How many employed design engineers read /post

[Thompsonuxb]

SteveR750.... This is the thing.

You, a perfectly rational man can come on this forum and say you can hear differences between 2 amps - well built, fairly expensive, well designed amps.

You know it's not placebo.

Somebody's wrong. Either you're a deluded idiot and you're wrong (because there is no difference to be heard) or they are idiots who don't know what they're talking about.

I've been doing a little amp swapping myself and can hear differences too.....lol.

atthat

The theme running through the forum att....

You get a different presentation from 2 'well' built and designed amps....That's surprising.

Question is SteveR740 are you deluded, a religious fanatic a fool or do those saying it all sound the same wrong?

With reference your particular findings?

We need more of this stuff, and this, even if it's less than half finished...

I'd like to see someone taking a set and testing them until they die (the phones not the tester!) just to see if the results ever stabilise or continue to change throughout the life of the phones/speakers/etc.

It would be interesting if the guy put the ambient temperature alongside the graph to see if that, if it fluctuates, affects the drivers.

A look at amp 'sound'.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-sound-of-an-amplifier

Absolutely! It's nowhere near a complete test, but it's a start. Thanks for the link too, interesting. The one thing the Hegel amp is suposed to be good at it low harmonic and non harmonic distortion, and it really does sound different from the Caspian that it replaced, and that definitley is not a placebo, I can hear spoken words on certain tracks that I have not heard to been able to distinguish. It's logical really; a distortion free digital to analogue conversion, a distortion free electrical gain, and then distortion free electrical signal to sound pressure wave would all sound the same (in the same room). So, you could argue that all amps do sound the same, and if they were designed well enough, they should. The differences we can hear are shortcomings of the design.?

Again, it comes down to the preference for listeining to something as close to the original source, warts and all; or whether a tailored sound is preferable, given it's a leisure experience, not a critical task that we are asking our systems to perform. There is no right or wrong, it's simply down to personal preference. For amny years I have believed that B&O gear is not really "hi-fi", and to many it's not, but that does not mean it cannot (and should not) be enjoyed for what it is. The crime is to waste your money on buying something that you think / told should be "right" but you don't enjoy!

?

If I understood your question, I'd be able to answer it, but if I have got the gist of it, well, just because it's not right, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Meantime, read this, and make your own Fletcher Munson curve. You could then match yours to others and hey presto, be able to trust someone elses ears for you. (I'm not being serious by the way, just in case... )

 

[Thompsonuxb]

With ref to your link Steve, interesting sentence in the Dynamic Range paragraph.

 

[Vladimir]

would be nice, but I think sir troll UXB single handedly proved why very few people with the technical nouse would bother to post. Like i said the other day, I could make a cable company that uses the exact same cables, except for colour, write a load of BS about how the green one is bass heavy, and the red one is good for mids, and people would believe it. I could then come out publicly, say it was all twaddle, show pictures of how it's all made and that they are indeed all the same, but there would be people who would not believe me. There's nothing you can do when faced with that. Nothing at all.

Bias runs wider than just cables in hi-fi. For example, AKG came out with additional 2 iterations after their K701 headphones (K702 and Q701) and has said they all sound the same, with only cosmetic differences and cable options, yet people ran 500 pages of 'I swear I hear differences, sc**w what AKG says'. Everyone who hated the K701 bought the Q701 (the bloody same headphone) and wrote glowing reviews how they are better with more bass, less mids etc.

And then AKG came out with two more variations, with only difference from K701 the ear pads being made softer and more sealing, thus producing 3dB extra percieved bass. People wrote another 500 pages of 'swear I hear differences between the K702 65th Annieversary and K712, sc**w what AKG says about it". Both are the same headphone, different colors only, acknowledged by the manufacturer.

Everyone who said they are the same cans was deemed troll, objectivist bastard robbing happy consumers of their shopping pleasure etc. If a discussion would came to a conclusion (eventually) that yes, those headphones sound and are the same, then egg throwing begins at the Harman/AKG doors for being the evil corporation selling them the same headphone with different colors.

Hi-Fi culture is myth driven. If you bust the myth, you don't get a thank you but a yolk in your face.

