How do I get more detailed bass?

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WinterRacer

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FrankHarveyHiFi said:
About as sweeping as your headphone statement :)

Fair point.

FrankHarveyHiFi said:
All speakers are trying to convey bass as accurately as possible, or as accurately as their design allows.

and, IME, active designs allow a more accurate representation.

FrankHarveyHiFi said:
It may well be worth it, but all he has to do is change his speakers in order to utilise the excellent pre and power amplifier that he already has.

Which may prove a cheaper way of getting the sound the OP wants.

Still I'll leave it there as I've made my point regarding an audition.
 

Devondave

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Speaker stands can make a huge difference

Also worth a look at your cables.

Good interconnects and speaker cable work wonders

Also look at mains leads and if you cant swap them put M&K plugs on sounds daft but it really works.

Cheers

Dave
 
WinterRacer said:
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
All speakers are trying to convey bass as accurately as possible, or as accurately as their design allows.

and, IME, active designs allow a more accurate representation.

Hi WinterRacer

Ime, effectively designed active speakers do indeed allow for a more accurate and may i also say therefore a more natural reproduction.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft
 

Overdose

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So mattc76,

To solve your problems, you have the options of replacing your deficiant preamp or power amp, or perhaps adding another power amp. You could replace your speakers, change your stands, change your mains cables and interconnects, add some accoustic treatment to your room, or junk most of your kit for some actives.

Good luck. ;)

Flippancy aside, only you will know just what it is that is missing in your system and only you will know when it's right. Your best chance is to maybe take the more extreme options on demonstration or audition.
 

mattc76

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Dear All,

Thank you all for your superb replies - I am pleased to have sparked off an interesting and lively discussion.

What has dawned on me though throughout this thread is that my strategy of buying things second hand off eBay for "prolonged auditioning" while being a financially sound strategy, is not necessarily the best way of finding the best speakers - if I buy something that sounds good I might keep it and miss out on the something that sounds amazing! I think I need direct comparisons and the only way of achieving this is my local hifi dealer. So I'm going to arrange a demo of some PM1s, A6s, and whatever else the dealer recommends in that price bracket (I'm loving the AE reference 1s on looks alone!). I'm going to take along tracks that I know really well in all different genres, and be completely open minded, I'm going to listen to a whole load of different kit and see what happens. All very exciting and I can't believe I've not done it before! It may have to be a job for the new year though but I shall keep you all informed!

Thanks again,

Matt
 
A

Anonymous

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Remember that the time, effort and experience that a dealer puts into helping you should be considered part of your overall buying equation once you find what it is you are looking for.

I say this as someone who is just an average punter.

Agreed with the guy also who says cables make a difference. In my opinion, they can and do affect presentation.
 

lindsayt

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FrankHarveyHiFi said:
I think you need to read the OP's requirements again. He's NOT after bass extension. He doesn't need wardrobes to get what he needs.

I think you need to read my posts again.

To put it simply:

You can't have bass detail if you don't have bass extension because you don't have any bass there to be detailed. The bass has been sucked-out by the speaker's lack of extension.

How can something be detailed if it isn't there at all? Or isn't there in sufficient volume to be easily heard?

Or to be more precise:

If the bass is 6 or more dbs down a huge amount of detail is going to be lost because it will be too quiet when the rest of the band is playing or singing. It will be buried in the mix. Even 3dbs is bad in a medium to large lsitening room, because that's -3db at 1 metre and bass is less directional than the higher frequencies - so more of it will have been lost by the time it reaches the listeners ears.

With unextended speakers you may get some detail in the upper bass. You will be progressively losing it in the mid-bass and will have lost it in the lower bass. Lower to mid-bass is important for instruments like kick drums and bass guitars - which are used a lot on rock and pop recordings. This bass area is essential for 32 foot organ pipes.
 

Frank Harvey

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lindsayt said:
You can't have bass detail if you don't have bass extension because you don't have any bass there to be detailed. The bass has been sucked-out by the speaker's lack of extension.

