're talking about back of the concert hall for Richard Thompson or front row in front of a speaker stack for Kiss.

To be honest, for the vast majority of the time I wouldn't want to even recreate the volume at the rear of a Richard Thompson concert. I wouldn't want to recreate a full orchestra going at full chat either. Both are too loud for me at home. Even if music is being replayed with minimal distortion (of all types), when it gets over 80 dbs on the peaks at my listening postion, that's when I start to think it's loud. Anything over 90 dbs on the peaks makes me want to instinctively turn it down or run away from it (alcohol can suppress these instincts).

My background noise level in my listening room is 38 to 43 dbs. That gives me a comfortable 40 dbs of dynamic headroom. Which is plenty for every rock and pop recording that I own. I've not measured Ravel's Bolero yet...

 

[gasolin]

I feel i can't play loud, not ridiculous loud,just loud with no distortion

When i wan't to play loud there might be some high frequency distortion, harsness or muddy bass (if it's edm,muddy bass) it doesn't sound punchy enough(lack of power from the amp),since bass requires much more power not to be dynamic compromised........ my speakers need more power.

When theres not enough power from the amp the bass can sound less punchy and muddy

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0907/

And what many of us don't realize until we hear it, is that clean undistorted loud sound often does not sound that "loud." The key here is that in most or our home listening, there are small amounts of distortion caused by a lack of dynamic headroom (but more on that next month). It's the distortion that makes it sound "loud" in a domestic setting. To remove those distortions and increase dynamic headroom relates to even more power. We've become accustomed to accepting some distortion with our reproduced music, because all amplifier's distortion ratings gradually increase as they approach their output limits or slightly clip the audio signals. When that happens, we turn down the volume, because distortion starts to intrude on our listening pleasure, and it sounds "too loud."

The lesson in all this is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers. In the scheme of high fidelity, that last barrier to realism is having enough power and being able to approximate real-life loudness levels.

Makes me wan't to sell my amp and get a 150-200 watt in 8 ohm amp, it's not about playing so loud that your annoying you neighbors or go half deaf in a few years, it's about playing loud with no distortion,with lot's of dynamic headroom (when you do listen to loud music), high end music is about music sounding good, also when you play loud, that's why a high end amp can be huge even when it's not that powerfull compared to a smaller sized amp but equal powerfull (watt) amp,beacuse it needs a big power supply to be able to handle all kind of loads even when it's only rated at 100watt in 8 ohm (it's often rated at 200 watt in 4 ohm and 400watt in 2 ohm,where a smaller sized amp with also 100watt watt in 8 ohm can't deliver that much power in 4/2 ohm)

 

[manicm]

People would do good to note that at least 90% of speaker specs which state 8 ohm impedance are basically lies. Read them as 6 ohms nominal, Hifi News and the like have invariably proved this. In a nutshell true 8 ohm speakers rarely exist, or maybe your JBLs, or Klipsch maybe, and your pricy PMCs.

Also note, probably to their benefit, how Cyrus now only state power outputs at 6 ohms for their integrated amps.

 

[Vladimir]

Total amplifier power required in various applications

Nearfield monitoring: 25 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 250 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)

Home stereo: 150 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 1,500 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)

Folk music in a coffee shop with 50 seats: 25 to 250 W

Folk music in a medium-size auditorium, club or house of worship with 150 to 250 seats: 95 to 250 W

Folk music at a small outdoor festival (50 feet from speaker to audience): 250 W

Pop or jazz music in a medium-size auditorium. club or house of worship with 150 to 250 seats: 250 to 750 W

Pop or jazz music in a 2000-seat concert hall: 400 to 1,200 W

Rock music in a medium-size auditorium, club or house of worship with 150 to 250 seats: At least 1,500 W

Rock music at a small outdoor festival (50 feet from speaker to audience): At least 1,000 to 3,000 W

Rock or heavy metal music in a stadium, arena or ampitheater (100 to 300 feet from speaker to audience): At least 4,000 to 15,000 W

 

[manicm]

When i read this How much power do i actually need, i feel i'm not at all have enought power when i try to play loud or just want to play edm

We can easily check that. What's the distance of your listening position; how efficient are your speakers; what is their impedance and power handling; how close to a wall are they; and how many watts in 8 ohms/4ohms is your amp?

just over 1 feet to rear wall and and almost 3 feet listening distance (40cm and 90 cm) rated at 8 ohm and 89db (here the big brother doesn't have close to 89db it's also rated to, more 80-87db from 60hz to 20.000hz, avarage mabye 83-84db http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/boston-acoustics-a360/A360_spl_out.png/image_view_fullscreen )

Amp 60 watt rms in 8 ohm and 75watt in 4 ohm (guess it's something like 75 watt in 8 ohm and 90 watt in 4 ohm peak power)

Use this to calculate: Amplifier Power Required

Ideally I put Amplifier Headroom with 15dB, but since you are in a room with speakers close to walls, that adds at least exra 3dB sound reinforcement, so 12dB amp headroom is enough.

Calculations say that you'll do good with a 63Wpc in 8 ohms amp. Your 60W amp is more like 70W before clipping (1% THD).

If you move 1m further you'll need 252Wpc in 8 ohms amp. 1.5m will require 142Wpc in 8 ohms.

Why does this calculator not take into account impedance?

 

[gasolin]

Also wonder why a pair of wharfedale diamond 220 is rated only at 96 peak spl since it's rated at 86 db and up to 100 watt, it's + 20 db(100watt)+86db = 106 db, so is there a loss of 10 db or is max power 10 watt? (10 watt=10db+86db=96db)

A pair of krk rokit powered 5 g3 is rated at 106db (20watt for top and 50watt for the woofer pr speaker)

 

[Vladimir]

Why does this calculator not take into account impedance?