You sit comfortably in your chair, listening to your Brahms or whatever, you suddenly jump up and swap from single to bi-wiring and listen for differences? Why? Why is all this paranoia of 'does it sound different' necessary? Who bloody cares? Why is everyone listening for electrons instead of music and then waxing online how they bought a 20W Class A amp because of the music?

 

[spiny norman]

Hi-Fi culture is myth guided

Fikthed that for you.

 

[Rimse]

I think they read what people say abaut sound of their speakers ,amps etc..Not sure abaut this forum.But from others ,yes they do.They even improve some things based on criticism of users.For example: dynaudio made new condidence speakers which sound better at lower volumes,harbeth added punch to shl5+

 

[Vladimir]

Hi-Fi culture is myth guided

Fikthed that for you.

Can you word that with pictures?

 

[spiny norman]

Hi-Fi culture is myth guided

Fikthed that for you.

Can you word that with pictures?

 

[SteveR750]

SteveR750.... This is the thing.

You, a perfectly rational man can come on this forum and say you can hear differences between 2 amps - well built, fairly expensive, well designed amps.

You know it's not placebo.

Somebody's wrong. Either you're a deluded idiot and you're wrong (because there is no difference to be heard) or they are idiots who don't know what they're talking about.

I've been doing a little amp swapping myself and can hear differences too.....lol.

atthat

The theme running through the forum att....

You get a different presentation from 2 'well' built and designed amps....That's surprising.

Question is SteveR740 are you deluded, a religious fanatic a fool or do those saying it all sound the same wrong?

With reference your particular findings?

We need more of this stuff, and this, even if it's less than half finished...

I'd like to see someone taking a set and testing them until they die (the phones not the tester!) just to see if the results ever stabilise or continue to change throughout the life of the phones/speakers/etc.

It would be interesting if the guy put the ambient temperature alongside the graph to see if that, if it fluctuates, affects the drivers.

A look at amp 'sound'.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-sound-of-an-amplifier

Absolutely! It's nowhere near a complete test, but it's a start. Thanks for the link too, interesting. The one thing the Hegel amp is suposed to be good at it low harmonic and non harmonic distortion, and it really does sound different from the Caspian that it replaced, and that definitley is not a placebo, I can hear spoken words on certain tracks that I have not heard to been able to distinguish. It's logical really; a distortion free digital to analogue conversion, a distortion free electrical gain, and then distortion free electrical signal to sound pressure wave would all sound the same (in the same room). So, you could argue that all amps do sound the same, and if they were designed well enough, they should. The differences we can hear are shortcomings of the design.

Again, it comes down to the preference for listeining to something as close to the original source, warts and all; or whether a tailored sound is preferable, given it's a leisure experience, not a critical task that we are asking our systems to perform. There is no right or wrong, it's simply down to personal preference. For amny years I have believed that B&O gear is not really "hi-fi", and to many it's not, but that does not mean it cannot (and should not) be enjoyed for what it is. The crime is to waste your money on buying something that you think / told should be "right" but you don't enjoy!

If I understood your question, I'd be able to answer it, but if I have got the gist of it, well, just because it's not right, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Meantime, read this, and make your own Fletcher Munson curve. You could then match yours to others and hey presto, be able to trust someone elses ears for you. (I'm not being serious by the way, just in case... )

Distortion, or lack of it. Read the links I gave you, and research clipping, and recovery from, just for starters. There's enough to suggest reasons why they don't all sound exactly the same.

I'm puzzled why though a mythbuster feels so obligated to bust said myths? Is it some kind of moral crusade to prevent poor fools being separated from their cash? Or maybe some more altruistic motivation that the rest of society is (also) missing (the point of).

 

[spiny norman]

You seem to have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that belief in myths is somehow connected with bumps on the head. ;-)

 

[Vladimir]

Of course they do. This is why AKG changed the K701 from 7 to 8 bumps on the headband. People complained on comfort, not willing to wait for the material to soften with use (aerofoam). But that perpetuated the myth of AKG secretly tuning the headphones without telling anyone. Now there is a word on the internet streets how there is brighter K701 s/n < 31,000 and warmer sounding s/n > 31,000 that is exactly like the Q701, which explains, they say, why K and Q now may (or may not) sound the same.