How can something be detailed if it isn't there at all? Or isn't there in sufficient volume to be easily heard?
Bass down to 50Hz is hardly lacking really is it? It's not like a pair of average sized standmounts are only producing midrange and treble is it? By the sounds of it, you seem to think that bass units on small speakers are pointless...

However deep a speaker goes, there is still detail and articulation within the bass that they do produce. By your rationale, everyone with a standmount speaker has no bass detail at all, and this quality is only enjoyed by those with speakers half the size of their living room.

If the bass is 6 or more dbs down a huge amount of detail is going to be lost because it will be too quiet when the rest of the band is playing or singing. It will be buried in the mix. Even 3dbs is bad in a medium to large lsitening room, because that's -3db at 1 metre and bass is less directional than the higher frequencies - so more of it will have been lost by the time it reaches the listeners ears.
See, what you're talking about is having the entire bass range at the user's disposal - I agree that certain detail will be lost of a speaker rolls off early, but there's still detail in what is being produced.

With unextended speakers you may get some detail in the upper bass. You will be progressively losing it in the mid-bass and will have lost it in the lower bass. Lower to mid-bass is important for instruments like kick drums and bass guitars - which are used a lot on rock and pop recordings. This bass area is essential for 32 foot organ pipes.
Again, you're basically saying that standmount speakers are useless - I'm sure a certain 'standmounts are best' company would have something to say about that. Although, they've changed their tune now. I feel, particularly at the more budget end of things, that standmounts can produce more detail and articulation within the bass range they deal with, in comparison to equivalently priced floorstanding loudspeakers. I'd like to add that that's just a generalisation of course, before this blows up into an even more pointless discussion.

Personally, I'm more interested in whether a speaker sounds like it's producing music rather than just noise.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
MUSICRAFT said:
mattc76 said:
Dear All,

My current setup consists of Cyrus DAC XP + PSX-R, X-Power, and B&W CM1 speakers. Whilst the treble and mids are beautifully sweet with great separation and "air" between instruments so you can hear each individual element (improved a lot by the addition of the PSXR on the DAC), I don't get the same clarity/definition with the bass. The bass is definitely there but it is difficult to pick out and follow on most tracks. I am thinking that I have reached the performance limits on the CM1s as they are definitely the "cheapest" component in the whole setup. I really like the B&W sound with my setup so was wondering if the only real option is to carry on up the ladder maybe with some second hand 805s's? Or maybe save up and go for the PM1s?!

Im not necessarily after earth shattering bass but what I do want is real clarity, detail and separation in the bass region as well as the mids and treble!?

Thanks all for your help!

Matt

Hi Matt

I feel that in the first instance you should look at alternative makes of pre amplification.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Seriously, dude! Have ever heard a Cyrus Pre-amp. Because I have and most of them have been excellent, and when it comes to the DAC XP+ it's probably the best Pre/Dac combo I've heard under £5K!!

The first thing I'd look at if I wasn't getting the bass I wanted or thought I should be getting would be the CM1's, though are very good little speakers - but they are not on par with the rest of the system. ProAc Response D Two's are well worth entertaining if you were thinking of changing
 
Floydian said:
MUSICRAFT said:
mattc76 said:
Dear All,

My current setup consists of Cyrus DAC XP + PSX-R, X-Power, and B&W CM1 speakers. Whilst the treble and mids are beautifully sweet with great separation and "air" between instruments so you can hear each individual element (improved a lot by the addition of the PSXR on the DAC), I don't get the same clarity/definition with the bass. The bass is definitely there but it is difficult to pick out and follow on most tracks. I am thinking that I have reached the performance limits on the CM1s as they are definitely the "cheapest" component in the whole setup. I really like the B&W sound with my setup so was wondering if the only real option is to carry on up the ladder maybe with some second hand 805s's? Or maybe save up and go for the PM1s?!

Im not necessarily after earth shattering bass but what I do want is real clarity, detail and separation in the bass region as well as the mids and treble!?

Thanks all for your help!

Matt

Hi Matt

I feel that in the first instance you should look at alternative makes of pre amplification.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Seriously, dude! Have ever heard a Cyrus Pre-amp. Because I have and most of them have been excellent, and when it comes to the DAC XP+ it's probably the best Pre/Dac combo I've heard under £5K!!