The calculator doesn't but you do. If the calculator result shows that you need say 500W for 90dB continuous, if your speakers are 4 ohms nominal, you make sure your amp has at least 500W in 4 ohms. If your speakers are 8 ohms nominal, you make sure your amp is rated at least for 500W in 8 ohms.

 

[lindsayt]

Total amplifier power required in various applications

Nearfield monitoring: 25 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 250 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)

Home stereo: 150 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 1,500 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)...

Who here actually ever listens at 85 dbs average at their listening position with peaks at 100 dbs at home?

Come on guys, buy or borrow a calibrated sound meter and measure it!

For me it's more like 70 to 85 db peaks with the average being whatever that works out at with the recording. Dropping to lower levels for late night listening.

And I think it's nonsense to say that undistorted dynamic music doesn't necessarily sound loud when it's played loud.

Uncompressed, undistorted, dynamic music sounds loud to me if the average level is 65 to 75 dbs and the peaks are hitting 90 dbs or more. Loud in a slap me in the head / drive a spike through my ears and directly into my brain kind of way.

Although it is fair to say that distorted music (and compression is a form of distortion, as is an over lean tonal balance) can sound really annoying from quite low levels. In a "turn that racket off!" kind of way.

 

[Vladimir]

No one is coercing people into changing their listening habbits and buying bigger amps. We are merely discussing the merits of amplifier headroom.

 

[chebby]

Who here actually ever listens at 85 dbs average at their listening position with peaks at 100 dbs at home?

No-one who values their hearing, but it looks good to say you do.

Only an idiot would boast that he regularly enjoys looking directly at the sun, but if you boast of the aural equivalent then you're a dude.

 

[Vladimir]

A distorted transistor 2.5W radio playing Rap can sound far too loud. Undistorted music can be tolerated to surprisingly high DB levels.

I agree. "Too loud" is most of the time a distortion issue, not a SPL thing.

As I said, very much a subjective thing.

The outer ear is, effectively a horn, in reverse. Think of victorian 'ear trumpets' and scale down.

In any horn, distrortion is proportional to air pressure, loud sounds produce high pressure, which produces distortion, whivh in turn produces the impression of loudness.

If the sound source is already producing distortion of a similar type our ears hear the distortion and 'assume' loud, even though the measured level might not be. Hence valves plus horn loudspeakers sound louder than low distortion playback at the same measured level.

Hmmm. Maybe lindsayt should measure for distortion since 70dB seems soo loud coming from his system. *pardon*

 

[davedotco]

Who here actually ever listens at 85 dbs average at their listening position with peaks at 100 dbs at home?

No-one who values their hearing, but it looks good to say you do.

Only an idiot would boast that he regularly enjoys looking directly at the sun, but if you boast of the aural equivalent then you're a dude.

I like to listen quite loud on occasion but I doubt I ever come close to the ear bending levels mentioned above.

Anyone who has read the thread would understand that the requirement for high power amplifiers has little to do with loudness. As has been said several times, a handfull of watts is ample for most people, most of the time, no one really disputes that.

What is under discussion is what happens if, for one reason or another, you step outside 'most circumstances' and require your system to handle something different.

Neither you nor I are interested in playing EDM loudly to a roomful of people but some people are, and there are others with different but equally demanding requirements, this thread was an attempt to explain what it takes to meet those requirements

 

[Blacksabbath25]

No one is coercing people into changing their listening habbits and buying bigger amps. We are merely discussing the merits of amplifier headroom.

Found this

Home[/b]

Work[/b]

50 refrigerator50 – 60 electric toothbrush50 – 75 washing machine50 – 75 air conditioner50 – 80 electric shaver55 coffee percolator55 – 70 dishwasher60 sewing machine60 – 85 vacuum cleaner60 – 95 hair dryer65 – 80 alarm clock70 TV audio70 – 80 coffee grinder70 – 95 garbage disposal75 – 85 flush toilet80 pop-up toaster80 doorbell80 ringing telephone80 whistling kettle80 – 90 food mixer or processor80 – 90 blender80 – 95 garbage disposal110 baby crying110 squeaky toy held close to the ear135 noisy squeeze toys[/list]40 quiet office, library50 large office65 – 95 power lawn mower80 manual machine, tools85 handsaw90 tractor90 – 115 subway95 electric drill100 factory machinery100 woodworking class105 snow blower110 power saw110 leafblower120 chain saw, hammer on nail120 pneumatic drills, heavy machine120 jet plane (at ramp)120 ambulance siren125 chain saw130 jackhammer, power drill130 air raid130 percussion section at symphony140 airplane taking off150 jet engine taking off150 artillery fire at 500 feet180 rocket launching [/list]

 

[matt49]

At home I do listen quite loud at times, though only to classical music. I don't particularly enjoy listening to rock/pop loud unless I'm dancing, which I don't do much at home. *nea*

This morning I had Mahler's 5th (Zinman/Tonhalle) on at a nicely loud volume. These were the SPL readings at the listening position:

background noise: 36-37dB

quiet passages: 60-70dB

average: 80dB

louder orchestral tutti: 85-90dB

peaks: 95dB

I happen to have a nasty cough at the moment, so by way of comparison I measured the SPL of myself coughing: 100dB.

 

[steve_1979]

If anyone's measuring the volume using a app on their phone it's usually pretty pointless. Unless you have a proper calibrated microphone then you might as well just guess what SPL you are listening at.