People kept complaining even at 8 bumps and lack of bass so AKG made an experimental limited series without the bumps and with better sealing cups (mo' bass) called the 65th Anniversary Edition. 65th? Seriosly? Yet people ate it up. The 65th was deemed amazing sounding. Among the best AKGs ever. Then the 65th went into regular production under the name K712 and people perpetuated the myth how they both sound different and are not the same. (they are the same)

May I add, no blind listening tests were performed by anyone since 2005 when all this began. Cans were dissasembled, service manuals were analyzed, measurements were taken, endless hours of A/B testing and writing... but no double blind testing. Not one in 10 years.

In not so many words, AKG created the flattest best headphone they can, the K701/702. Due to people wanting mo'bass, mo' comfort etc. AKG (Harman) kept changing the cans in different versions to please everyone, effectively ruining it but yielding huge sales. The K712 is not flat, its muddy, bass leaks in the mid range, the soundstage is narrow, harmonics are ruined and separation is now congested... It's just not the reference headphone it once was.

Audiophiles don't really want fidelity. They just want to shop arround and brag about it. Whatever you do in this hobby leads to a purchase (there's a hint for you). It's not about the music, it's not even about the sound. It's all shopping!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Distortion, clipping....?

No crusade - Thing is you hear a difference.

Myths, religion, delusions.....you hear a difference, chances are they'd hear the same differences too on your set.

And it's a difficult situation to be in - on the one hand you hear a difference for whatever reason, so like me you're a crazy deluded fool according to the enlightened around here.

On the other hand there is 'no difference' and you're stupid for spending your money chasing better.
According to the same fo....enlightened people.

Any other thread I'd ask you what are the differences and be happy to discuss what nuances you can pick out of your music with the Hegel v M2

It's a hifi forum after all.

Instead you're defensive - like I'm the villian, wanting to impose my will over everyone - on a crusade to convert.

Lol....

Apparently the human ear can detect a billionth of change in air pressure / spl.

SteveR750.... This is the thing.

You, a perfectly rational man can come on this forum and say you can hear differences between 2 amps - well built, fairly expensive, well designed amps.

You know it's not placebo.

Somebody's wrong. Either you're a deluded idiot and you're wrong (because there is no difference to be heard) or they are idiots who don't know what they're talking about.

I've been doing a little amp swapping myself and can hear differences too.....lol.

atthat

The theme running through the forum att....

You get a different presentation from 2 'well' built and designed amps....That's surprising.

Question is SteveR740 are you deluded, a religious fanatic a fool or do those saying it all sound the same wrong?

With reference your particular findings?

We need more of this stuff, and this, even if it's less than half finished...

I'd like to see someone taking a set and testing them until they die (the phones not the tester!) just to see if the results ever stabilise or continue to change throughout the life of the phones/speakers/etc.

It would be interesting if the guy put the ambient temperature alongside the graph to see if that, if it fluctuates, affects the drivers.

A look at amp 'sound'.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-sound-of-an-amplifier

Absolutely! It's nowhere near a complete test, but it's a start. Thanks for the link too, interesting. The one thing the Hegel amp is suposed to be good at it low harmonic and non harmonic distortion, and it really does sound different from the Caspian that it replaced, and that definitley is not a placebo, I can hear spoken words on certain tracks that I have not heard to been able to distinguish. It's logical really; a distortion free digital to analogue conversion, a distortion free electrical gain, and then distortion free electrical signal to sound pressure wave would all sound the same (in the same room). So, you could argue that all amps do sound the same, and if they were designed well enough, they should. The differences we can hear are shortcomings of the design.?

Again, it comes down to the preference for listeining to something as close to the original source, warts and all; or whether a tailored sound is preferable, given it's a leisure experience, not a critical task that we are asking our systems to perform. There is no right or wrong, it's simply down to personal preference. For amny years I have believed that B&O gear is not really "hi-fi", and to many it's not, but that does not mean it cannot (and should not) be enjoyed for what it is. The crime is to waste your money on buying something that you think / told should be "right" but you don't enjoy!