The first thing I'd look at if I wasn't getting the bass I wanted or thought I should be getting would be the CM1's, though are very good little speakers - but they are not on par with the rest of the system. ProAc Response D Two's are well worth entertaining if you were thinking of changing

Hi Floydian

You are more than welcome to differ from me however in the first instance i'll still recommend that alternative makes of pre amplification are looked at.

Imo, Cyrus pre amplifiers are not on par with the standard of their source components and power amps. Therefore at present i feel it will be better instead to ultilize stronger quality of pre amplification so as to help further unlock or near as completely unlock the potential of the associated electronics in the system.

Btw, what system do you use please?

All the best dude :)

Rick @ Musicraft
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
MUSICRAFT said:
Floydian said:
MUSICRAFT said:
mattc76 said:
Dear All,

My current setup consists of Cyrus DAC XP + PSX-R, X-Power, and B&W CM1 speakers. Whilst the treble and mids are beautifully sweet with great separation and "air" between instruments so you can hear each individual element (improved a lot by the addition of the PSXR on the DAC), I don't get the same clarity/definition with the bass. The bass is definitely there but it is difficult to pick out and follow on most tracks. I am thinking that I have reached the performance limits on the CM1s as they are definitely the "cheapest" component in the whole setup. I really like the B&W sound with my setup so was wondering if the only real option is to carry on up the ladder maybe with some second hand 805s's? Or maybe save up and go for the PM1s?!

Im not necessarily after earth shattering bass but what I do want is real clarity, detail and separation in the bass region as well as the mids and treble!?

Thanks all for your help!

Matt

Hi Matt

I feel that in the first instance you should look at alternative makes of pre amplification.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Seriously, dude! Have ever heard a Cyrus Pre-amp. Because I have and most of them have been excellent, and when it comes to the DAC XP+ it's probably the best Pre/Dac combo I've heard under £5K!!

The first thing I'd look at if I wasn't getting the bass I wanted or thought I should be getting would be the CM1's, though are very good little speakers - but they are not on par with the rest of the system. ProAc Response D Two's are well worth entertaining if you were thinking of changing

Hi Floydian

You are more than welcome to differ from me however in the first instance i'll still recommend that alternative makes of pre amplification are looked at.

Imo, Cyrus pre amplifiers are not on par with the standard of their source components and power amps. Therefore at present i feel it will be better instead to ultilize stronger quality of pre amplification so as to help further unlock or near as completely unlock the potential of the associated electronics in the system.

Btw, what system do you use please?

All the best dude :)

Rick @ Musicraft

Let me guess, not a Cyrus dealer then?????

I use Rotel and KEF
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
Floydian said:
....the DAC XP+ it's probably the best Pre/Dac combo I've heard under £5K!!

Indeed Floydian. The DACxp is the strongest component in the OP's system, and is probably our best selling pre-amplifier.

That doesn't surprise me -- stunning piece of kit!!
 
Floydian said:
MUSICRAFT said:
Floydian said:
MUSICRAFT said:
mattc76 said:
Dear All,

My current setup consists of Cyrus DAC XP + PSX-R, X-Power, and B&W CM1 speakers. Whilst the treble and mids are beautifully sweet with great separation and "air" between instruments so you can hear each individual element (improved a lot by the addition of the PSXR on the DAC), I don't get the same clarity/definition with the bass. The bass is definitely there but it is difficult to pick out and follow on most tracks. I am thinking that I have reached the performance limits on the CM1s as they are definitely the "cheapest" component in the whole setup. I really like the B&W sound with my setup so was wondering if the only real option is to carry on up the ladder maybe with some second hand 805s's? Or maybe save up and go for the PM1s?!

Im not necessarily after earth shattering bass but what I do want is real clarity, detail and separation in the bass region as well as the mids and treble!?

Thanks all for your help!

Matt

Hi Matt

I feel that in the first instance you should look at alternative makes of pre amplification.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Seriously, dude! Have ever heard a Cyrus Pre-amp. Because I have and most of them have been excellent, and when it comes to the DAC XP+ it's probably the best Pre/Dac combo I've heard under £5K!!

The first thing I'd look at if I wasn't getting the bass I wanted or thought I should be getting would be the CM1's, though are very good little speakers - but they are not on par with the rest of the system. ProAc Response D Two's are well worth entertaining if you were thinking of changing

Hi Floydian

You are more than welcome to differ from me however in the first instance i'll still recommend that alternative makes of pre amplification are looked at.

Imo, Cyrus pre amplifiers are not on par with the standard of their source components and power amps. Therefore at present i feel it will be better instead to ultilize stronger quality of pre amplification so as to help further unlock or near as completely unlock the potential of the associated electronics in the system.

Btw, what system do you use please?

All the best dude :)

Rick @ Musicraft

Let me guess, not a Cyrus dealer then?????

I use Rotel and KEF

Hi Floydian

Thanks for your reply dude.

But then again as Cyrus dealer i never sold any Cyrus pre amplifiers. Anyway i am glad that you like the DAC XP+ and i trust that if you ever do go for one then it will be an easy transaction :)

All the best dude

Rick @ Musicraft
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
MUSICRAFT said:
Floydian said:
MUSICRAFT said:
Floydian said:
MUSICRAFT said:
mattc76 said:
Dear All,

My current setup consists of Cyrus DAC XP + PSX-R, X-Power, and B&W CM1 speakers. Whilst the treble and mids are beautifully sweet with great separation and "air" between instruments so you can hear each individual element (improved a lot by the addition of the PSXR on the DAC), I don't get the same clarity/definition with the bass. The bass is definitely there but it is difficult to pick out and follow on most tracks. I am thinking that I have reached the performance limits on the CM1s as they are definitely the "cheapest" component in the whole setup. I really like the B&W sound with my setup so was wondering if the only real option is to carry on up the ladder maybe with some second hand 805s's? Or maybe save up and go for the PM1s?!

Im not necessarily after earth shattering bass but what I do want is real clarity, detail and separation in the bass region as well as the mids and treble!?

Thanks all for your help!

Matt

Hi Matt

I feel that in the first instance you should look at alternative makes of pre amplification.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Seriously, dude! Have ever heard a Cyrus Pre-amp. Because I have and most of them have been excellent, and when it comes to the DAC XP+ it's probably the best Pre/Dac combo I've heard under £5K!!

The first thing I'd look at if I wasn't getting the bass I wanted or thought I should be getting would be the CM1's, though are very good little speakers - but they are not on par with the rest of the system. ProAc Response D Two's are well worth entertaining if you were thinking of changing

Hi Floydian

You are more than welcome to differ from me however in the first instance i'll still recommend that alternative makes of pre amplification are looked at.

Imo, Cyrus pre amplifiers are not on par with the standard of their source components and power amps. Therefore at present i feel it will be better instead to ultilize stronger quality of pre amplification so as to help further unlock or near as completely unlock the potential of the associated electronics in the system.

Btw, what system do you use please?

All the best dude :)

Rick @ Musicraft

Let me guess, not a Cyrus dealer then?????

I use Rotel and KEF

Hi Floydian

Thanks for your reply dude.

But then again as Cyrus dealer i never sold any Cyrus pre amplifiers. Anyway i am glad that you like the DAC XP+ and i trust that if you ever do go for one then it will be an easy transaction :)

All the best dude

Rick @ Musicraft

I suppose taht's the beauty of having so many different options when it comes to buying electronics. Everyone will prefer different set-ups.
 

Gazzip

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Jan 15, 2011
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mattc76 said:
Dear All,

My current setup consists of Cyrus DAC XP + PSX-R, X-Power, and B&W CM1 speakers. Whilst the treble and mids are beautifully sweet with great separation and "air" between instruments so you can hear each individual element (improved a lot by the addition of the PSXR on the DAC), I don't get the same clarity/definition with the bass. The bass is definitely there but it is difficult to pick out and follow on most tracks. I am thinking that I have reached the performance limits on the CM1s as they are definitely the "cheapest" component in the whole setup. I really like the B&W sound with my setup so was wondering if the only real option is to carry on up the ladder maybe with some second hand 805s's? Or maybe save up and go for the PM1s?!