?

If I understood your question, I'd be able to answer it, but if I have got the gist of it, well, just because it's not right, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Meantime, read this, and make your own Fletcher Munson curve. You could then match yours to others and hey presto, be able to trust someone elses ears for you. (I'm not being serious by the way, just in case... )

Distortion, or lack of it. Read the links I gave you, and research clipping, and recovery from, just for starters. There's enough to suggest reasons why they don't all sound exactly the same.?

I'm puzzled why though a mythbuster feels so obligated to bust said myths? Is it some kind of moral crusade to prevent poor fools being separated from their cash? Or maybe some more altruistic motivation that the rest of society is (also) missing (the point of).

 

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Lol.... Is this delusion or paranoia?

Have you done any blind testing on these earphones Vlad?

Taken them apart etc.

If not why not please do and then post your findings.... I'd read it.

Of course they do. This is why AKG changed the K701 from 7 to 8 bumps on the headband. People complained on comfort, not willing to wait for the material to soften with use (aerofoam). But that perpetuated the myth of AKG secretly tuning the headphones without telling anyone. Now there is a word on the internet streets how there is brighter K701 s/n < 31,000 and warmer sounding s/n > 31,000 that is exactly like the Q701, which explains, they say, why K and Q now may (or may not) sound the same.?

People kept complaining even at 8 bumps and lack of bass so AKG made an experimental limited series without the bumps and with better sealing cups (mo' bass) called the 65th Anniversary Edition. 65th? Seriosly? Yet people ate it up. The 65th was deemed amazing sounding. Among the best AKGs ever. Then the 65th went into regular production under the name K712 and people perpetuated the myth how they both sound different and are not the same. (they are the same)

May I add, no blind listening tests were performed by anyone since 2005 when all this began. Cans were dissasembled, service manuals were analyzed, measurements were taken, endless hours of A/B testing and writing... but no double blind testing. Not one in 10 years.

In not so many words, AKG created the flattest best headphone they can, the K701/702. Due to people wanting mo'bass, mo' comfort etc. AKG (Harman) kept changing the cans in different versions to please everyone, effectively ruining it but yielding huge sales. The K712 is not flat, its muddy, bass leaks in the mid range, the soundstage is narrow, harmonics are ruined and separation is now congested... It's just not the reference headphone it once was.?

Audiophiles don't really want fidelity. They just want to shop arround and brag about it. Whatever you do in this hobby leads to a purchase (there's a hint for you). It's not about the music, it's not even about the sound. It's all shopping!

 

[Vladimir]

I was high on WD40 when I wrote that.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Check your supplier man, he may be cutting it with rat s41? or something by the sounds of it......

.....

I was high on WD40 when I wrote that.

 

[Vladimir]

This rum tea should balance it out.

 

[Vladimir]

Lol.... Is this delusion or paranoia?

Have you done any blind testing on these earphones Vlad?

Taken them apart etc.

If not why not please do and then post your findings.... I'd read it.

I don't own all of them so I cant perform ABX. I've not taken them appart but everyone else has, feel free to browse for images and there are detailed parts schematics on AKG website. Look for measurements as well. No differences except for measuring error tolerances.

I only had chance to try the K701 and K712 and my impressions were the K712 was a bloated version of the K701 with nicer ear pads. Didn't have the K702 and Q701 to compare against the K701, or K702 Annie vs K712s.

If you can finance this testing I'd be willing to do it with all 5 variations of the AKG x7xx. First such test ever made. You will be sponsoring a historic event.

 

[SteveR750]

Distortion, clipping....?

No crusade - Thing is you hear a difference.

Myths, religion, delusions.....you hear a difference, chances are they'd hear the same differences too on your set.

And it's a difficult situation to be in - on the one hand you hear a difference for whatever reason, so like me you're a crazy deluded fool according to the enlightened around here.

On the other hand there is 'no difference' and you're stupid for spending your money chasing better. According to the same fo....enlightened people.