Im not necessarily after earth shattering bass but what I do want is real clarity, detail and separation in the bass region as well as the mids and treble!?

Thanks all for your help!

Matt

Hi there. I have the almost identical system to you. Only difference is that I have a PSX-R on the power amp as well. I also had the same problem with bass. Having tried a number of different speakers from the likes of MA and EB Acoustics I eventually settled on a pair of KEF R300's. They are immense value for money. Straight out of the box they were great but now, a month on, they are truly wonderful. Give 'em a try. Bet you're impressed.....
 

Thumpa

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I also would be looking right at those speakers ... PMC DB1i or TB2i. The DBs are half the cost of the PMs -- but if you really like the sound of your B&Ws then maybe have a listen to the CM5s which WHF says have 'powerful bass', you already know the style.

But PMCs will give you 'real clarity, detail and separation in the bass region as well as the mids and treble'. And Cyrus is a perfect match...

The TB2is would be brilliant, IMHO. [I haven't heard these, unfortunately, but a less expensive and beautiful looking alternative: the t-line Castle Knight floorstanders; the 4 is a small speaker, just 840mm H and 12.5kg ... and no need for stands]
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
One option is to try out an altogether different range of speakers - to me the whole CM series sounds a touch 'bass thin' for my taste, including the CM9's which are supposed to have far more bass presence and extension than the 1's. I don't know whether the PM series is an improvement in bass presence; in quality, yes, but not presence. Another option is to buy a music dedicated subwoofer, like a Velodyne SPL or a Sunfire HRS, but not a HT dedicated sub no matter how much it costs. Although many who have a dedicated two channel system scoff at such an idea, set properly (adjusted so you can barely hear it) you can achieve an astounding sense of extension and depth without it being obvious or intruding, and without any neighbour even knowing you own one. This sort of set up can cure a good portion of your bass ills, so long as the mid bass frequencies are already to your liking...Ideally, you would be able to get Dave Holland to play along to your music (my favourite option!) but alas this doesn't even happen in my dreams... Unfortunately, speakers that have considerable bass presence tend to be less than entry level units with flatulant overbearing bass aimed at the teenager market. That said, for rock music and plenty of bass, and while still being a more than entry level quality speaker, you can't go past the Aviano range by Mordaunt Short (Aviano 2, 6 and 8, but not the 1's) for taut bass presence. The Aviano 8's have killer bass while maintaing detail and clarity in the mids and treble. Of course, the CM1's have more warmth in the mids and sound sweeter in the treble, but not by as much as you'd think, and as far as detail is concerned I've heard cymbals nice and clear on the Avianos where on the CM's they sound muted and vague by their very airiness (a polutant if you ask me)... It's a trade off, a compromise, but don't be ashamed to pair cheaper speakers, at aleast for the purpose of a trial. Blind test yourself in a store and you will be surprised how some cheaper model speakers sound by comparison to the CM1's. Taste is relative and subjective, but if you are honest with yourself you'll surely find something that will make you happy. Of course, be very aware of the type of listening room you are hearing the speakers in - this is easy to foget when you are being blown away by something that is relying heavily on the extreme decorum they are relying on - no good listening to speakers in a heavily padded listening showroom while at home you have floorboards and minimal furniture, and vice versa. Now that you own a pair of CM1's, use this to your advantage and go to a showroom that stocks CM1's as well as the rest of your set up and listen to as many different speakers as you can (backwards and forwards, for as long as it takes) with music that you know well, especially the bass parts, and you will get a great idea about what will and won't suit your needs. By this method, and many months of trial, I have made myself very happy with my system and would not trade it for anything else (Harman Kardon CD 990 and HK 990 + MS Performance 6). Maybe the MS Performance 2's would suit your space and needs? I suggest you give them a go and see how they compare to the CM1's.
 

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