Any other thread I'd ask you what are the differences and be happy to discuss what nuances you can pick out of your music with the Hegel v M2

It's a hifi forum after all.

Instead you're defensive - like I'm the villian, wanting to impose my will over everyone - on a crusade to convert.

Lol....

Apparently the human ear can detect a billionth of change in air pressure / spl.

Sorry Thomson, I wasn't having a pop at you.

It might well all be explained as distortion, but we clearly hear it, and prefer different variants of it assuming its there.

I started another thread on the Hegel, you're more than welcome to participate in that one.

 

[cheeseboy]

There you go referring to me again......

Thing is cheeseboy if your so confident then why don't you do just that.

Go make yourself a fortune......

All cable suppliers are conmen, it all sounds the same, so go ahead make your cable company and get rich.

Where I have said "all cables sound the same"? Or are you just trolling...again?

edit: yes, i'm using the word troll because I've made my stance painfully clear on many occasions, yet you still like to refer to the old all sounds the same bs as a way to try and discredit anything I've said, when in fact I've never said that, so until you stop making up things I've never said then I will refer to you as a troll from now on, or at least until you have to good grace to stop making things up.

 

[andyjm]

On a slightly lighter note, I notice that I was the only audio engineer who posted on this thread.

I was disqualified earlier on (unfairly in my opinion) for being retired, but I have got to believe that at least counts for something. Perhaps we could agree that I count for 1/2 an engineer in employement?

In which case, the answer to the OP's question would appear to be 0.5

 

[Thompsonuxb]

There you go referring to me again......

Thing is cheeseboy if your so confident then why don't you do just that.

Go make yourself a fortune......

All cable suppliers are conmen, it all sounds the same, so go ahead make your cable company and get rich.

Where I have said "all cables sound the same"?  Or are you just trolling...again?

?

edit: yes,  i'm using the word troll because I've made my stance painfully clear on many occasions, yet you still like to refer to the old all sounds the same bs as a way to try and discredit anything I've said, when in fact I've never said that, so until you stop making up things I've never said then I will refer to you as a troll from now on, or at least until you have to good grace to stop making things up.

What!?....... *crazy*

 

[Thompsonuxb]

What's an Audio Engineer.....?

On a slightly lighter note, I notice that I was the only audio engineer who posted on this thread.

I was disqualified earlier on (unfairly in my opinion) for being retired, but I have got to believe that at least counts for something.  Perhaps we could agree that I count for 1/2 an engineer in employement?

In which case, the answer to the OP's question would appear to be 0.5

 

[cheeseboy]

What!?....... *crazy*

if you can't understand something like that, then I guess it explains it all really.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

We? need more of this stuff, and this, even if it's less than half finished...

?

would be nice, but I think sir troll UXB single handedly proved why very few people with the technical nouse would bother to post.  Like i said the other day, I could make a cable company that uses the exact same cables, except for colour, write a load of BS about how the green one is bass heavy, and the red one is good for mids, and people would believe it.  I could then come out publicly, say it was all twaddle, show pictures of how it's all made and that they are indeed all the same, but there would be people who would not believe me.  There's nothing you can do when faced with that.  Nothing at all.

You Sir are strange.

Here I am encouraging you to go forth and get rich - it being so easy an all - and you get upset.

Going so far as to threaten me - letting me know from this day you will be calling me troll......

Seriously how do you get like that...... Lol.

All I can say is knock yourself out Cheeseboy

Normally I'd ask you if I read intimidated, I'd request you read my post several times to squint if you have to and read me again....lol, let me stop

*crazy*

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Sorry folks but looks like this thread is now officially de-railed.

If the mods don't lock it, it could get pretty sarcastic and things like that......Lol

 

[SteveR750]

On a slightly lighter note, I notice that I was the only audio engineer who posted on this thread.

I was disqualified earlier on (unfairly in my opinion) for being retired, but I have got to believe that at least counts for something. Perhaps we could agree that I count for 1/2 an engineer in employement?

In which case, the answer to the OP's question would appear to be 0.5

Back to the OP (in an ettempt to re-rail it), Andy what did you do, and where? I don't think retirement has any bearing, experience counts for lot you know!